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[Door2Dawn]

nm

 

[XxenobladerxX]

Bu-bu-bu-but HILLARY!!!

That argument is valid,but if Obama can't get them out of there in a course of 16 months,what makes you think Hillary can get them out in 60 days?

 

[ralexand]

Honest question. Has anyone in the MSM aired anything from the message that Obama based his book on, The Audacity of Hope. It seems like that would be the most logical action to take as journalist after repeating the 30 second clips over and over again.

 

[Tamanon]

Honest question. Has anyone in the MSM aired anything from the message that Obama based his book on, The Audacity of Hope. It seems like that would be the most logical action to take as journalist after repeating the 30 second clips over and over again.

Hannity I think picked a small portion of it to air, the part talking about white tourists or whatever.

 

[GhaleonEB]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/20/us/politics/20race.html

Pretty good article surveying the discussion stirred since Obama's speech.

But Ms. Murguia said she hoped that Mr. Obama’s speech would help “create a safe space to talk about this, where people aren’t threatened or pigeonholed” and “can talk more openly and honestly about the tensions, both overt and as an undercurrent, that exist around race and racial politics.”

On the Internet and in many areas of the traditional news media, such a discussion was already taking shape. Some four million people watched Mr. Obama’s speech live, and it is now the top YouTube video.

The speech has stimulated passionate discussion on scores of blogs of varying ideological tendencies, and an article about the speech in The New York Times has provoked more than 2,250 comments.

On the ABC talk show “The View” on Wednesday morning, the co-hosts discussed the substance of Mr. Obama’s speech and its impact on the presidential campaign. “Finally we can talk about” race “without being afraid we are offending” others, one co-host, Barbara Walters, said, while Whoopi Goldberg said she “felt he was talking about stuff that we tiptoe around.”

 

[Particle Physicist]

:lol

He basically said Obama is as delusional as his followers and contradicted his statement about listening to the commanders on the ground.

and the constant snide remarks from hillary supporters about obama supporters continue. you know. this is really getting to cult like responses. very similar to the shit scientologist pull.

 

[User 10639]

and the constant snide remarks from hillary supporters about obama supporters continue. you know. this is really getting to cult like responses. very similar to the shit scientologist pull.

I really don't think siamesedreamer is a Clinton supporter. He does seem to have an odd fixation on Obama, though. That may be because conservatives (the smart ones, anyway) see Obama as more of a danger to them than Clinton given his status as the likely nominee and very possibly the next POTUS as well.

 

[mashoutposse]

:lol

He basically said Obama is as delusional as his followers and contradicted his statement about listening to the commanders on the ground.

He doesn't sound delusional to me. He's making perfect sense, actually.

Scroll down and click on 'Watch him explain his Iraq position »'

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/19/obama.interview/index.html

 

[electricpirate]

:lol

He basically said Obama is as delusional as his followers and contradicted his statement about listening to the commanders on the ground.

I don't have CNN, did he say that Obama wasn't going to listen to his commanders on the ground and that Obama was being duplicitious?

That's not really what Obama said, Obama's position was that he would listen to what they said, but he would do what he thought was right. He would take responsibility for the decisions.

 

[PhoenixDark]

A YouTube video mash-up that attacks Barack Obama on issues relating to his patriotism that has rocketed around the Internet in recent days was created in part by a prominent conservative talk radio producer.

"Is Obama Wright" splices together the most inflammatory language of Jeremiah Wright with a series of other issues that have arisen in the campaign, all of which have been fodder for a series of emails that question Obama's loyalty to the country.

On Monday night, it had just over 500 views. By early Wednesday evening, it had received over 38,000 and was in the hands of activists and operatives in both parties.

The video is listed on YouTube as being produced by a professional-sounding group called "NHaleMedia," but there is no such entity.

Rather the incendiary video -- which also includes footage of Malcolm X, the U.S. Olympians who raised their hand in the black power salute and the song "Fight the Power" -- is in part the amateur work of Lee Habeeb.

A former producer of the Laura Ingraham Show, Habeeb is the director of strategic content at Salem Radio Network, the conservative talk radio powerhouse that airs programs hosted by figures such as Bill Bennett and Hugh Hewitt

"I'm trying to join the YouTube generation and have some fun," Habeeb explained when asked in a telephone interview why he created the video. "We wanted to see if we could get in circulation."

But contacted yesterday morning, Habeeb initially wouldn't admit that he was responsible for the video.

"I will embrace its content," he first said. "But I’m not claiming or denying authorship."

Later yesterday afternoon, though, he called back to say he and two friends were behind the video.

