Bam Bam Baklava
Member
All these polls with 20 percent undecided. How long are they going to keep up this charade of not pushing leaners at all? July?
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam
- Thread starter Spoiled Milk
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JesseEwiak
Member
Until ratings start to drop.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I hate it when people compare anything to Idiocracy, a movie which boils down to "Ha ha, the poors are too stupid to understand birth control, much less why they vote the way they do!"
It's also an oversimplification of Trump supporters to cast them in that light. The white working class base is broke as fuck, on drugs, and have been told that every other group is gaining power at their expense. They're desperate, misinformed, and ignorant maybe, but not dumb. Or at any rate, not particularly dumber than any other bloc of voters.
It's also an oversimplification of Trump supporters to cast them in that light. The white working class base is broke as fuck, on drugs, and have been told that every other group is gaining power at their expense. They're desperate, misinformed, and ignorant maybe, but not dumb. Or at any rate, not particularly dumber than any other bloc of voters.
whyamihere
Banned
Interesting that Trump said that Bernie was "Crazy Bernie Sanders", because Crazy feels easier to attack than Crooked.
Also, Crooked Hillary does not roll of the tongue like Crazy Bernie. Sad!
Also, Crooked Hillary does not roll of the tongue like Crazy Bernie. Sad!
Black Mamba
Member
No, it really should be characterized as such. Trump is a buffoon.
whyamihere
Banned
I see that Gleenwald is gleefully posting the Reuters poll that had Clinton up only by 1. Either report on aggregate polling or some other balanced representation. Cherry picking is misleading and poor standards
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Greenwald quit caring about standards years ago.
Black Mamba
Member
Trump is promising the moon...and then mars and pluto and even some space rock to be named later.
He wants to cut taxes by $10-20 trillion on top of the predicted $9 trillion added debt or so to come but will somehow end up with $7 trillion in surplus.
But yeah, it's wrong for Chait to characterize people as dumb for voting for him.
whyamihere
Banned
I used to respect him a lot during the Snowden leaks, but he's become endlessly vindictive and petty.
So there is a such thing, both in terms of polling and enthusiasm, as a post-primary bounce. And a post-convention bounce. And a post-debate bounce for the winner, usually the first debate giving the biggest bounce, because as the second and third come along, more people have made up their minds.
What's important for a campaign now would be laying the groundwork for campaign infrastructure, GOTV, etc. so that they're ready to make full use of these enthusiasm bounces to recruit volunteers, canvassers, phonebankers, etc. and also to capitalize on any polling bounce.
What's important for a campaign now would be laying the groundwork for campaign infrastructure, GOTV, etc. so that they're ready to make full use of these enthusiasm bounces to recruit volunteers, canvassers, phonebankers, etc. and also to capitalize on any polling bounce.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
Trump is a buffoon, absolutely. Mocking people who vote for him as simply stupid, on the other hand, is an easy way to hand wave any legitimate concerns that they might have (and might be thinking that they can rectify by voting for Trump) that lay underneath the racism and other such bullshit.
That piece is basically "Wow, how is everyone who disagrees with me so dumb?" bullshit that belongs in the comment section of a Politico article. It sucks.
jack_package_200
Banned
It annoys me to see people I know praising Trump supporters for going and voting for Bernie in West Virginia.
Thats the very reason Closed Primaries should exist. So the otherside does not astroturf the other's election.
But as long as it helps Bernie its a ok.
Thats the very reason Closed Primaries should exist. So the otherside does not astroturf the other's election.
But as long as it helps Bernie its a ok.
That's Greenwald.
A couple of months back, he wrote a passionate article denouncing the release of police telephone recordings to the public that involved politicians in Brazil.
Him, of all people.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Trump's victory can't entirely be put down to racism or stupidity in the Republican party. If he'd had some remotely competent or even morally upright opposition, willing to say things that are actually unpopular with the Trump base, they could have buried him. As is, he's just more of the same, but shiny and new.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm struggling to envision a scenario where the polling gets closer absent Hillary turning out to have killed a guy in the 80s.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Sure it can, you just have to apportion the stupidity to things like letting 19 candidates (or however many they ran) run in the primary instead of narrowing it down to a reasonable number of electable guys.
