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PoliGAF Interim Thread of Tears/Lapel Pins (ScratchingHisCheek-Gate)

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GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
lopaz said:
Well when he spoke of "clinging to religion and guns" that suggests that those issues aren't important. I agree with him there, but to the people who care about them, being told the issues you care about are just a result of your bitterness could well come off as patronising
See, I didn't get that at all, and i don't see how anyone could, if they weren't already looking for dirt.

All he was saying is that people rely on their faiths and personal rights like guns etc when their government fails them. I do not see how any reasonable person can interpret it as calling those issues unimportant.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Kildace said:
Did you read it? I thought it was a very interesting article and that there was nothing at all derogatory to either Obama or his dad in there.

Oh I agree the piece itself is pretty good. It just doesn't seem to be news at all that's relevant to the campaign.
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
Tamanon said:
Oh I agree the piece itself is pretty good. It just doesn't seem to be news at all that's relevant to the campaign.
Welcome to the shitty game of American Politics
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/14/pa-voters-divided-over-ob_n_96686.html
SHENANDOAH, Pa. — Yes, some Democrats in Pennsylvania's Rust Belt communities were upset by Barack Obama's suggestion that voters there "cling to guns or religion" because of bitterness about their economic lot. But many more seem to think it was no big deal _ and if there's a problem it's with the political slapfest that has followed.

Obama's comment, which the Illinois senator made during a San Francisco fundraiser last week, set off an exchange of insults between the final contenders for the Democratic presidential nomination as they vie for blue-collar support in the state's April 22 primary. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has criticized the comment as "elitist," while Obama has mocked the New York senator's own recent emphasis on support for gun owners' rights.

In interviews Monday in Pennsylvania communities like the ones to which Obama referred, Democrats on both sides of the race were divided over the controversy.

"It's so difficult to watch every word," said Mary Ellen Matunis, a Clinton backer from Shenandoah.

"I was not offended," she said. "Poor choice of words, but I think it was just misspoken."


Matunis, 56, is a retired teacher in this central Pennsylvania borough of barely 5,000 residents that was once a boom town of the anthracite coal industry. But that industry has been on the decline for longer than most residents have been alive, and the textile factories that followed are gone too.

Dennis Yezulinas, another Clinton supporter in Shenandoah, said he is more offended by the rhetorical fight that followed Obama's comment than by the remark itself.

"Not just for the good of the Democratic Party, but for the good of the country, they need to make it less contentious," said Yezulinas, a former state prison guard who has been laid off from a plant that manufactures doors in a neighboring town.


In the southeastern Pennsylvania community of Coatesville _ a once booming steel city outside of Philadelphia that now has empty storefronts downtown _ two Clinton supporters sharing a meal at a Coatesville restaurant said they felt Obama was wrong to stereotype small-town voters.

"It's like we're not smart enough to understand what the politicians are saying. It's an insult to our intelligence," said Susan Kamerdze, 50.

Mike Zemacke, 57, said that, while Coatesville has seen better days, he's not bitter. He said he used to work as a press operator before a disability led him to retirement.

"I'm just frustrated," he said. "I used to live a lot better than this."

At another Coatesville eatery, lifelong resident Armon Richardson said he remains firmly committed to Obama.

"We're getting in the silly season," said Richardson, 33, a computer analyst. "It's being overanalyzed."

In Pottsville, a city south of Shenandoah that also thrived during the coal boom and is now known as the home of Yuengling beer, coffeehouse owner Mary Ann Price, 56, said she is undecided about which candidate will get her vote in the primary, but that Obama's remarks won't affect her decision. She said she is more concerned about U.S. standing in the international community.

"The whole world hates us, and with good reason," she said.

Mike McGeever, 47, a Clinton backer who works for a neighborhood revitalization agency in Pottsville, called Obama's comment "uninformed, rather than elitist."

"To throw a blanket indictment out there against the people in this area, it is definitely patronizing," he said.

Truck salesman Bob Bildheiser, 49, said he is tentatively supporting Obama and that he agreed with the point that Obama was trying to make about the nation's economic problems.

"The people are bitter about the economy, about jobs, about the gas prices. It's terrible," he said.

At the California event, Obama said some small-town voters bitter about their economic circumstances "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Clinton, who polls show still leading in the Pennsylvania primary, criticized the comment as "elitist and divisive," and suggested that it could cost Democrats the presidency if Obama were the nominee. Obama said he was disappointed by Clinton's criticism and questioned her opposition to the NAFTA free-trade agreement that some voters believe eliminated thousands of U.S. jobs.
 
Tamanon said:
Wow, that's patronizing actually. What is your wife's contribution to the website? Recipes! :p


BTW, Politico is REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrel now.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0408/9610.html

Obama's Dad's long-lost paper on socialism. Really.