Habeeb declined to reveal the identity of his co-producers, but did say that they are "conservatives who happen to be in media world" and are not working for any campaign. One, he said, works in film and the other is involved in crafting ads.

Habeeb said he had helped put together the video in his spare time and suggested that his employer had no problem with what he was doing.

"We’re a free speech network," Habeeb said. "We’re allowed to comment on race because Barack Obama is allowed to comment on race."

The video underscores both the danger presented to Obama by Wright's words as well as the opportunities and risks presented in the new media era.

Regardless of John McCain's pleas for civility, conservatives will target Obama squarely on matters relating to his race and patriotism. And now, after months of being relegated to dark whispers, Wright's words have given them their first real opportunity to thrust these issues into the center of the campaign.

Further, because of YouTube, the Internet and email, a figure like Habeeb, operating out of his home studio in Oxford, Mississippi, can create a home-made attack video that is seen by thousands and spread virally. And often, it can be done with total anonymity.

It's a pattern that will almost certainly continue should Obama get the nomination and a challenge his campaign is already grappling with. They created email rebuttals explaining his Christian faith and pride in America last year and had Obama craft his own YouTube video denouncing Wright's comments last week.

Asked directly if he believes Obama is a patriotic American, Habeeb said "absolutely." But he added that "his patriotism is not my kind of patriotism."

"I believe he is hiding his Marxism from the American people," Habeeb said.

And despite the inclusion of Malcolm X, the black Olympians and a rap song by Public Enemy, Habeeb claimed he was not being suggestive.

"I didn’t do this to make him like a scary black man."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonat...ama_video_crafted_by_talk_radio_producer.html

the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72B3...ama_video_crafted_by_talk_radio_producer.html

Pretty fucking stupid attack ad imo; interestingly it currently has 40,000 views compared to the Obama speech's 1.7 views on youtube

 

[electricpirate]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonat...ama_video_crafted_by_talk_radio_producer.html

the video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72B3...ama_video_crafted_by_talk_radio_producer.html

Pretty fucking stupid attack ad imo; interestingly it currently has 40,000 views compared to the Obama speech's 1.7 views on youtube

It's like a chess game, and the guy who made this video guessed the next move wrong. This video was obviously made with the belief that Obama would throw wright under a bus, and could show Obama as a pandering politician.

But when he didn't, it just makes the video look silly, especially the ending quote.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It's like a chess game, and the guy who made this video guessed the next move wrong. This video was obviously made with the belief that Obama would throw wright under a bus, and could show Obama as a pandering politician.

But when he didn't, it just makes the video look silly, especially the ending quote.

No one would have guessed he'd throw his grandma under the bus instead amirite

 

[Schattenjäger]

amirite

rarely.. and certainly not in this case <roll eyes>

 

[electricpirate]

rarely.. and certainly not in this case <roll eyes>

come on man, I chuckled

 

[Skellig Gra]

Latest Gallup shows Hillary up 7 points. Didn't see it anywhere so here it is.

Edit: Removed, apparently already posted!

 

[maximum360]

Give the public a week to digest this stuff so by Monday the polls will likely indicate where Obama really stands.

 

[electricpirate]

That was yesterdays poll me thinks, SiameseDreamer and others posted it earlier.

I expect the curve has flattened at this point, and will stay flat. If the message of the speech gets out, and the news networks stop trying to talk about it's effect, we could see it actually bump.

 

[siamesedreamer]

That argument is valid,but if Obama can't get them out of there in a course of 16 months,what makes you think Hillary can get them out in 60 days?

I haven't kept up too much with her plan. But, didn't she say yesterday the 60 days were for an evaluation (not the withdrawal period)?

That may be because conservatives (the smart ones, anyway) see Obama as more of a danger to them than Clinton given his status as the likely nominee and very possibly the next POTUS as well.

Obama's populist rhetoric scares the bejeezus out of me and others of my ilk. If I thought he was going to govern like Bill Clinton, then I wouldn't have a problem with him. But, I believe he won't and with the margins he'll have in Congress he can push through just about anything he wants.

I would much rather have Hillary as president. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

I don't have CNN, did he say that Obama wasn't going to listen to his commanders on the ground and that Obama was being duplicitious?

That's not really what Obama said, Obama's position was that he would listen to what they said, but he would do what he thought was right. He would take responsibility for the decisions.

