• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF Interim Thread of Tears/Lapel Pins (ScratchingHisCheek-Gate)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
The aforementioned Mr. Kagan just published an essay in World Affairs Journal where he defines it.
____
To examine this premise requires first understanding what people mean by “neoconservative,” for the term conjures very different images. For some, it is synonymous with “hawk,” to others, it is an ethnic description, and to still others, it is a term to describe anything evil—I once heard a Cornell professor earnestly define neoconservatism as an ideological commitment to torture and political oppression. But when employed fairly neutrally to describe a foreign policy worldview, as (George) Packer does, neoconservatism usually has a recognizable meaning.

It connotes a potent moralism and idealism in world affairs, a belief in America’s exceptional role as a promoter of the principles of liberty and democracy, a belief in the preservation of American primacy and in the exercise of power, including military power, as a tool for defending and advancing moralistic and idealistic causes, as well as a suspicion of international institutions and a tendency toward unilateralism. In the hands of more hostile critics, the neocons are not merely idealistic but absurdly and dangerously hubristic about the unlimited capacity of American power to effect positive change; not merely expansive but imperialistic, seeking not only American pre-eminence but ruthless global dominance; not merely willing to use force, but preferring it to peaceful methods; and not merely tending toward unilateralism but actively spurning alliances in favor of solitary action. Even these deliberately polemical caricatures point to something recognizable, a foreign policy that combines an idealist’s moralism, and even messianism, with a realist’s belief in the importance of power.
________
 

terrene

Banned
APF said:
As for Condi, read any of the analyses of the interdepartmental scuffles going on re: Iran, for example.
I'm pretty sure I already addressed the issue of gossip vs. her policy and actions. Thanks, though.
 
siamesedreamer said:
Washington Post

Change America Can Believe In!!!

It's an interesting article, and despite the attempt at headline grabbing, it's very positive for the senator.

According to the article, Obama has raised half his total dollar amount from donors who gave under $200 total, Compared to clinton who has raised 1/3 of her total and McCain who has raised 1/4 of his.

think of that, Obama has raised about $100 MIllion from small donors, Mcain has raised about $20 million. (open secrets)

if they both returned donations past $200 dollars, Obama would outraise McCain by a factor of 5. If McCain acced those donations, obama would still nearly double his fundraising.

The article also goes on to show how those bundlers haven't influenced him, and aren't looking for cabinet positions. It specifically shows where bundlers have raised a bunch of money for them, and he's then worked explicitly against them.
 

Cheebs

Member
Photos from the Clinton Campaign protest of MSNBC this morning lolz
IMG_2688.jpg

IMG_2705.jpg

IMG_2672.jpg
 
wow, talk about a cult of personality. i bet those people never protested fox news despite their constant bashing of the left, but now that msnbc doesn't favor their poor hillary, they whip out the signs and start marching.

really, hillary fans frighten me with their obsession with her well-being. she's a rich politician, she'll be fine guys.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Francois the Great said:
wow, talk about a cult of personality. i bet those people never protested fox news despite their constant bashing of the left, but now that msnbc doesn't favor their poor hillary, they whip out the signs and start marching.

really, hillary fans frighten me with their obsession with her well-being. she's a rich politician, she'll be fine guys.

To be fair, they fully support FOX news right now;)
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
I think they paid that one guy to stand in. That's a damn weak protest. The Backstreet Boys drew larger numbers in 2007 at TRL.
 

APF

Member
terrene said:
I'm pretty sure I already addressed the issue of gossip vs. her policy and actions. Thanks, though.
Which policies and actions of her State Department are you specifically talking about, and how do you separate those actions and policies from the fact that she works under President Bush?
 

Atrus

Gold Member
APF said:
Plus Hamas as a party really is a leader of a "nation," so....

Since when is a political party that usurped power through military conflict and is not a recognized sovereign for any state, a nation?

Hamas is as much a nation as the Canadian Conservative party is a nation, and at least the conservatives can claim to be the recognized sovereign of Canada, unlike Hamas for Palestinians.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Hitokage said:
Doesn't Anonymous pull in larger crowds?

Yeah, and that's kinda scary.:p Especially considering that Clinton crowd was in New York of all places. If you can't draw a bigger crowd for a protest in New York.....
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Tamanon: Not nearly as scary as they could be with tighter organization, even if it's in the shadows. Right now it's slightly more party crowd than protest group.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
Hitokage said:
Doesn't Anonymous pull in larger crowds?

Atrus: Hamas was elected to power once.

