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PoliGAF 2017 |OT1| From Russia with Love

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I'm not making a conspiracy or saying there's a big plot against him from the nefarious Clintons. I'm saying that after thirty years of Clinton leadership a large part of the party members are going to be Clinton people. These people probably are probably the most loyal to the Clintons and would have the most to lose from Sanders sticking his guy in an important role. They probably don't want that.

I didn't say everyone opposing Ellison is a Clintonite or that every Clintonite is opposing Ellison, but when most Perez supporters are hostile to Ellison and Perez's support surged after it looked like Ellison was consolidating support, I don't think it's a wild conspiracy to go "hey, these people mad about Bernie campaigning negatively against Hillary are also opposing his guy for DNC chair."
This cuts both ways though. The only reason Keith Ellison has a platform to even be in the public eye is that he happened to endorse Saint Bernard.

This is the same phenomenon as Liberal Icon Tulsi Gabbard.

He is not some spectacular, shining example of organisational merit. None of them particularly are.

His main additional merit is "endorse Bernie Sanders."

While Perez has the tacit backing of the former President. One doesn't have to be "a Clinton person" in order to intend to vote for Perez in this stupid contest that has become some sort of weird ideological proxy.

They can be an Obama person. There are a lot of Obama people. They're probably the majority of those who will decide the DNC role.
 
This cuts both ways though. The only reason Keith Ellison has a platform to even be in the public eye is that he happened to endorse Saint Bernard.

This is the same phenomenon as Liberal Icon Tulsi Gabbard.

He is not some spectacular, shining example of organisational merit. None of them particularly are.

His main additional merit is "endorse Bernie Sanders."

While Perez has the tacit backing of the former President. One doesn't have to be "a Clinton person" in order to intend to vote for Perez in this stupid contest that has become some sort of weird ideological proxy.

They can be an Obama person. There are a lot of Obama people. They're called Democrats.
I didn't say any of this wasn't true?

People who like/want to appease Bernie want their guy in a party position. People who don't probably don't want to try and appease him/his followers and are more likely to support a different candidate. I don't think either of those statements are controversial?
 
They don't actually have to even care one way or the other about Bernie Sanders to back the person close to the former President. Shock horror.

But even under that frame it doesn't need to be a person centric decision. This has stupidly become an ideological proxy contest. And the people ranging from burn it all down to single payer or bust are probably just in the minority.
 
Like okay the Clintons since they gained substantial power have been staffing the party with their people for literal decades. That's fine and normal, all of politics is gaining enough power to accomplish your goals. These are people who helped clear the field so Hillary would get the nomination, probably out of loyalty or hopes that they would get a better job in November. In spite of Ellison's early attempts to seem like a unity/consensus pick, they see him as an outside force trying to gain power for a wing of the party that is antagonistic to them especially in the wake of their loss.

Do you really think they weren't Clinton people objecting to Ellison? It's not some cold indictment of them, they're trying to keep what power they have, just like how the social democracy/Bernie wing are trying to seize more power.


I wonder how much Sanders calling Perez and Biden part of the failed status quo pissed off DNC members and soured them on Ellison by proxy...

Ellison was trying to craft a message of unity and Sanders' frankly probably hurt that message.
 
If you're worried about baggage then Pete is the best choice because Perez is a fine candidate but he's lumped in with Obama's DNC and all the failures that it brings to mind.

Which shouldn't even be a thing. Just because the guy was in Obama's cabinet shouldn't hurt him. Pete would be okay too, but I think Perez would be the best for the job. I'd take Howard Dean back too more than anything though.
 
Which shouldn't even be a thing. Just because the guy was in Obama's cabinet shouldn't hurt him. Pete would be okay too, but I think Perez would be the best for the job. I'd take Howard Dean back too more than anything though.

I think it's less about Perez being in Obamas cabinet and more that he's clearly favored by the Obama camp. People are frustrated and want the DNC to do something new and show signs it's listening, not stay the course and elect a new DNC chair brought to you by the same people who gave us the last one (kinda.)

It's not necessarily the right or good sentiment to have but it's one I can sympathize with even if it's illogical.
 
