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[electricpirate]

Yeah, nice article.

If the article was about interplay between candidates, then I would agree with you. But it's an article about the problematic ways in which we talk about fundraising. It's a technical article, it's not polemic.

 

[APF]

that person giving 8 $25 donations is "proof" of the inordinate influence of the financial services industry on our national politics.

"To be fair" (is this GAF's catchphrase now?), hasn't the above been part of the calculation of every single rant against corporate influence in politics, and only now being questioned because suddenly Dems are raising fantastic amounts of money? Note also that, duh, the CEO of a company is also "just" an employee, yet their donations are every bit as "inordinate" an influence as that of a PAC or official lobbyist / lobbying group. Also, don't campaigns also get to read these same stats on what sector is providing how much money--you know, like everyone else in the world does? While there's an element of truth to the gripe expressed in the quote, there's also a lot that begs credulity--and more importantly, looks from the outside like frantic handwaving to spin away an argument folks on the left have been making for decades.


edit: dude, blog posts from dkos? When I've been harassed for posting editorials from the NYT? Please.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't think it was ever fully agreed that he actually joined with McCain to sign on to public financing for the General Election. If so, I'm sure they would have been an uproar just as there was when Edwards decided that if he were the nominee, he would unilaterally disarm himself against the Republican. As I said before, Obama can plausibly claim that with his million + donors that he already has a form of public financing. I will be extremely pissed if Obama agrees to PF against McCain unless there are some strong, strong provisions against outside groups and the like.

Those are the terms he outlined for an agreement to be in place. The strongest statement I've seen from him was that he would pursue an agreement. I don't think he ever said he's absolutely take public financing, there's always been clauses. I'm sure he's looking for ways to leave PF behind while making the position consistent with the caveats he outlined. It would be a tremendous advantage in the general.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

Obama's ND speech was pretty good

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT6LGdMIlg4

They are recaucussing today.

That was great

 

[electricpirate]

edit: dude, blog posts from dkos? When I've been harassed for posting editorials from the NYT? Please.

As said it's a technical front paged article. It's not polemic, and it's right. I have no clue why a "generic liberal blogger rage" has anything to do with what's right or wrong, other than you picking a fight.

 

[Azih]

"To be fair" (is this GAF's catchphrase now?), hasn't the above been part of the calculation of every single rant against corporate influence in politics

Not from me. Lobbyist and corporate donations are not the same thing and have never been the same thing as individual donations. In fact it never even crossed my mind that they would be considered so until the whole oil industry donation thing happened.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Not from me. Lobbyist and corporate donations are not the same thing and have never been the same thing as individual donations. In fact it never even crossed my mind that they would be considered so until the whole oil industry donation thing happened.

It's a strange argument. I work at Intel, and I've donated to Obama's campaign. Does that mean that Obama takes money from the tech "industry" because I donated? I work at Intel finance.

 

[Tamanon]

BTW, it seems that the daily conference calls of bad things each campaign has done have died down. Think there's an agreement to settle this at least a little cleaner than it used to be? Maybe Dean put a word in there.

 

[maximum360]

Listen to Wright's sermons and then listen to Dr. Martin Luther King's speech here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRFzBBrRJFk&feature=related

Lots of similarities.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

BTW, it seems that the daily conference calls of bad things each campaign has done have died down. Think there's an agreement to settle this at least a little cleaner than it used to be? Maybe Dean put a word in there.

weekend is quiet, I'll give it until tuesday for a new storm

 

[GhaleonEB]

weekend is quiet, I'll give it until tuesday for a new storm

As we get closer to PA, I think it will heat back up quickly.

 

[Tamanon]

Yeah, but I mean over the past week or two, we'll see if it's just because the primary isn't imminent.

Also, found the reason Clinton and Obama were in North Dakota today. The state convention was today, they both gave speeches. Apparently 17000 attended Obama's. Largest since the 30s.

 

[syllogism]

Haha

Colombia Sacks Penn
Latin American government majorly annoyed that top Clinton adviser described meeting with their ambassador over trade agreement as an “error in judgment.”

“The Colombian government considers this a lack of respect to Colombians, and finds this response unacceptable.”