Bears little consequence when the Hamas of today gained control of Gaza through a military conflict against Fatah last year.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
When Hamas won the election, that did not include the presidency of the Palestinian Authority. So while Hamas may have a majority in the legislature, Abbas is still the head of state and that's who you conduct diplomacy with.

Obama's position has always been to make negotiations with Hamas conditional, saying that the US isn't obligated to deal with them because they're a non-state actor. That's true, but they have the de facto power of state in Gaza and no peace agreement (like the one the current administration is trying to deliver) will survive without their consent and cooperation.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Wow, that's a pretty weak protest.

And claiming that MSNBC is practicing "hate speech"? That's not going to get anybody on your side.
 

APF

Member
Mandark said:
When Hamas won the election, that did not include the presidency of the Palestinian Authority. So while Hamas may have a majority in the legislature, Abbas is still the head of state and that's who you conduct diplomacy with.

Obama's position has always been to make negotiations with Hamas conditional, saying that the US isn't obligated to deal with them because they're a non-state actor. That's true, but they have the de facto power of state in Gaza and no peace agreement (like the one the current administration is trying to deliver) will survive without their consent and cooperation.
That's a pretty twisted argument you're making in order to support something you likely don't actually support. How do you come to the conclusion they're a non-state actor when as you note above they're a state actor? Aren't they in fact, both? Don't you also acknowledge above that they're a defacto leader, and further they'll realistically will need to be brought into any true negotiated peace? Again, while worded as a defense of Obama's not doubletalking on this issue, it accurately comes across as hypocritical (of him) nonetheless.



Edit on another subject: if the important part is whether or not articles will describe you as having your policies influenced by moneyed interests, does that not deflate the alleged heroic importance of not accepting (some but not all) lobbyists' money?
 
APF said:
Edit on another subject: if the important part is whether or not articles will describe you as having your policies influenced by moneyed interests, does that not deflate the alleged heroic importance of not accepting (some but not all) lobbyists' money?

Obama doesn't take lobbyist money, that's been shown again and again.

The fact remains, Obama has taken more of his campaign money from small donors, rather than large than either candidate, by signifigant margins. Where he has had bundlers they haven't shown any influence on his policies.

If you want to try to spin that as somehow mitigating the faults of his competitors go right ahead, when it comes to the where money for a campaign comes from, Obama is going to win that again and again.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
Mandark said:
That's true, but they have the de facto power of state in Gaza and no peace agreement (like the one the current administration is trying to deliver) will survive without their consent and cooperation.

Unfortunately, no peace agreement can be made while Hamas operates as a terrorist organization and a group dedicated to introducing children to martyrdom via TV.

In its current status, Hamas is a criminal organization needing to be wiped out for its actions. It is insane for anyone to try to position them as their representative sovereign, since doing so is effectively writing their own death warrant.
 

Macam

Banned
The Lamonster said:
Can someone please tell me what the deal is with the Clinton MSNBC protest??


and it'd be awesome if a link to the story was provided too.

Basically, the perceived bias by Clintonistas that MSNBC favors Obama, or at the very least, is disparaging against Clinton herself. From what I'm aware of, most of it stems from Chris Matthews' notorious behavior towards the Clintons and his reactions to some of Obama's speeches (the 'tingle' placard refers to a comment Matthews made about a tingle running up his leg after an Obama speech) and both Abrams' & Olbermann's attacks on the Clinton campaign's largely self-inflicted antics. I'm sure there are other petty examples, but that's the general gist of it. I'm sure the regulars of this thread can provide links offhand.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
Atrus said:
In its current status, Hamas is a criminal organization needing to be wiped out for its actions. It is insane for anyone to try to position them as their representative sovereign, since doing so is effectively writing their own death warrant.
they won popular support within their territory because they a. provided public services and social service networks that Fatah/Palestinian Authority didn't, and b. weren't blatantly corrupt. it's not so simple to simply paint them as a terrorist organization and wash our hands of any need to deal with them.
 
olbermann definitely shits on clinton too much and he's coming off as a blow hard for what may be the first time in his career.

but msnbc as a whole (and i watch a lot of it) isn't more slanted towards obama than anybody else. so i don't know what those protesters are on about.

but olbermann... man. it was cool when he was on his high horse about iraq and gonzales because those are major fuck ups of our time. but his new disdain for clinton is downright stupid. and he's not a stupid man
 

Macam

Banned
Atrus said:
Unfortunately, no peace agreement can be made while Hamas operates as a terrorist organization and a group dedicated to introducing children to martyrdom via TV.

In its current status, Hamas is a criminal organization needing to be wiped out for its actions. It is insane for anyone to try to position them as their representative sovereign, since doing so is effectively writing their own death warrant.

