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PoliGAF 2016 |OT5| Archdemon Hillary Clinton vs. Lice Traffic Jam

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I have to say, Metaphoreus' posts about why Clinton's private server was, in fact, in violation of the law are pretty convincing. Not enough that I think someone should vote for Trump instead, not remotely, but certainly a solid ding against Clinton's judgment, and that of those she surrounds herself with, that she okayed something like that KNOWING that she would eventually run again for president and that her people did not foresee the problems. It's certainly a pretty solid brick in the argument that a non-Bernie pragmatist Democrat could probably have undone Hillary because of how much baggage she carries and how enmeshed in the ways and mores of Washington she is.

Edit: Goddamn, didn't see that latest post. That's a fucking discursive rout if I've ever seen one. Kudos.
 
I have to say, Metaphoreus' posts about why Clinton's private server was, in fact, in violation of the law are pretty convincing. Not enough that I think someone should vote for Trump instead, not remotely, but certainly a solid ding against Clinton's judgment, and that of those she surrounds herself with, that she okayed something like that KNOWING that she would eventually run again for president and that her people did not foresee the problems. It's certainly a pretty solid brick in the argument that a non-Bernie pragmatist Democrat could probably have undone Hillary because of how much baggage she carries and how enmeshed in the ways and mores of Washington she is.

A violation of an obscure section of an executive order, maybe.
 
No one in this thread is interested in continuing to discuss the Clinton email controversy, so the least you could do is not post about it unintelligently.
Your last 3 posts have unburdened me of my misconception that the marked classification of the emails was ever relevant, so consider such an interest present.
 
A violation of an obscure section of an executive order, maybe.

The executive order is not the pillar of the argument, not remotely. It's one part of the argument, because it designates who can and cannot declassify information, but it matters because a U.S. Secretary should PROBABLY know the contents of executive orders and what are responsible ways of handling classified information, and it appears that Clinton, at a bare minimum, took a route that increased convenience for her while decreasing the security of classified U.S. information, which... well, that is a BAD look for a Secretary of State, and whether or not what she did is specifically criminal, it's seemed pretty obvious to me from the beginning that what she did was wrong.
 
Holy shit, the Trump response to that tape is that it's someone pretending to do Trump's voice as a prank, but it was also a member of his press team...

Dear lord, that's insane.
 
It's the most important part of the argument. Otherwise the entire thing is waved away as "The State Department disagrees that this material should be classified." And that would be that. The only response is the original classifying authority argument. Which, again, is the political equivalent of grammar trolling.

It should also be fairly obvious that it's impossible for people at the State Department to know what every other agency does and does not consider classified at the time they are conducting their intra-agency work correspondence, especially since these agencies can and do obtain the information in parallel.

Also, morals? You're talking about morals here? Morals? :mjlol
 

Crayons

Banned
I don't know what's happened to me....but that Bernie event sounds kind of nice, really. I mean, if you believe in prayer/magick/whatever...it's nice that his campaign is being inclusive? And...after being on the other side of "My candidate has no chance in hell, but I STILL BELIEVE DAMN IT TO HELL PLEASE GOD LET HER WIN" if it makes them feel good and they don't hurt anyone? Have at it. Blessed be. Etc.

it's time to stop drinking
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I want Franken simply because Mandatory Arbitration (a.k.a. a scam perpetrated by the GOP, Scalia and a corrupt cottage industry) is a pet issue to me and he's the only one who gives a damn about it.
 
You don't say...

giphy.gif
 

pigeon

Banned
So I actually really appreciate these posts from Metaphoreus, but I will say I wish I had $17,000 to hire him to write a bunch of posts taking the opposite position and see what he produced. I don't think we have anybody up to his standard of legal argument on the pro-Clinton side.

Obviously I doubt ultimately that Hillary will be indicted, mostly for reasons I've stated before about the behavior of other actors, and I suspect that people will eventually have really good legal arguments for why she shouldn't be indicted. I do think that you're probably pretty unlikely to see anybody use a private email server ever again for stuff like this, though, and that's probably as telling as anything else about the actual sensibility of such a policy.

Ultimately I wish that they'd just gotten her a secured Blackberry in the first place.
 
So I was playing Mk double dash with my little brother and his friends who are trump supporters. They are young boneheads who keep saying stuff like BUILD THE WALL and "See you later little marco" when they pass me in the race. long story short I won 7 races and they didn't win one, and as they were leaving I shouted in my awful trump voice, "WE'RE GOING TO WIN SO MUCH, YOU'LL BE TIRED OF WINNING" they were so mad lol. my yoshi and dk too dominant
 
It's the most important part of the argument. Otherwise the entire thing is waved away as "The State Department disagrees that this material should be classified." And that would be that. The only response is the original classifying authority argument. Which, again, is the political equivalent of grammar trolling.