The conservatives will now brand him as a hardcore socialist, saying it's been in his DNA all along. Obama just isn't fit to be president.

It will probably be the main topic on Hannity's and Rush's show today along with Bittergate and Marxist-Gate. Just wait.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
SleazyC said:
Maybe I am a pessimist, but I think that any chances of seeing a Democrat elected this November are all but gone, if not slipping away slowly each day that that Democratic primary stretches on.

All the infighting and the bitter aftertaste that will be left when one candidate is elected as the Dem nominee is looking to be too damaging to me.
McCain was sent to die. Once Obama has the nomination, the full extent of his popularity will finally take shape as the full Dem party will be behind him. He's gonna crush McCain like a bug in the GE. The only thing that'll keep him from becoming president at this rate comes with a scope on the barrel. All IMO. I think the closeness of the GE is more of a media fabrication than the current Dem primary race. PEACE.
 

theBishop

Banned
lopaz said:
what? I'm pretty sure elitism was not a criticism commonly levelled at him before this

Its a joke considering he's worth "only" 1.5million. Hillary is worth 35million not counting Bill. McCain is worth 40.
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Somebody forward that Huffington Post article to Harold Ickes so he knows that the case is closed.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Guileless said:
Somebody forward that Huffington Post article to Harold Ickes so he knows that the case is closed.

I'm surprised Harold Ickes hasn't been punched in the face by the Clinton campaign. He was one of the main proponents of punishing Michigan and Florida before the campaign. No matter how much he tries to argue they should count, he's one of the people that pushed for them not to.

It's his own personal NAFTA.
 
GaimeGuy said:
How the fuck does anyone view that statement as elitist?
It is really funny to Obama being labeled as 'elitest'. He's the black guy raised in a single-parent home. The other candidates are a former first lady and fighter pilot who's family name is on government buildings . . . but the black guy from a single-parent home is the elitest? The irony is mind-bending.
 
Pimpwerx said:
McCain was sent to die. Once Obama has the nomination, the full extent of his popularity will finally take shape as the full Dem party will be behind him. He's gonna crush McCain like a bug in the GE. The only thing that'll keep him from becoming president at this rate comes with a scope on the barrel. All IMO. I think the closeness of the GE is more of a media fabrication than the current Dem primary race. PEACE.

Once the GE is in full swing, people will begin to see how boring and uncharismatic McCain is. Just listening to him speak up in a podium is so unappealing, and has very poor public speaking skills. It's kinda hard to watch.
 

lopaz

Banned
Pimpwerx said:
McCain was sent to die. Once Obama has the nomination, the full extent of his popularity will finally take shape as the full Dem party will be behind him. He's gonna crush McCain like a bug in the GE. The only thing that'll keep him from becoming president at this rate comes with a scope on the barrel. All IMO. I think the closeness of the GE is more of a media fabrication than the current Dem primary race. PEACE.

It'd be nice if he won by a landslide though. That'd give him a lot more power to get stuff down
 

lopaz

Banned
speculawyer said:
It is really funny to Obama being labeled as 'elitest'. He's the black guy raised in a single-parent home. The other candidates are a former first lady and fighter pilot who's family name is on government buildings . . . but the black guy from a single-parent home is the elitest? The irony is mind-bending.

So we should look at their roots instead of current attitudes? riiight
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Elite and elitist and different things. If you were the editor of the Harvard Law Review, you are at the very top of the pyramid in modern America and squarely in the elite. That doesn't necessarily mean you are elitist. But if you think that various social pathologies prevent the working class from fully embracing the liberal project, which is what Sen. Obama said and no doubt what his San Francisco audience believes, you are definitely elitist.

Do yall really lack the empathy to understand why he sounded elitist or are you just so geared up into campaign mode you can't stop thinking in the adversarial terms of a closely contested campaign?
 

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
Cheebs said:
you selectively bolded. A lot of the comments are negative in that but you only bolded the pro-obama ones.


?? i only see two negative ones. the rest either agree with the comments, or have no issue in them.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
APF said:
I don't care about whether or not my butler, maid, gardener, pool-boy, etc are happy--that's what the first and the 15th are for. But I'm also not going to try and tell them the reason they hold onto religious beliefs, or feel that abortion, or gun control, or whatever, are important issues, is because they have crappy jobs working for an ungrateful and harsh taskmaster, all because mommy government doesn't outstretch her luminous arms to lift them on high; especially when, for example, things like abortion are a huge reason many people like me vote the way I tend to vote.

But you will try and tell us exactly why "they" should be disgusted and appalled at Obama's comments, correct? Even though you imply, albeit sarcastically, that you have no clue as to the small town lifestyle and are seemingly out of touch yourself. So you'd rather not talk at all about why there is bitterness and resentment to play it safe. To not step on any toes.