If you want a comprehensive peace agreement at the moment, you're either going to have to a) talk and negotiate with Hamas in the hopes of building consensus and moderating the group, b) have someone go in and attempt to eliminate the group and deal with the [likely disastrous] fallout, (unilateral Israeli action being unlikely given the disaster in Lebanon and a prominent U.S. role isn't likely given our current condition, which begs the question exactly who would do so), or c) wait indefinitely while all sides continue to suffer. Like Iraq, there are no good choices at settling the issue, just the least worst one.
 

Triumph

Banned
Tyrone Slothrop said:
olbermann definitely shits on clinton too much and he's coming off as a blow hard for what may be the first time in his career.

but msnbc as a whole (and i watch a lot of it) isn't more slanted towards obama than anybody else. so i don't know what those protesters are on about.

but olbermann... man. it was cool when he was on his high horse about iraq and gonzales because those are major fuck ups of our time. but his new disdain for clinton is downright stupid. and he's not a stupid man
If it walks, talks and acts like a spiteful, power hungry shrew of a candidate...
 

RubxQub

φίλω ἐξεχέγλουτον καί ψευδολόγον οὖκ εἰπόν
Tyrone Slothrop said:
but olbermann... man. it was cool when he was on his high horse about iraq and gonzales because those are major fuck ups of our time. but his new disdain for clinton is downright stupid. and he's not a stupid man
Maybe it's...deserved?!

*gasp*
 
Yeah I agree - Olbermann is probably getting increasingly tired of biting his tongue on Clinton's Republican-esque attacks and campaign strategies.

Countdown is the shit.
 
yeah i've gotten a lot of shit about calling out olbermann. but seriously he's turning into the person he hates the most (o'reilly) ... flashback to 2001 when o'reilly's show was taking off. he captueres an audience, has some interesting insights and uses his show as a platform. ...but then it starts taking off, he gets huge, he gets more incensed about stupid things, like rap music, porn stars, sylvia's soul food. now nobody can stand the guy. i see the same thing happening to olbermann

like yesterday. he goes on a big tirade about eltons misogeny speech. ok, it was a dumb speech on elton's part, but then keith goes about about "oh yeah! well if you think that's bad what about obama! he's black! you think he doesnt get shit for it??!!" ... while obama was never even brought up
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
I saw this article on Slate.

The Superdelegate Wall
The math for Clinton is even worse than you think.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/trailhead/archive/2008/04/10/the-superdelegate-wall.aspx



Cliff Notes version: If every state goes down how we think they'll go down, Clinton will have to win 80% of the uncommitted superdelegates. Even if she wins every remaining state by a 10-pt margin, that percentage would drop to only 70%

This assumes Michigan/Florida aren't counted.
 

APF

Member
Mandark said:
1. You appear to be spinning for an argument you don't actually buy.
2. You contradict yourself by saying they're not a state actor, when their political wing is an elected part of the state, making them both state actors and non-state actors, depending.
3. You also acknowledge they're defacto leaders who need to be included in any real peace agreement.
4. While you worded your response as though you were defending Obama, it in fact underlines his position as hypocritical.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
scorcho said:
they won popular support within their territory because they a. provided public services and social service networks that Fatah/Palestinian Authority didn't, and b. weren't blatantly corrupt. it's not so simple to simply paint them as a terrorist organization and wash our hands of any need to deal with them.

Nonetheless, they support random attacks against civilians and indoctrination of youths into martyrdom. Palestinians wishing to conduct negotiations are free to elect a representative free of such crimes and even if there weren't it does not justify association with the criminality of Hamas. If that means that they consign themselves to death, then at least they can die without the shame of raping the minds of their own children.

Selecting Hamas however does little for them except to associate and ingratiate themselves with criminals. If they insist on Hamas being the representative then they should be given a mandate.

Disassociate from Hamas or be wiped out alongside them. Obviously any mandate has to provide facilities and services equal to or better than Hamas is currently offering to make a convincingly humane offer.

The issue is less about dealing with Hamas than quarantining the Palestinians who don't support such garbage from the ones that do, and then finally eradicating the infection that is Hamas once it is achieved. Much easier to kill militants when you can isolate them in certain areas and aim toward eradicating anything alive inside it.
 

Mandark

Small balls, big fun!
Atrus said:
The issue is less about dealing with Hamas than quarantining the Palestinians who don't support such garbage from the ones that do, and then finally eradicating the infection that is Hamas once it is achieved. Much easier to kill militants when you can isolate them in certain areas and aim toward eradicating anything alive inside it.

Yikes.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom