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PoliGAF Interim Thread of Tears/Lapel Pins (ScratchingHisCheek-Gate)

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Amir0x

Banned
reilo said:
Go read back a couple of pages - specifically, read APFs comments. He believes that Obama's response to Hillary's and McCain's criticism is worse than anything Hillary has done - and the worst moment of the entire primaries so far.

I'm not even joking. These are the people they are pandering to.

The Obama response was "ok" - there's some to criticize in it, as I did myself. There's much more to criticize in THAT then there is to criticize in this bittergate crap where there was actually zero things to criticize (provided your I.Q. reaches above 70, and you don't drool).

But the entire flap is entirely media driven garbage. The media has been playing the fence all season, but this is the real first pathetic thing I've seen them latch onto.

"WOW, AMERICANS ARE ANGRY? HOW DARE YOU!"
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
WTF double post.

Fix the damn server Amir.

EDIT: Moved this from the bottom of the last page so it doesn't get lost.

Holy shit. Guess who this was written by:

Why, ask many Democrats and media commentators, won’t Hillary Rodham Clinton see the long odds against her, put her own ambitions aside, and gracefully embrace Barack Obama as the inevitable Democratic nominee?

Here is why: She and Bill Clinton both devoutly believe that Obama’s likely victory is a disaster-in-waiting. Naive Democrats just don’t see it. And a timid, pro-Obama press corps, in their view, won’t tell the story.

Rip off the duct tape and here is what they would say: Obama has serious problems with Jewish voters (goodbye Florida), working-class whites (goodbye Ohio) and Hispanics (goodbye, New Mexico).

Republicans will also ruthlessly exploit openings that Clinton — in the genteel confines of an intraparty contest — never could. Top targets: Obama’s radioactive personal associations, his liberal ideology, his exotic life story, his coolly academic and elitist style.

If you guessed CoolTrick, then you were wrong.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9564.html
 
Amir0x said:
The Obama response was "ok" - there's some to criticize in it, as I did myself. There's much more to criticize in THAT then there is to criticize in this bittergate crap where there was actually zero things to criticize (provided your I.Q. reaches above 70, and you don't drool).

But the entire flap is entirely media driven garbage. The media has been playing the fence all season, but this is the real first pathetic thing I've seen them latch onto.

"WOW, AMERICANS ARE ANGRY? HOW DARE YOU!"
I agree. I was kind of turned off by his response, but I can imagine he is getting pissed about all these empty and immature attacks.
 

Lemonz

Member
reilo said:
http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/04/latest-pennsylv.html

April 11th:

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1477

Looking for a new one after the bitter comment...

ARG:

http://americanresearchgroup.com/pres08/padem8-705.html

Down 20. Ouch.

Wait, ARG:

hi-level-median-error-through-022008.JPG


Take it with a grain of salt.

Let me add this.

"The poll, which topped the Drudge Report on Monday afternoon (”shock poll”), was issued by American Research Group Inc. (ARG). In the poll, conducted on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, 57% of likely Democratic voters said they were supporting Sen. Clinton, compared with 37% for Sen. Obama. Just last week, each candidate received 45% in an ARG poll in the state. Other recent polls generally show a much smaller Clinton lead.

But there are reasons to question ARG polling numbers. In a polling report card of 2008 primary accuracy issued by a rival survey company, ARG ranked in the bottom half of more than three dozen polling firms, among 2008 primaries through late February. It also ranked near the bottom in another ranking of pollster accuracy at fivethirtyeight.com, a Web site that tracks the Electoral College. And, as I wrote last month, the widely tracked polling averages at the political Web site Real Clear Politics don’t include ARG numbers, because of concerns about transparency. Like they’ve been in Pennsylvania, ARG polls also were volatile in previous primaries, notably in Wisconsin, which saw a 16-point swing in just two days."

"Other pollsters’ numbers disagree with ARG’s. Clay Richards, who runs the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute’s Pennsylvania poll, said he doesn’t expect his poll that will be published Tuesday to show much difference from the last one, which had a Clinton lead of six points. “I don’t see that much movement in Pennsylvania myself,” Mr. Richards said by phone from Harrisburg on Monday. He declined to comment specifically on his rival’s contradictory numbers."