A) Arguments tend to be interconnected, a clockwork of points and flourishes, and you can't just handwave pieces away and proceed on the notion that an argument would be weaker if it weren't there. You dismiss it as "an obscure executive order", but Hillary was perhaps the third or fourth most powerful person in the country, and it certainly should not have been obscure to her and her staff! It's a direct statement, signed by her boss, of the rules regarding information classification and declassification, and it stated, point blank, that departments have no authority to undo the classifications instituted by other departments.

B) You also have not addressed his point that a number of prominent individuals in the intelligence committee have stated that, yes, her server did contain classified material, and that independent analysis of the emails indicates the presence of material that SHOULD have been marked as classified even at the time it was transmitted according to the department's own rules (i.e. information given in confidence by foreign sources), and that whether it was classified at the time it was transmitted is not necessarily material, given it is understood custom at that echelon of government that some material that will cross your desk IS classified, even if it's not designated as such, and that caution and discretion in handling it is therefore required.

C) This is only "pedantic" in the way that a grammar argument is if you don't think it matters whether or not a presidential candidate's discretion and fidelity to specified, transparent, and traceable codes of conduct in dealing with the country's secrets is material. This election is a special case, given the true horror of the alternative, but in a normal election, it might certainly be A factor that it would be reasonable for the average uncommitted/independent voter to take into account, because it DOES speak poorly of Clinton's judgment, at a bare minimum, even if you think there are other actions or positions she's taken in the past to counterbalance that.

And my use of the word wrong was quadruple - yes, wrong in the sense that I think it is morally wrong not to be careful with classified information you have been entrusted with, wrong in the sense that I think it was a BAD idea to have information on an unsecured private server, because we DO live in an age of hackers and of combat in the information sphere, wrong in the sense that one of the reasons to HAVE information on government servers is to keep "leaky" information dissemination in check, and wrong in the sense that doing something so unnecessary that people WILL care about when you are the only thing standing between Americans and yet another failed Republican presidency was just fucking dumb!
 
So I actually really appreciate these posts from Metaphoreus, but I will say I wish I had $17,000 to hire him to write a bunch of posts taking the opposite position and see what he produced. I don't think we have anybody up to his standard of legal argument on the pro-Clinton side.

Act like this is about legalistic semantics and not common sense, brehs.

There are plenty of legal-based defenses of Clinton all over the internet written by people far more advanced in their legal careers than Mr. 3L over here.


Edit: @Snowman, your part B is actually relevant, as you allude to the "born classified" diplomatic gossip that was apparently emailed around. I will concede that technically this is true while simultaneously declaring it a nothing-burger. It's pretty clear that this happens all the time in the State Department, and will likely continue to do so in perpetuity.
 

Maxim726X

Member
Truth bombs.

That's... Pretty convincing.

You definitely took a while putting it together, and it's pretty thorough.

Like most people, I've just gotten to the point that I roll my eyes whenever I hear anyone bring it up. Like the 'boy who cried wolf', I just figured that this was another fabricated hit job. Perhaps I need to read more about it.

Act like this is about legalistic semantics and not common sense, brehs.

There are plenty of legal-based defenses of Clinton all over the internet written by people far more advanced in their legal careers than Mr. 3L over here.

Please post some, if you would. I would love to read it.
 
We have stupid people in this nation.

With Clinton’s nomination a lock, liberals have become even more furious and dismissive of white workers. Commenting on Sanders’s West Virginia victory, they were quick to point out that a felon running against Obama in the same state in 2012 got nearly half as many votes. They crowed about how some of both Bernie and Clinton’s voters said Trump was their real number one choice, and much was made of how Sanders overwhelmingly won voters who want “less liberal” policies than Obama’s.

Conveniently lost in the noise is the fact that Sanders won an even bigger share of voters who want “more liberal” ones.

The media takeaway was clear: somehow, someway, West Virginia’s vote for a Jewish socialist Brooklyn native was a vote for racism. “I don’t want to say it,” said Chris Matthews on election night “but West Virginian voters are, you know — conservative on social issues — but there’s another word for that. . .”

MSNBC’s Alex Seitz-Wald claimed, “Many attributed the outcome to West Virginia voters’ discomfort with Obama’s race. The state is one of the whitest in the country.” To be fair, it’s now widely known that Hillary Clinton keeps hot sauce in her purse at all times.

Note that most of the people that voted in the WV primary are Republicans that are too lazy to change their party identification and that they voted Bernie as a protest vote against Hillary.

Seriously though, how are Jacobin writers this stupid?

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/05/white-workers-bernie-sanders-clinton-primary-racism/
 

Holmes

Member
So I was playing Mk double dash with my little brother and his friends who are trump supporters. They are young boneheads who keep saying stuff like BUILD THE WALL and "See you later little marco" when they pass me in the race. long story short I won 7 races and they didn't win one, and as they were leaving I shouted in my awful trump voice, "WE'RE GOING TO WIN SO MUCH, YOU'LL BE TIRED OF WINNING" they were so mad lol. my yoshi and dk too dominant
Everyone who plays Yoshi in Mario games is gay. Pairing him up with DK leads me to believe you like hairy daddies.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Every bad political movement in history has had good, intelligent people fall into it.

Who is the smartest person currently on the Trump Train?

... Newt Gingrich?

Jeet Heer has brought this up on Twitter a lot. For the first successful pseudo-fascist movement in America, Trump has had no intellectual backing which is shocking. Fascists usually have a good many intellectuals on their side as they rise to power.
 
... Newt Gingrich?

Jeet Heer has brought this up on Twitter a lot. For the first successful pseudo-fascist movement in America, Trump has had no intellectual backing which is shocking. Fascists usually have a good many intellectuals on their side as they rise to power.
Ann Coulter and Newt Gingrich, like them or not, are intellectuals according to strict definitions of the word.
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
... Newt Gingrich?

Jeet Heer has brought this up on Twitter a lot. For the first successful pseudo-fascist movement in America, Trump has had no intellectual backing which is shocking. Fascists usually have a good many intellectuals on their side as they rise to power.
Not surprising at all that America's fascism movement consists of rednecks and dumbfucks.

Ann Coulter and Newt Gingrich, like them or not, are intellectuals according to strict definitions of the word.

Yeah, there is no way I am ever using the word intellectual to describe Ann Coulter.
 
You know, given that Colin Powell, Condoleeza Rice, Hillary Clinton, and John Kerry are all known to have sent and/or received classified information via email, what are the odds that the State Department has been led by utter incompetents 4 times in a row?

Is it possible, rather, that State employees do the best they can with what they have and what they know at the time? Or that the institutional culture there isn't 100% by the book at all times? Nah, that couldn't be it.

I'm also curious about why there have been no calls for Kerry to resign over his classified emails. Or why no one seems to care about it at all. Could it be that he's not running for president? But that would imply that the "outrage" over Clinton's emails is purely political and that these people don't actually care about it on principle.

Edit: Kerry did it as a sitting senator, not SoS. Still, how could someone with so little regard for the law get such a position? /s

That's probably enough annihilation of Metaphoreus for one night.
 

Wilsongt

Member
H. A. Goodman ‏@HAGOODMANAUTHOR 5h5 hours ago

Someone tell the Dem establishment BERNIE SANDERS FORCED A CONTESTED CONVENTION. The world will be watching. Choose wisely superdelegates.

He's getting even closer to that edge of insanity.
 
I guess Milo would be the intellectual standard-bearer of Trumpism? Kind of fitting, in that he's basically like Trump in the ways that count - horribly bigoted, a complete cartoon, yet sometimes entertaining nevertheless. The shit fit he threw when Twitter took his checkmark away was genuinely pretty hysterical, both in the way he intended and of course in the uninteded sense that he threw a fit over a check mark.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Here's why America needs Donald Trump to complete the Bernie Revolution!

Dems need to be punished for not electing Bernie. Here's why you should support Trump.

Predictably, GOP states are saying to defy Obama about transgendered bathroom rights in schools.
 
Tweets from @jameshohmann


@jameshohmann WaPo reporters were 44 mins into a phone interview w Trump abt his finances when asked about John Miller. The phone went silent, then dead.

@jameshohmann Trump's line went silent, then dead, this afternoon when WaPo asked: “Did you ever employ someone named John Miller as a spokesperson?"

@jameshohmann When WaPo reporters called back and reached Trump’s secretary, she said, “I heard you got disconnected. He can’t take the call now..."

Seems like Trump Tower does not have the classiest, most luxurious phone systems.

LOL
 

Crayons

Banned
whenever I get stressed I'll just remember that I may be stressed, but I'm not Donald Trump being confronted about his lies stressed
 
Trumps brand valuation is kind of weird and impossible because he is the brand. Or at least the family.

Acquiring the trump brand isn't like acquiring say the Nike brand.

With no Trump there is no brand. If he and ivanka died tomorrow what value does the brand have? Why would anyone care to buy something called Trump of they aren't part of it?

I don't even have a clue how someone could try to buy his brand. Kind of like Schrödinger's cat. Trumps brand is worth a lot but the moment you but it from him its worthless, perhaps.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Tweets from @jameshohmann


@jameshohmann WaPo reporters were 44 mins into a phone interview w Trump abt his finances when asked about John Miller. The phone went silent, then dead.

@jameshohmann Trump's line went silent, then dead, this afternoon when WaPo asked: “Did you ever employ someone named John Miller as a spokesperson?"

@jameshohmann When WaPo reporters called back and reached Trump’s secretary, she said, “I heard you got disconnected. He can’t take the call now..."

Seems like Trump Tower does not have the classiest, most luxurious phone systems.

This is amazing
 
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