Black Mamba
Member
Eh, that's not really it.
For one, it calls the GOP Leadership idiots, which they fucking are and I've been saying as much for years. And not for their policy proposals but rather how they conduct their operations. Allowing Trump to hijack the party is the ultimate demonstration of their idiocy.
(basically, the GOP gave up the strong arm control that guys like Gingrich and Pelosi have wielded in favor of a laissez faire approach which resulting in predictably stupid results)
For the other, the voters are idiots to be duped by Trump. Chait actually kind of addressed the criticism, btw
And I don't think he's hand waving them. He's just stating what, IMO, is true.
Regardless, it's the same argument I've made for years on Poli-Gaf. I've said it numerous times. Voters are idiots, at least when it comes to voting. Not because they vote for someone other than who I support, but because often times they are duped by idiotic ideas that have been proven to not work/be right or because they vote against their interests willingly over an idiotic thing (I agree 95% with X but X supports gay marriage which has no effect on me so Y!)
As an example, If you believe Obama is a Kenyan, you're an idiot. That's all there is to it. I see nothing wrong in pointing this out.
Retromelon
Member
Obama isn't of kenyan ancestry?!
That's just because no one had heard of Bernie then. But the revolution marched on undaunted and Bernie's message spread.
Now, he is internet famous and the choice of the people. By next month, the Earth will be a gestalt intelligence united in its support for Sanders.
Black Mamba
Member
I know people think Warren maybe should be VP after her willingness to attack Trump, but I completely disagree.
I think in this election Hillary needs someone more above it all than an attack dog. The Trump campaign is going to be unclassy and the hillary ticket has to represent the opposite.
But Warren is proving herself to be a great surrogate once the GE is officially under way. She can continue to attack him, especially on the weekend news shows, without real fear of consequence. And if Trump directly goes after her on TV and such, it will be a much worse look for him and he will be diverting attention away from Hillary's ticket.
She needs to go at him non-stop and not be on the ticket, IMO.
Macho Madness
Member
Today in You Fell For It
Trump said he wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare months ago.
But he's a secret liberal, I just know it.
Trump said he wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare months ago.
But he's a secret liberal, I just know it.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
Anyone have a Venn diagram for racists, idiots and conservatives?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Reposting cuz the last page went wonky:
I don't think anyone was close to the H.A. Goodman title so no brownie points for anyone. He bested us, Poli-Gaf.
On another note, Jonathon Chait has the absolute best take on Donald Trump winning the nom. Basically, it boils down to Occam's razor. Ignore the media stuff, disorganization, etc. Trump won because Republicans are idiots. Also, alludes to Idiocracy (something I argued months ago!!!).
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/05/heres-the-real-reason-we-all-underrated-trump.html
This line is so much real talk, I love it:
No this misses the point. They're not idiot's (they're better educated than most dem voters)
They media missed because they didn't realize that race is the bedrock of the party not it's policies and ideas.
The GOP has more racists than the media wanted to admit.
jack_package_200
Banned
Joking aside, this election cycle taught me many so called progressives are actually pretty racist as well.
Today in You Fell For It
Trump said he wouldn't cut Social Security or Medicare months ago.
But he's a secret liberal, I just know it.
But he's to the left of Hillary!!!!!
Black Mamba
Member
First off, being educated doesn't make you not an idiot. Ben Carson is a masterful neurosurgeon. Highly educated. Still an idiot. Some of the most obvious idiots are well educated. I've met so many of these people I've lost count.
Also Chait did clarify your complaint:
In essence, he agrees with you. He believes we underrated how many idiots there are. That very well overlaps with racists. Again, racism is idiotic.
ugaboga232
Member
I think more than race its tribalism (of which race is probably the biggest example but a lot of the anti-SJW pushback of places like r/the_donald seem to be much more primarily targeted at young liberals irrespective of race). A lot of trump supporters seem genuinely angry and in a sense fearful which are both very primitive and strong emotions that get privileged access of our logic centers sadly. In a sense I'm saying racism is the chief symptom of the more insidious disease of tribalism that erupts in excessive nationalism, racism, and even a hatred against the establishment that they see as distant from fellow americans but this is just my amateur vaguely scientifically informed opinion.