I'm not advocating such behavior, but I have spit in people's drinks for much less than being a white supremacist.

I was partly unable to overcome my chef's version of the Hippocratic oath to never serve knowingly tainted food, partly unable to summon enough phlegm, and partly worried that if he detected any fuckery ICE would be knocking down our door tomorrow.
 

Chumley

Banned
Issa calling for a special prosecutor is big news. I still maintain Trump is impeached before the end of the year, the congressional wall is crumbling pretty quickly and clearly whatever the FBI told them behind closed doors was scary.
 

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
I have no idea what Trump's SOTU is going to be about.

I could see him whining about CNN for 10 straight minutes.
Yeah... could be anything from his inauguration speech 2.0 to a version of last week's press conference where he also plays the role of the reporters posing questions to himself.
 

Ogodei

Member
This cuts both ways though. The only reason Keith Ellison has a platform to even be in the public eye is that he happened to endorse Saint Bernard.

This is the same phenomenon as Liberal Icon Tulsi Gabbard.

He is not some spectacular, shining example of organisational merit. None of them particularly are.

His main additional merit is "endorse Bernie Sanders."

While Perez has the tacit backing of the former President. One doesn't have to be "a Clinton person" in order to intend to vote for Perez in this stupid contest that has become some sort of weird ideological proxy.

They can be an Obama person. There are a lot of Obama people. They're probably the majority of those who will decide the DNC role.

Ellison wouldn't have gotten Schumer's endorsement if his only virtue was being on the Sanders bandwagon.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Meet the 16-year-old Canadian girl who took down Milo Yiannopoulos

GoCanada.png
 

Chichikov

Member
That's kind of fucked up bro patrons don't pay to be drinking your mucous and saliva. Idk what them dudes did, but.
Usually it was for sexually harassing the staff, but racism would get you a free loogie too.
And to be clear I have no illusions that this achieved anything other than a passing relief from the black hole that grows in your souls every time you need play nice with someone you would almost certainly take a swing at if this didn't happen at your job.
Again, I don't advocate that shit, but I sleep well at night.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Issa calling for a special prosecutor is big news. I still maintain Trump is impeached before the end of the year, the congressional wall is crumbling pretty quickly and clearly whatever the FBI told them behind closed doors was scary.

Issa is a bullshitter. He knows talk is cheap and thus loses nothing in this desperate attempt to secure reelection.


Other than the fact that she believes in dogshit ideas like Trickle Down economics. But, yes, she's a proactively decent human being.
 

Sibylus

Banned
Issa is a bullshitter. He knows talk is cheap and thus loses nothing in this desperate attempt to secure reelection.



Other than the fact that she believes in dogshit ideas like Trickle Down economics. But, yes, she's a proactively decent human being.

I'll make common cause with just about anyone against fascists. Greater evils and all that.
 

Mr.Mike

Member

It's a bit funny that her mom contacted Vox to stan for her kid, but I do really appreciate it. People with right leaning tendencies need to fight back against this fringe, and stories like this are an important part of that fight.

You only have to be 14 to join the Conservative Party of Canada and be able to vote in the leadership election. I'm sure she already knows that, but if anyone reading this is Canadian and has an interest in the CPC not going to shit, maybe think about joining.

Other than the fact that she believes in dogshit ideas like Trickle Down economics. But, yes, she's a proactively decent human being.

There really isn't enough in the article to draw that conclusion.

The kernel of truth to the "Trickle Down" theory is that savings, and not just consumption, are crucial to economic growth. Ideally you would want a good balance of the two. But generally savings rates in the US are thought to be too low. This is harmful not just because people aren't saving enough for personal reasons, but because in order to maintain and grow the economy some amount of resources have to be allocated towards replenishing and growing the capital stock, instead of being consumed for immediate personal benefit. Of course nothing about this requires that it be the rich doing this saving, but it is true that they are the segment of the population with the highest savings rates.
 

wutwutwut

Member
The kernel of truth to the "Trickle Down" theory is that savings, and not just consumption, are crucial to economic growth. Ideally you would want a good balance of the two. But generally savings rates in the US are thought to be too low. This is harmful not just because people aren't saving enough for personal reasons, but because in order to maintain and grow the economy some amount of resources have to be allocated towards replenishing and growing the capital stock, instead of being consumed for immediate personal benefit. Of course nothing about this requires that it be the rich doing this saving, but it is true that they are the segment of the population with the highest savings rates.