"Both pollsters agreed that Sen. Obama hasn’t been hurt much by his remarks about small-town Pennsylvania voters last week. Mr. Bennett said few respondents mentioned them. Mr. Richards said, “My hunch is won’t make much of a difference because most voters who might feel insulted by his comments were already Clinton voters or republicans who weren’t going to vote for him, anyway.”

http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/is-clintons-pennsylvania-lead-really-20-points-319/
 

GhaleonEB

Member
Lemonz said:
Excellent find, indeed.

"Both pollsters agreed that Sen. Obama hasn’t been hurt much by his remarks about small-town Pennsylvania voters last week. Mr. Bennett said few respondents mentioned them. Mr. Richards said, “My hunch is won’t make much of a difference because most voters who might feel insulted by his comments were already Clinton voters or republicans who weren’t going to vote for him, anyway.”
Nail. Head.
 
reilo said:
WTF double post.

Fix the damn server Amir.

EDIT: Moved this from the bottom of the last page so it doesn't get lost.

Holy shit. Guess who this was written by:


If you guessed CoolTrick, then you were wrong.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9564.html

The major flaw in that opinion piece is that it assumes what the Clintons are fighting this selfless fight for the party and America. Now that's naive. Or rather, disingenuous.
 

APF

Member
reilo said:
Go read back a couple of pages - specifically, read APFs comments. He believes that Obama's response to Hillary's and McCain's criticism is worse than anything Hillary has done - and the worst moment of the entire primaries so far.
No, what I said was it was the most assinine thing I've heard him say, and, "the most retarded kindergarten-level politics I've seen so far from an actual candidate in this campaign."
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
APF said:
No, what I said was it was the most assinine thing I've heard him say, and, "the most retarded kindergarten-level politics I've seen so far from an actual candidate in this campaign."

How did I paraphrase you incorrectly?
 

Amir0x

Banned
APF said:
Now now, I wouldn't want you to start reading the Bible now or anything.

"Clinging" to these things is vastly different than finding solace in their knowledge. "Clinging" can actually be damaging to society.

Obama is right, media is wrong again. APF follows for the ride. How am I not surprised.
 

mashoutposse

Ante Up
Instigator said:
The major flaw in that opinion piece is that it assumes what the Clintons are fighting this selfless fight for the party and America. Now that's naive. Or rather, disingenuous.
The Clintons made $109 mil off of their last presidency. I'd use much stronger language than 'naive' or 'disingenuous.'
 

APF

Member
Amir0x said:
"Clinging" to these things is vastly different than finding solace in their knowledge. "Clinging" can actually be damaging to society.

Obama is right, media is wrong again. APF follows for the ride. How am I not surprised.
Wait; explain your point, because I don't think your comment is consistent with Obama's spin.


Edit: hey I'm an Atheist myself--I'd say much worse things about the reasons people choose to believe than "bitterness," but I'm not a Presidential candidate. Yet.
 

Amir0x

Banned
He didn't say they choose to believe because they are bitter. He said they choose to CLING to these things because they are bitter.

And that's absolutely fucking true.

If your argument is he should be a more astute politician and sugar coat things with a higher fucking calorie content like Fat Joe breaking into a chocolate laced cheese cake, that's your own problem. I want my politicians to say it like it should be said, and the media to grow up enough to interpret the gradations in society.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
Amir0x said:
He didn't say they choose to believe because they are bitter. He said they choose to CLING to these things because they are bitter.

And that's absolutely fucking true.

If your argument is he should be a more astute politician and sugar coat things with a higher fucking calorie content like Fat Joe breaking into a chocolate laced cheese cake, that's your own problem. I want my politicians to say it like it should be said, and the media to grow up enough to interpret the gradations in society.

Ok, I agree with that in theory, but Obama's absolutely shameless pandering to that crowd in Ohio kind of cuts against that, ya know? You can say he was just telling the truth, and to a large extent he was, but he had absolutely no problem preying on those anti-trade anti-NAFTA fears in Ohio.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Odrion said:
First Muslim, then an extreme Catholic, now an atheist.

My god, Obama is Madonna.

:lol
Not how I expected this post to finish
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Oh Scarborough.

Obama is now easier to beat in November than Hillary by McCain because of the bitter comment?

The media never seizes to amaze with their idiocy.

schuelma said:
Ok, I agree with that in theory, but Obama's absolutely shameless pandering to that crowd in Ohio kind of cuts against that, ya know? You can say he was just telling the truth, and to a large extent he was, but he had absolutely no problem preying on those anti-trade anti-NAFTA fears in Ohio.

I'd argue being part of the administration that was the driving force behind NAFTA and then proclaiming that you will fix those problems and were always anti-NAFTA [despite voting to extend it multiple times in congress...] as the shameless pandering to your constituents, but what the fuck do I know?
 

Amir0x

Banned
schuelma said:
Ok, I agree with that in theory, but Obama's absolutely shameless pandering to that crowd in Ohio kind of cuts against that, ya know? You can say he was just telling the truth, and to a large extent he was, but he had absolutely no problem preying on those anti-trade anti-NAFTA fears in Ohio.

If one major way Obama sees for these people to stop clinging to these things is to rise up above it and believe in the hope of change or whatever the fuck else, then obviously he's going to exploit the reason they feel this bitterness and tell them there's a light at the end of the tunnel if he's elected.
 

schuelma

Wastes hours checking old Famitsu software data, but that's why we love him.
Amir0x said:
If one major way Obama sees for these people to stop clinging to these things is to rise up above it and believe in the hope of change or whatever the fuck else, then obviously he's going to exploit the reason they feel this bitterness and tell them there's a light at the end of the tunnel if he's elected.

How..noble of him.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Amir0x said:
If your argument is he should be a more astute politician and sugar coat things with a higher fucking calorie content like Fat Joe breaking into a chocolate laced cheese cake, that's your own problem. I want my politicians to say it like it should be said, and the media to grow up enough to interpret the gradations in society.

Maybe APF's argument is that even though we apparently treat the dummies amongst us as sheep, even feigning disgust at some of the reactions here to the random poll showing the uneducated supporting Hillary in higher numbers, they are, in fact, happy sheep quite comfortable with their lot and we should acknowledge that and leave them be.

So on the one hand, Obama tells us why people may feel a certain way, and on the other the media tells us this is exactly how and why they should be offended by his remarks. Only the latter is considered not condescending and elitist though. Only the latter will ignore the overturning of a GOP-controlled Congress and somehow not even admit "bitter" into its lexicon.

Even Bill Kristol hopped on the elitist train except he wasn't the conductor somehow.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
What? Now Obama has a disdain of middle America, according to Bill Kristol of the NYT?!

WOW.

Barack is more middle America than any of the current candidates in the race!
 
schuelma said:
Ok, I agree with that in theory, but Obama's absolutely shameless pandering to that crowd in Ohio kind of cuts against that, ya know? You can say he was just telling the truth, and to a large extent he was, but he had absolutely no problem preying on those anti-trade anti-NAFTA fears in Ohio.

The argument isn't about pandering, or not pandering, it's about using social issues to replace a feeling of powerlessness in economic ones. Obama's rhetoric in Ohio was about economic issues, adressing said bitterness head on. I'm not sure where the issue is there?
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Obama ascribes their anti-trade sentiment to economic frustration — as if there are no respectable arguments against more free-trade agreements. This is particularly cynical, since he himself has been making those arguments, exploiting and fanning this sentiment that he decries. Aren’t we then entitled to assume Obama’s opposition to Nafta and the Colombian trade pact is merely cynical pandering to frustrated Americans?

Motherfucker, are you serious? Of course, this wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that McCain and Bush both support free trade agreements and the now defunct Columbian trade agreement?

Then there’s what Obama calls “anti-immigrant sentiment.” Has Obama done anything to address it? It was John McCain, not Obama, who took political risks to try to resolve the issue of illegal immigration by putting his weight behind an attempt at immigration reform.