So: contract with Penn’s Burson-Marsteller PR/communications firm terminated.

http://thepage.time.com/release-on-mark-penns-termination-by-colombian-government/

 

[Tamanon]

I'm actually shocked that his first firing this campaign would be from their government instead of from the Clinton campaign. I can only imagine the only reason he hasn't been fired from there is because they owe him several million.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Haha


http://thepage.time.com/release-on-mark-penns-termination-by-colombian-government/

Ouch! It fits with their pattern of bridge burning (see: Richardson).

 

[syllogism]

Yeah, but I mean over the past week or two, we'll see if it's just because the primary isn't imminent.

Also, found the reason Clinton and Obama were in North Dakota today. The state convention was today, they both gave speeches. Apparently 17000 attended Obama's. Largest since the 30s.

That's the reason Clinton was there, but Obama was the keynote speaker and mostly just returning a favor to Sen. Conrad or more broadly to the state as a whole.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

As we get closer to PA, I think it will heat back up quickly.

that or SNL does something tonight

 

[siamesedreamer]

So, Obama's new brand of politics includes introductions at campaign events by Air America hosts who call his opponent a "warmonger":

Radio talk show star Ed Schultz warmed up the crowd, attacking Sen. John McCain as “a warmonger,” before Obama arrived in the room.

Obama thanked Schultz, saying he was the “voice of progressive radio,”...

LINK

 

[Smiles and Cries]

So, Obama's new brand of politics includes introductions at campaign events by Air America hosts who call his opponent a "warmonger":



LINK

I was waiting for this lame news to hit this thread, I wonder how far McCain camp can take this

 

[Tamanon]

So, Obama's new brand of politics includes introductions at campaign events by Air America hosts who call his opponent a "warmonger":



LINK

Is that a mislabel? McCain does endorse and advocate war Sure it's harsh, but he has been on record the whole time advocating the Iraq war.

 

[Zaptruder]

So, Obama's new brand of politics includes introductions at campaign events by Air America hosts who call his opponent a "warmonger":



LINK

What would you call McCain then? War Angel?

Is that the preferred term?

 

[Azih]

But McCain does advocate war does he not?

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

What would you call McCain then? War Angel?

Is that the preferred term?

:lol

 

[Azih]

It's a strange argument. I work at Intel, and I've donated to Obama's campaign. Does that mean that Obama takes money from the tech "industry" because I donated? I work at Intel finance.

I think what it shows is that Obama is in the pocket of big GhaleonEB

 

[APF]

Obama is a pacifist?

What would you call McCain then? War Angel?

How about "war hero?"


edit for previous posts: if you're a member of a discrete "industry," and you and a statistically-significant number of co-industrialists donate, then of course. The point isn't that the argument doesn't make sense, the point is the term itself is more vague than it's been used in the past, when it's been used to hammer at other parties being "unduly" influenced.

 

[Tamanon]

Obama is a pacifist?



How about "war hero?"

Can't a person be both a war hero and a warmonger?

 

[APF]

Can't a person be both a war hero and a warmonger?

To be fair, I think the major point is that this sort of personal attack was allegedly not supposed to be a part of Obama's campaign.

 

[Tamanon]

To be fair, I think the major point is that this sort of personal attack was allegedly not supposed to be a part of Obama's campaign.

How is this a personal attack?

 

[Zaptruder]

Obama is a pacifist?



How about "war hero?"

Should we start calling you intellectually honest as well?

 

[Azih]

the point is the term itself is more vague than it's been used in the past, when it's been used to hammer at other parties being "unduly" influenced.

When did the way the term is used change?

 

[Azih]

To be fair, I think the major point is that this sort of personal attack was allegedly not supposed to be a part of Obama's campaign.

That's about as much a personal attack as someone calling Obama a 'tax and spend liberal' would be a personal attack. Which is to say it isn't one.

 

[harSon]

People are really reaching for things to attack Obama on :lol

 

[Stinkles]

So, Obama's new brand of politics includes introductions at campaign events by Air America hosts who call his opponent a "warmonger":



LINK

1. John McCain is a bona fide War Hero.
2. He is also a bona fide warmonger by any logical definition of that term. He would like to continue one war and has expressed interest in starting another.
3. This is really flimsy stuff Siamese. You've made loads of compelling arguments that I've disagreed with in the past, but the Obama stuff you keep slinging in here is just frantic reaching.