"When I arrived here in 1961, this was a booming town, and we had at least 40 department stores, Mack Truck, Bethlehem Steel - and they've all gone by the wayside, and a lot of bitter people," he said.

A lot of bitter people. I am one of them. I haven't quite reached Slurpy levels of surliness but it's only April.

Guileless said:
But if you think that various social pathologies prevent the working class from fully embracing the liberal project, which is what Sen. Obama said and no doubt what his San Francisco audience believes, you are definitely elitist.

I think he basically called out a large segment of people in this country and that the truth hurts. That's basically it.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
lopaz said:
So we should look at their roots instead of current attitudes? riiight

Of course. We need to examine current attitudes in the context of which they happen.

You could call him elitist. It's a poor spin.

Another way to spin it is that Obama has deep insight into the issues that plague middle america; shows that he knows what's plaguing them, and that at the very least he's recognized the problems, that do need to be fixed, rather than pandering to other issues, that don't end up fixing anything for anyone.

But back to the poor spin; in this context; it's a spin created by a media desperate to create drama in a race that is all but finished. In the context, they warp and twist a few words, while ignoring the context from which the people came from; Obama's rise from a low-middle class childhood into a senator and potential (not just potential, but likely) presidential candidate.

If elitism is a problem... if it's a problem to show how out of touch someone is, then surely they should have a problem with HRC's background as well. Do you think the dems would even touch this woman if she weren't associated with a previous president? Just like do you think George W Bush would've ever been elected has his namesake father not also been president?
This is not even counting their wealth.

On the otherhand... if elitism is used to denote a high level of intelligence, a man of great merit, who takes careful consideration to discern clearly the issues affecting a people, and one that doesn't fake rhetoric, or obfuscate or dumb down the issue out of respect to the people he addresses... is it a bad thing?

In some ways, you can gauge the merit of the candidate by the sort of criticism leveled at him.

But be accused of been elitist, even when your background is from a single parent, middle class family... you know, something has gone right in that persons life.
 

harSon

Banned
Guileless said:
Elite and elitist and different things. If you were the editor of the Harvard Law Review, you are at the very top of the pyramid in modern America and squarely in the elite. That doesn't necessarily mean you are elitist. But if you think that various social pathologies prevent the working class from fully embracing the liberal project, which is what I believe, you are definitely elitist.

Do yall really lack the empathy to understand why he sounded elitist or are you just so geared up into campaign mode you can't stop thinking in the adversarial terms of a closely contested campaign?

:)
 
lopaz said:
So we should look at their roots instead of current attitudes? riiight
Oh jeez. We all know these campaigns are a charade. All of these candidates say crap about Joe Six pack in private. The ridiculous things these people must say & think to get elected is pathetic.

Lemme let you in on a secret . . . anyone in the final stages of running for president is an elitest and they all have some disdain for some of the the proles that make them jump through some stupid hoops to remain viable candidates.
 
Guileless said:
But if you think that various social pathologies prevent the working class from fully embracing the liberal project, which is what Sen. Obama said
He suggested
Being failed by government in the past -> Doubting the government for future solutions
which seems pretty basic.
 
While I'm sure that those "family recipes" were thrown on there by some web designer on a deadline, I find it funny that they're such outrageously advanced dishes. "Ahi Tuna with Napa Cabbage Slaw" and "Passion Fruit Mousse"? What the hell, old family recipes are things like fried chicken, biscuits and gravy or meat loaf. Seriously, "Passion Fruit Mousse"? Did she spend some time as a pastry chef at a fine dining restaurant at some point after being born a millionaire? Rachael Ray is a professional chef and spent years honing her craft to the point where she could invent dishes like Rosemary Chicken Breasts, Brown Butter and Balsamic Ravioli, Warm Spinach Salad with Pancetta and Sweet Vinaigrette. How out of touch do you have to be to think stealing that is the way to pass yourself off as a "home cookin' Grandma"?

Granny makes the best caviar and balsalmic ravioli. Just like her grandmother made it on the Santa Fe trail. It really got them through the hard times.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
Cheebs said:
you selectively bolded. A lot of the comments are negative in that but you only bolded the pro-obama ones.