Furthermore, some concerns about unchecked and unmonitored illegal immigration are surely legitimate. Obama voted in 2006 (to take just one example) for the Secure Fence Act, which was intended to control the Mexican border through various means, including hundreds of miles of border fence. Was Obama then just accommodating bigotry?

This is GOLD.

Obama is now a bigot because he supported stronger border control. Of course, when the republicans do it, it's for safety reasons, no?

This article, ugh.

What does this mean for Obama’s presidential prospects? He’s disdainful of small-town America — one might say, of bourgeois America. He’s usually good at disguising this. But in San Francisco the mask slipped. And it’s not so easy to get elected by a citizenry you patronize.

And what are the grounds for his supercilious disdain? If he were a war hero, if he had a career of remarkable civic achievement or public service — then he could perhaps be excused an unattractive but in a sense understandable hauteur. But what has Barack Obama accomplished that entitles him to look down on his fellow Americans?

That last statement is so asinine that I don't even know how to respond to it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/o...f=opinion&oref=slogin&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
New Clinton ad now attacking Obama's bitter comment. Unbelievable.

So, Hillary about that Karl Rove playbook...
 
reilo said:
Oh Scarborough.

Obama is now easier to beat in November than Hillary by McCain because of the bitter comment?

The media never seizes to amaze with their idiocy.



I'd argue being part of the administration that was the driving force behind NAFTA and then proclaiming that you will fix those problems and were always anti-NAFTA [despite voting to extend it multiple times in congress...] as the shameless pandering to your constituents, but what the fuck do I know?

Scarborough is completely disingenous and his cousin Hannity is a complete loon. Morning Joe has turned into a general "Obama just can't win" and "Hillary's probably the strongest candidate and we'll never count her out" while Scarborough tries to keep a straight face all the time being aroused by concept of McCain as president. All he's doing is pushing the "Limbaugh angle" while claiming he doesn't support any one candidate.

It's a shame that CNN is so crappy in the morning as well and Fox is Fox. I may trying catching network news before leaving for school or just leaving the tv off from now on.
 
reilo said:
WTF double post.

Fix the damn server Amir.

EDIT: Moved this from the bottom of the last page so it doesn't get lost.

Holy shit. Guess who this was written by:





If you guessed CoolTrick, then you were wrong.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9564.html

The point of the article is to highlight Obama's weaknesses, and it does a good job
An undecided Democratic superdelegate told us many Jewish voters are itching for a reason to break with the party and side with Republicans, who have embraced the Israeli cause with passion. A small shift could swing swing states like Florida and Pennsylvania, which have significant Jewish populations.

Obama won only about one-third of Hispanic votes on Super Tuesday — and did even worse a month later in Texas. A Democratic nominee needs big margins with Hispanics to win states like New Mexico, California, Colorado and Arizona. In the fall, Obama would be running against a Republican with a record on immigration that will resonate with Hispanics.

Then there’s the lower-income white vote. Does it seem odd that a woman with a polarizing reputation would be rolling up enormous margins among some of the country’s most traditional voters? Three out of every four blue-collar whites in small towns and rural areas of Ohio voted for Clinton over Obama on March 4. The reality is, this is already an electorate with deep cultural divisions — and that’s in the Democratic Party.

The problem is that Obama does average to bad with the most reliable demographics, such as blue collar workers and older white people, and good to great with the most unreliable demographics, mainly blacks and young voters who have shaky track records when it comes to actually showing up in November. Obama is banking on the hope that he'll be able to bring those people out in mass, like never before. Lots of black and young voters have come out this primary season, leading to some big wins, but there's also Texas where the low black turn out contributed to his loss.

In the article Obama's pollster dismisses the doubts, saying that the party will come together when the nominee is chosen. I agree with him but it's undeniable that McCain is going to be a very tough opponent for Obama. He may be a Bush republican to those of us who know his recent record, but many people STILL think he's the maverick of 2000, and they seem to trust him. The RNC is painting Obama as an unknown, something that cannot be trusted. We'll see who's right in November
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
PhoenixDark said:
The point of the article is to highlight Obama's weaknesses, and it does a good job


The problem is that Obama does average to bad with the most reliable demographics, such as blue collar workers and older white people, and good to great with the most unreliable demographics, mainly blacks and young voters who have shaky track records when it comes to actually showing up in November. Obama is banking on the hope that he'll be able to bring those people out in mass, like never before. Lots of black and young voters have come out this primary season, leading to some big wins, but there's also Texas where the low black turn out contributed to his loss.