Well said. To the extent I believe savings rates are too low and too skewed towards the upper middle class and rich in the US, I guess I am a trickle down economist.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
I agree that "Trickle Down" is lame, but I don't think it's a necessary part of right-leaning thought. Another, more egalitarian but still "fiscally conservative" position would be to pursue policies to increase the savings rates of the middle and working classes. A good start in America would be to let the Social Security trust fund actually invest its money like a sensible pension plan, and not some bullshit scheme to lower the governments cost of borrowing. Currently the Social Security trust fund only invests in US bonds which, while safe, provide a much lower rate of return than could be achieved, especially considering the fund has a time horizon of perpetuity. On a macro level some of the extra borrowing the government can do now will go towards capital investments, but not all of it.
 

tuxfool

Banned
Of course nothing about this requires that it be the rich doing this saving, but it is true that they are the segment of the population with the highest savings rates.
You'd need a stronger middle class in order to encourage more savings from people other than the rich. A lot of people need to spend all that they earn to stay afloat.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
The lady they had on bill maher was pissing me off more than milo did last week. I felt like what she was saying was completely tone deaf and idiotic.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
You'd need a stronger middle class in order to encourage more savings from people other than the rich. A lot of people need to spend all that they earn to stay afloat.

While I appreciate that very many people legitimately would struggle to have meaningful savings, there is also definitely a part of the population that spends all of their income to maintain a certain standard of living but could very feasibly cut that down a bit to be able to save. The median household income is about $57k a year, so there's a large portion of the population that could afford to, and should be encouraged to save more.

In my eyes increasing the middle class savings rate is a crucial part of strengthening the middle class and reducing inequality. To say we need a stronger middle class for the middle class to be able to save is to put the cart before the horse. Higher savings rates would both boost economic growth and see more of the potential investment income in the country go to the middle class.
 

Supast4r

Junior Member

Mr.Mike

Member

Other than the fact that she believes in dogshit ideas like Trickle Down economics. But, yes, she's a proactively decent human being.

RE: This girls political beliefs.

There is a faction of the centre-right that really really REALLY hates this whole alt-right and Trumpian populism thing, facism if you will. There has been some effort reclaim the label "neoliberal" for this movement. Whatever label we might eventually find, I suspect this girl is one of us. (Not really enough to go on, but she hasn't defected to the alt-right)

I’m a neoliberal. Maybe you are too

‘Neoliberal’ is a term of abuse used by some people to attack fans of the free market. It is usually badly defined and other people’s attempts to define it have ended up being confused or confusing. Ben’s definition is the best I’ve read, because it describes a group who are distinct from libertarians and who lack a good descriptive term already.

This post is an attempt to trash Ben’s good work and reappropriate the term for my own purposes. A lot of what Ben says still applies, but a lot doesn’t too.

There is a emerging and growing group of people, particularly coming out of the libertarian movement, that lacks a useful descriptive term. These are people who are libertarianish — but they are fundamentally different to the mainstream libertarian movement when it comes to important values and approaches, and frankly lots of libertarians hate them for being, in their eyes, too statist or leftist.

I am one of them, and perhaps you are too. Many of our left-wing opponents would describe us as neoliberal to slander us. I suggest we follow the Suffragettes and wear this label with pride.

So who are “we”? Here are a few common beliefs that I think “we” have in common. I’m not claiming that these beliefs are exclusive to us, of course.

We like markets — a lot. We think that markets are by far the best way of organising most human affairs that involve scarce resources, because they align people’s incentives in ways that communicate where resources can be be used most efficiently, and give people reasons to come up with new ways of using existing resources. This means that markets and market-like systems are desirable in many, many places they’re not present at the moment — healthcare, education, environmental policy, organ allocations, traffic congestion, land-use planning.

We are liberal consequentialists. A system is justified if it is the one that best allows people to live the lives that they want to live, or makes them happiest or more satisfied than any other. There are no inherent rights that override this. People’s wellbeing is all that matters, and generally individuals are best at defining what is best for themselves.

We care about the poor. Caring about people’s wellbeing leads us to caring about the worst off people. Usually an extra £100 makes a pauper better off than it makes a millionaire. This diminishing marginal utility means that poor people’s lives are the easiest to improve for a given amount of time, energy and money.

We care about the welfare of everyone in the world, not just those in the UK. It’s natural to feel more in common with people who live near you and live like you, just as it’s natural to care much more about your family than about strangers. But when it comes to policy, we care about improving everyone’s lives, wherever they are. That’s one reason we tend to be quite pro-immigration — not just because it’s good for natives here, but because it’s so good for the migrants themselves.

We base our beliefs on empirics, not principles. There is an unlimited number of stories that you can tell about the world, but only a few are true. You find out which are true by comparing the stories to reality with experiments and throwing away the ones that don’t fit. It doesn’t matter if a theory appears to be internally coherent — if it can’t stand up to experimentation, it’s wrong. In particular, quantitative empirical research is what we look for.

We try not to be dogmatic. Testing your beliefs against the world requires you to be prepared to throw out the ones that are wrong, even though it’s often painful to do so. This means that we have to be willing to change our minds, contradict our friends, forsake our heroes, and be unpopular with fellow-travellers who think that they’re obviously right. One way to deal with the emotional costs of this is to internalise the virtue of open-mindedness so that changing your mind makes you feel just as good as being ideologically consistent once did.

We think the world is getting better. And, really, it is: pro-market ideas have taken hold nearly everywhere, raising living standards by an extraordinary amount for a huge number of people. The centre-ground consensus in nearly every developed economy is extremely pro-market and liberal compared to where it was fifty years ago, and although they are often less pro-market than they were one hundred years ago that is offset by major advances in the rights of women and non-whites.

We believe that property rights are very important. Predictable and formalised ownership of scarce resources is extremely important. It allows people to make long-term plans for the future, which incentivises improvement of their own circumstances. Overriding property rights capriciously undermines the incentive people have to hold off from consuming and invest in their futures instead, because they will be unsure about whether they’ll actually get to enjoy the returns of that investment. This is extremely important in the developing world, where weak or nonexistent property rights preclude capital accumulation and growth.

But we’re comfortable with redistribution, in principle. Because we’re consequentialists we don’t think that property rights are morally significant in and of themselves — they’re a useful rule that allows the economy to function properly but there is no intrinsic value to them. People don’t really deserve the talents they’re born with any more than they deserve to have been born in a rich country rather than a poor one, or to be born in 1996 rather than 1896. Because of this, redistributing wealth or income from lucky people to unlucky people may be justifiable, if it’s done without depressing economic growth too much. Too much redistribution can have bad consequences because taxes tend to depress investment and growth, but too little redistribution has bad consequences too — poor people don’t live good enough lives. A neoliberal is someone who believes that markets are astonishingly good at creating wealth, but not always good at distributing wealth.

I’ve noticed that most, if not all, the above statements are true of many people I hang around with and consider my closest intellectual bedfellows. I also suspect a weak version of most of them is held to by many people who consider themselves centrists, and that a very weak version of this might be the basic ideology that underpins the modern world.

My name is Sam Bowman, and I’m a neoliberal.

 

Chumley

Banned
The lady they had on bill maher was pissing me off more than milo did last week. I felt like what she was saying was completely tone deaf and idiotic.

That woman was a complete idiot and took up most of the speaking time blathering incoherent contradictions and nonsense.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Asra Nomani. Didn't know about her until today.

I knew that imbecile seemed familiar.

She's that moron Republican muslim who said that liberals need to start using the phrase "radical islamic terrorism" in an article on the Wapo during the election.
 

chadskin

Member
@realDonaldTrump:
Maybe the millions of people who voted to MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN should have their own rally. It would be the biggest of them all!

??? what
 
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