 

[APF]

That's about as much a personal attack as someone calling Obama a 'tax and spend liberal' would be a personal attack. Which is to say it isn't one.

...

"warmonger" isn't a personal attack?

McCain's hawkish but not an ultrahawk; in fact, it's hard to grasp exactly what he is IMO. This is a smear--it's akin to calling Obama a Socialist or something, but has less intellectual weight than that charge.

 

[Azih]

"warmonger" isn't a personal attack.

Like I said, it's akin to somebody calling Obama a 'tax and spend liberal'.

 

[Particle Physicist]

People are really reaching for things to attack Obama on :lol

yeah. its really sunk to new lows. holy moly !

 

[Slurpy]

FWIW, I don't care about a politician lying. They all do it. I'm simply pointing out that once you get past his pretty speeches and the rhetoric, Obama is *shock* no dfferent than the rest of them.

In your opinion he isn't, and you've made that clear. What is also clear is that there are actually countless INFORMED people, who are not naive and who who do not see him as 'the messiah', who have been following this race for a long time who actually do believe, and rightfully so, that he IS different, and he is a step above the rest in this regard. The fact that you've repeated that fucking line more times than I wish to count, and that your deepest desire is for him to viewed unfavorably by everyone- does not change that fact.

Your whole strategy of digging up and sensationalizing things which most reasonable people consider pretty benign, and then start shrilling about HEY GUYS SEE HES A PIECE OF SHIT LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, as well as your inability to engage in any honest or sensible debate is pretty fucking pathetic, and telling. Not only that, its the closest thing that fits the definition of 'delusional' on this board, a term you're so happy to blanket everyone else with.

 

[APF]

Like I said, it's akin to somebody calling Obama a 'tax and spend liberal'.

Ugh, no. But let me put it this way: is Barack Hussein Obama's middle name, "Hussein?"

 

[siamesedreamer]

On which Iraq Warcupation spending bills have McCain and Obama voted differently?

 

[Azih]

Ugh, no. But let me put it this way: is Barack Hussein Obama's middle name, "Hussein?"

Is this a policy position?

 

[Particle Physicist]

On which Iraq Warcupation spending bills have McCain and Obama voted differently?

what are their plans for the future of the US in Iraq?

 

[Tamanon]

On which Iraq Warcupation spending bills have McCain and Obama voted differently?

Spending for a decision already done has little to do with initiating said decision.

Although now that I think about it, McCain has not signed on for the bill increasing GI Bill benefits to veterans, I wonder what his reason is.

 

[APF]

Which of the two said their Iraq positions were pretty much identical to President Bush's?


Azih: where does McCain list "warmongering" as a policy position?

 

[syllogism]

The substantial differences of the "attacks" aside, this was a North Dakota democratic party fund raising event, not an Obama camp event and this speaker was not their surrogate nor had he endorsed Obama. The tone was likely also quite different, though there's no video/audio available.

 

[APF]

But: different or not different from the Cunningham remarks, which McCain quickly distanced himself from?

 

[Stinkles]

But: different or not different from the Cunningham remarks, which McCain quickly distanced himself from?

Ah, so distancing yourself quickly from some acquaintance's remarks is now OK? Because I seem to remember it wasn't good enough a couple of weeks ago.

 

[syllogism]

But: different or not different from the Cunningham remarks, which McCain quickly distanced himself from?

I say different, though still a somewhat unfair characterization. Frankly I don't think you believe they are comparable either but that's moot. McCain camp is welcome to push the issue if they truly believe the remarks were comparable.

I think it's certain if someone asked Obama directly whether he agrees with the term, he would not.

e: "Obama spokeswoman Jen Psaki says in a statement, "John McCain is not a warmonger and should not be described as such. He's a supporter of a war that Senator Obama believes should have never been authorized and never been waged."

 

[siamesedreamer]

Although now that I think about it, McCain has not signed on for the bill increasing GI Bill benefits to veterans, I wonder what his reason is.

Hadn't heard that. I'd like to know his reasoning as well...

 

[thekad]

Yikes, this Obama obsession is bordering on creepiness.

 

[bob_arctor]

Hadn't heard that. I'd like to know his reasoning as well...

If he even has one. Maybe he has to check with his people first to remember what his reason was at some point prior.