In the article Obama's pollster dismisses the doubts, saying that the party will come together when the nominee is chosen. I agree with him but it's undeniable that McCain is going to be a very tough opponent for Obama. He may be a Bush republican to those of us who know his recent record, but many people STILL think he's the maverick of 2000, and they seem to trust him. The RNC is painting Obama as an unknown, something that cannot be trusted. We'll see who's right in November

He had a hard time with those groups against Hillary, but I don't think he'll have a problem with those groups against McCain.

I'd argue the known has become more untrustworthy these days...
 

tanod

when is my burrito
It's nice to see Obama hitting back on this ridiculous BS. Gives me more faith that he'll take the fight to McCain in the GE.

I think overall this is going to end up being a good thing for him (getting people to hear about about paying off his own student loans and more about his upbringing in a single-parent household) like the Wright situation turned out to be (increasing his visibility as a Christian) with the general public.

@PD: You and other former/current Hillary supports refuse to accept the FACT that just because certain Democratic primary voter groups (Hispanics, Jewish) don't vote for Obama now, that doesn't at all mean that they are automatic votes for McCain or that they will stay home. That's a ridiculous assumption.
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Scarborough: "This isn't about the mass media as Rachel Maddow tried to proclaim. This reinforces negative stereotypes about Obama and the democratic party that the republicans have been touting for years."

So, Scarborough taking up the Clinton angle on this.

"People wanted to connect with candidates on a gut level in 1994 and 2000."

So, how does that gut feel after 8 years of George W Bush? I think a lot of us have built an immunity to Tums.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
thekad said:
Why are Jews voting for Clinton anyway?

Combination of these things:

Name recognition, her age (Jewish voters skew older), support for Israel (obviously Obama does too but his policies aren't as well known or understood despite being largely the same as Hillary's), and to a lesser degree: in-grained/historical ethnic fears/concerns/stereotypes related to the african-american community and their relations to the Jewish community.
 
reilo said:
He had a hard time with those groups against Hillary, but I don't think he'll have a problem with those groups against McCain.

I'd argue the known has become more untrustworthy these days...

With certain demographics yes. For instance I bet the democrats who voted for Hillary in Ohio will vote for Obama this November. I'm more concerned about the older white vote, which is quite reliable and has been pretty firm in Hillary's pocket.

Also I have to retract my post on black turnout being unreliable

In 2004, turnout rates for citizens were 67 percent for non-Hispanic whites, 60 percent for blacks, 44 percent for Asians and 47 percent for Hispanics (of any race). These rates were higher than the previous presidential election by 5 percentage points for non-Hispanic whites and 3 points for blacks. By contrast, the voting rates for Asian and Hispanic citizens did not change. These data pertain to those who identified themselves as being of a single race.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/voting/004986.html

If the black turnout increased by 3% for Kerry it's going to be much larger this year. I'd also imagine there'll be an even bigger push to disenfranchise people...
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Amir0x said:
He didn't say they choose to believe because they are bitter. He said they choose to CLING to these things because they are bitter.

And that's absolutely fucking true.

If your argument is he should be a more astute politician and sugar coat things with a higher fucking calorie content like Fat Joe breaking into a chocolate laced cheese cake, that's your own problem. I want my politicians to say it like it should be said, and the media to grow up enough to interpret the gradations in society.

Honestly, that's a terrible way to explain what he was trying to say. And completely contradictory to what he ultimately clarified.He said "clinging" wasn't a bad thing. Let the man explain it himself, to an audience of folks who were probably the most insulted by it. This is the video of the faith forum and he answers the question within the first couple minutes. Like I said, the comments rubbed me the wrong way, but his explanation definitely makes sense to me.
 
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