I don't think they are idiots as in they have less of the G factor/intelligence thingie (whatever that is) but rather they seem to be even more emotionally involved which clouds the more "logical" and smart parts of the brain (I don't know how much better democrats are but there is some vague research that support of liberal policies generally involves more of the so called smart areas of the brain versus the "dumb" areas). Racism for most people does not really seem to be a stance developed from careful consideration of the evidence but rather a far more emotional and fundamental response to the foreign and calling racists idiots (while something I agree with in a sense) misses the bigger picture.
shinra-bansho
Member
I think this election has shown there are plenty of racist self identified liberals.
So what you're saying is... the polling will get closer?
Is this a binary thing, or does it get a percentage closer for each person she killed?
This is important.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Honestly kind of hope she does make Warren her VP.
Trump is already having an extraordinarily difficult time keeping it together against Warren as a mere attack dog. Putting her on the ticket would bait him every single day. And he would fall for it every time. He has an extremely frail ego.
I do like Perez or Bercerra as a way of cultivating Hispanic support, but really, who would vote for that ticket who isn't already repulsed by Trump? He's a walking GOTV machine.
And hey. If Democrats win back the House, the first state of the union would have three women. I would cry.
jack_package_200
Banned
I think I have come to a conclusion the Dem primary and what pushed me to Hillary. I actually liked Sanders in the start of the primary. Its the supporters that turned me away before Sanders started going down the attack path.
It was a "I like your Christ but I don't like your christians" situation.
Why don't they understand that we have their best interests at heart and know whats best for them? Don't they get that Bernie walked with MLK? That makes him a civil rights hero. Why is that so hard to get?
/s
It was a "I like your Christ but I don't like your christians" situation.
Why don't they understand that we have their best interests at heart and know whats best for them? Don't they get that Bernie walked with MLK? That makes him a civil rights hero. Why is that so hard to get?
/s
Voysa Reezun
Banned
I think that most people are capable of learning, but they don't have access or are primed to distrust institutions that teach the facts. That makes them ignorant. It also makes them gullible, which I believe Trump's primary voters are because of economic desperation. Some of them are stupid because some of every group are stupid, but I doubt that they are dumber on average than any other group and need to see empirical data to change my mind on that claim.
Re: What issues that GOP voters get distracted by - If we're talking Trump's coalition, which is mostly blue-collar workers, they're not really giving two fucks about gay marriage or whatever in 2016, at least in terms of voting for a presidential candidate. This is why places like Red State and NRO are like "How can the evangelicals possibly vote for Trump over Cruz?" Because Trump is pushing economic solutions to their problems, because in the end they care about being able to fucking feed and clothe themselves more than anything else.
Are they misinformed or uninformed? Yes. I don't think that 99.9% of Trump voters can explain what protectionism is or make a defense of it as an approach to national economics, for example. Do I think that they're teachable? I'm sure that many of them are, even if they have been socially conditioned so that they probably never will learn why their positions are bad.
Now the GOP leadership? Yeah, they're stupid. I genuinely think Priebus is an idiot, at least. I think that they have been slow to corral the Tea Party issue out of desperation to keep control of the House at the national level after the '08 wipeout, and in trying to do so too late, they have made error after error. Even now, Paul Ryan is still trying to negotiate with the terrorists because he's honestly not too bright.
The voters themselves, at least the Trump voters, I simply see as more scared and desperate than dumb. You might think that's splitting hairs, but I think that it's an important distinction. And I object to comparing anything in real life to Idiocracy, which is a movie about hating the poors who are stupid and fuck too much, unlike the smart upper-class people.
ugaboga232
Member
To be fair, doesn't every supporter who believes in their candidate do that? I'm sure there are posts here with similar logic for trump/clinton/(carson????)
Black Mamba
Member
Sure, I can mostly agree with that. But not all of Trump's supporters were racist. And if you want to put them all under the same umbrella, I think the term works.
I mean, how else would you characterize a non-racist voting for Trump? His ideas are all stupid...at least the ones he somewhat has proclaimed. Everything else is a wild card or he just holds every position at once. And if you're reasoning is simply "he has lots of money," well, what do we call that?
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Hey I hated him back then. I always hate him and wiki leaks. They're horrible people who use leaks to further their adgenda. The original wikileaks cooperation with media outlets and the Pentagon papers is how the media should handle this rather than his biased reporting which has given a false picture of NSA activity in certain areas (namely the internet)
shinra-bansho
Member
Joe Biden has tact? I thought he was meant to be a gaffe machine.
ugaboga232
Member
I agree that all of his ideas are stupid but I think simply a lot of people don't know why they do the things they do. A lot of people like to think they hold smart, well reasoned, purely evidenced based views but I think a lot of people like trump for his mannerisms, way he talks, and basically everything except the facts and use crappy rationalizations to outwardly explain their support not realizing that its really just emotions.
Tl;dr stupidity and rationality don't really apply to emotionally held beliefs (doesn't change that trump's plans are all shitty but in reality how many people outside of threads like this or even in threads like this actually care and know enough to figure that out?)
shinra-bansho
Member
Has Warren even endorsed GodEmpress yet?
Also I don't know why we're going to bat at such length for Trump supporters to make them not xenophobic nationalist racists.
Also I don't know why we're going to bat at such length for Trump supporters to make them not xenophobic nationalist racists.
NYCmetsfan
Banned
Yeah that's probably more accurate. It's a group of people who are used to world where they went unchallenged. They now don't control everything and fear their relative standing collapsing. Their absolute isn't (at least for trump) but they do hold less relative power and their lashing out at everybody they see treating that which just so happens to be other races. Just look at that racial resentment chart.
Hence racism. But there are other tribalism in the trump coalition, xenophobia and sexism. I just unfortunately think they are often times in the dem coalition to so I think thr racism is the biggest distinguishing factor (there are racists dems no doubt)
User 85168
Banned
Warren doesn't adorably misspeak all the time
Surely she's waiting until after Bernie drops so that Reddit doesn't kick in her door to tar and feather her right in her office.
Reddit already wants her blood for not endorsing the true progressive in the Mass primary.
I think the point is that they have no tolerance for BS. See: VP debate
Biden does misspeak sometimes, but often it's just spitting truth at the wrong time. See: gay marriage. If Warren did that, people wouldn't call it a gaffe, they'd call it courageous.
I still hit up youtube and watch parts of that vp debate just for kicks. <3 Biden.
Black Mamba
Member
What you describe here is how I mostly interpret the word "idiot." It isn't in the educational sense.
But the average Trump voter isn't really blue collar. They're probably more likely white collar given their household income averages. I know we like to sit here and think a Trump voter is a redneck mouth breather on welfare, but that's not true. It's just as if not more likely a professional with 2 kids. Trump's average voter in New York earned $85k (household). Well above $56k in the state.
Primary voters, regardless of party/vote are higher educated and earn more money than the median and average household (and of course GE voter). Nobody is turning out the poor working class, least of all Trump.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/
A lot of educated well off people are racist. A lot of them are also easily gullible! And they're voting for Trump.
Scared of what? Over 1/3 of Trump's voters earn over $100k. 2/3 above the median wage!
If they're scared, they're idiots, mostly. How else should we characterize the vast majority of Trump voters who are near or well above the median income?
This would be a different situation if Trump were winning poor people by a lot. Or at least poor whites. He's not.
Regarding Idiocracy, I most definitely agree it's not come about the same way. The only parallel, which was pointed out, was simply a buffoon conning a bunch of idiots. Idiocracy says the poor people are the idiots and muliplying and it got that part wrong. It's across the board.
ugaboga232
Member
I think its not quite as willful or malicious as you put it but I think its a very similar sentiment in that the world that they grew up in is changing for what they view is the worse and blame it on the scapegoat. I don't know if its more just the changes in the economy and just overall shittiness being projected on others or direct blaming of others for their relative improvements. I wager more the first. I do think we are all being more polarized (tribal) which is evidenced by some political polls posted here.
In other news, this is my weekly plea for y2kev to whisper sweet nothings into hillary's ears to double or triple NIH funding
Also be careful to all trying to make fear and being scared as logical thoughts, they are not and use completely different brain areas with their own failure modes and crappy design flaws.
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