Gotta love the reporting on anecdotal evidence. It makes good for a couple page hits until the polls come/came out and show it had a minor, if any, effect on the voting public.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Someone should ask her what she thinks the best par of her Farlaffle is, or whatever it was called. But, then again, I don't think Cindy's allowed to speak on the trail if it's not a random attack on another woman's patriotism:p
 
Duane Cunningham said:
While I'm sure that those "family recipes" were thrown on there by some web designer on a deadline, I find it funny that they're such outrageously advanced dishes. "Ahi Tuna with Napa Cabbage Slaw" and "Passion Fruit Mousse"? What the hell, old family recipes are things like fried chicken, biscuits and gravy or meat loaf. Seriously, "Passion Fruit Mousse"? Did she spend some time as a pastry chef at a fine dining restaurant at some point after being born a millionaire? Rachael Ray is a professional chef and spent years honing her craft to the point where she could invent dishes like Rosemary Chicken Breasts, Brown Butter and Balsamic Ravioli, Warm Spinach Salad with Pancetta and Sweet Vinaigrette. How out of touch do you have to be to think stealing that is the way to pass yourself off as a "home cookin' Grandma"?

Granny makes the best caviar and balsalmic ravioli. Just like her grandmother made it on the Santa Fe trail. It really got them through the hard times.

some might say the dishes are a bit elitist
 

Dartastic

Member
Duane Cunningham said:
Granny makes the best caviar and balsalmic ravioli. Just like her grandmother made it on the Santa Fe trail. It really got them through the hard times.

If they ain't usin' green chili in every dish they make, they ain't been to New Mexico, hence they ain't been on the Santa Fe trail.
 

theBishop

Banned
Maybe Obama is Elitist. I just remembered the story about how Bush served mcCain Hot Dogs at the white house. With that standard for Elitism, Obama looks like Lord Xerxes.
 

lopaz

Banned
Tamanon said:
Someone should ask her what she thinks the best par of her Farlaffle is, or whatever it was called. But, then again, I don't think Cindy's allowed to speak on the trail if it's not a random attack on another woman's patriotism:p

That's because she's a cunt.
no bans for witty references
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
JoshuaJSlone said:
He suggested
Being failed by government in the past -> Doubting the government for future solutions
which seems pretty basic.

That's what he later suggested he meant when it became a problem, but that is not what he said. What he said, in the words of Mickey Kaus, is that "once the Pennsylvanians get some jobs back, they'll change and become as enlightened as Obama or the San Franciscans to whom he was talking." That is clearly elitist.
 

Dartastic

Member

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Guileless said:
That's what he later suggested he meant when it became a problem, but that is not what he said. What he said, in the words of Mickey Kaus, is that "once the Pennsylvanians get some jobs back, they'll change and become as enlightened as Obama or the San Franciscans to whom he was talking." That is clearly elitist.

Nah, he said what he's pretty much has always said save that he chose words that the asshole media, speaking for the everyday little man, found so horribly insensitive. Like that random old white guy from PA that Fox questioned who absolutely agreed with him. The one voting McCain because he's a Navy vet.

But hey, keep on telling us what's "clearly" elitist or not. It's clearly elitist for you to do so and really drives your point home.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
Guileless said:
That's what he later suggested he meant when it became a problem, but that is not what he said. What he said, in the words of Mickey Kaus, is that "once the Pennsylvanians get some jobs back, they'll change and become as enlightened as Obama or the San Franciscans to whom he was talking." That is clearly elitist.

That made me LOL.

What he said is actually what somebody else said about him? That's a convenient talking point. Why don't you quote his own words about what he meant? Surely the person who spoke the words in the first place has a better understanding of what they mean than some 3rd party commentator.
 
theBishop said:
Maybe Obama is Elitist. I just remembered the story about how Bush served mcCain Hot Dogs at the white house. With that standard for Elitism, Obama looks like Lord Xerxes.

2416734842_fb9e606c5e.jpg
 

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
bob, elitist doesn't necessarily mean bad. Certainly it has a pejorative connotation, but whether an elitist view is good or bad depends on the eye of the beholder. My point is that seeming elitist hurts the chances of liberal politicians running for national office going back to Adlai Stevenson. The media is not being devious for pointing out the obvious. It's not like the Republicans will ignore it or approach it carefully, like Sen. Clinton has so far.

I won't be Debbie Downer anymore in yall's Obama thread. Carry on.

Sunshine, lollipops and rainbows,
Everything that's wonderful is sure to come your way
When you're in love to stay.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
it's a good point - the taint of being an 'elitist' will haunt Obama in the general elections, no matter how empty a label it is (at least imo). Republicans have been able to paint that angle against Democrats for decades and the media dutifully carries their water.
 
scorcho said:
it's a good point - the taint of being an 'elitist' will haunt Obama in the general elections, no matter how empty a label it is (at least imo). Republicans have been able to paint that angle against Democrats for decades and the media dutifully carries their water.

if gore was an elitist and kerry was an elitist and if we have to get rid of someone like Bush who has NOW the lowest ratings of presidential history, Ill take an elitist over a Republican any day
 
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