Obama is essentially saying he'll do three different things at the same time - 1) listen to the commanders and 2) pull 1-2 combat brigades a month. Weir said commanders would not recommend a drawdown (in fact they are recommending to halt the surge drawdown). That directly conflicts with Obama telling us all combat brigades will be out in 16 months (unless he goes against the advice of the commanders). The power vacuum that would be left in every area we withdraw from will be filled in by...Iran (Weir's words, not mine). And 3) Yesterday, Obama also outlined something else in his foriegn policy plan:

Third, the danger of weak and failed states risks spreading poverty and refugees; genocide and disease. Now is the time to meet the goal of cutting extreme poverty in half, in part by doubling our foreign assistance while demanding more from those who receive it. And now is the time to build the capacity of regional partners in conflict prevention, peacekeeping, and the reconstruction of ravaged societies.

Does that include every nation but Iraq? I mean, how can you aid in creating what you're trying to prevent?

The fact of the matter is that if you're basing your vote for Obama on his plan to get out of Iraq, you're going to be sorely disappointed. Will he remove some troops? Yes...its a 2010 midterm election necessity. But, you're kidding yourself if you think there's going to be anything less than 50,000 - 75,000 troops in Iraq after his first two years in office.

 

[Mandark]

The military brass should have a say in the details of the drawdown, including the rate. They're in a position to figure out the logistics of getting the troops out safely. They should NOT decide whether or not to continue an occupation. That's a political decision that needs to be made by the elected, civilian leadership.

 

[electricpirate]

The military brass should have a say in the details of the drawdown, including the rate. They're in a position to figure out the logistics of getting the troops out safely. They should NOT decide whether or not to continue an occupation. That's a political decision that needs to be made by the elected, civilian leadership.

Said it better than I could have, thanks .

 

[gkryhewy]

Ah, fuck. I just reminded my cousin in suburban philadelphia that he needs to change his registration from IND to DEM by 3/24 in order to vote in the primary, only to learn afterward that he's voting for Shrillary for nebulous debate-related reasons (read: fiance related reasons).

I've just canceled out my own vote.

I did get him to DL the podcast of the obama race speech.

Anyway, fuck.

 

[syllogism]

New Rasmussen 46 O - 43 C

The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday shows John McCain’s lead growing against both potential Democratic opponents. McCain currently leads Barack Obama 49% to 42% and Hillary Clinton 51% to 41% margin (see recent daily results). African-American support for Clinton has collapsed, falling to 55% in the general election match-up.

 

[Cheebs]

New Rasmussen 46-43

46-43 is about the same (only 1% down, which is meaningless) as yesterday. 2/4 days in that tracking poll are after obama's speech.

 

[siamesedreamer]

The military brass should have a say in the details of the drawdown, including the rate. They're in a position to figure out the logistics of getting the troops out safely. They should NOT decide whether or not to continue an occupation. That's a political decision that needs to be made by the elected, civilian leadership.

And that's fine. Just as long as Obama accepts responsibility for the aftermath.

 

[gkryhewy]

New Rasmussen 46-43

Where's the 46-43?

Also, thanks for dragging this out, Hill! Working out great so far.

 

[Mandark]

Also, can someone please explain what Iran "filling the void" would actually entail?

 

[Cheebs]

Where's the 46-43?

Also, thanks for dragging this out, Hill! Working out great so far.

national. Her leads in PA have increased over the past week or so though. And she leeds 55-27 in West Virgina.

 

[syllogism]

Good thing West Virginia is a state that doesn't matter.

Rockefeller speaking on cnn stream right now, Obama very soon.

 

[gkryhewy]

national. Her leads in PA have increased over the past week or so though. And she leeds 55-27 in West Virgina.

I notice, Mr. big Obama supporter, that you say nothing about North Carolina.

 

[PhoenixDark]

lol @ Rockefeller giving Obama a Bellichick-esque handshake :lol

Maybe he had to go to the bathroom or something

 

[syllogism]

WV speech:

http://thepage.time.com/full-text-of-obamas-speech-the-cost-of-war/

 

[siamesedreamer]

Also, can someone please explain what Iran "filling the void" would actually entail?

I would kinda like to know what he meant by that too. Perhaps arming the militias?

 

[gkryhewy]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/20/11015/8963/538/480513

Mrs. Clinton’s advisers said they had spent recent days making the case to wavering superdelegates that Mr. Obama’s association with Mr. Wright would doom their party in the general election.

That argument could be Mrs. Clinton’s last hope for winning this contest.

Pathetic

 

[Tamanon]

I would assume he was implying an invasion?

 

[PhoenixDark]

(AP) — Hillary Clinton was in the White House on a half dozen days when her husband had sexual encounters with Monica Lewinsky, according to the first lady's calendars released Wednesday. A look at her schedule on days when Lewinsky said she had sexual encounters with Bill Clinton:

–Nov. 15, 1995: The first lady was in a mid-afternoon "meet & greet" photo opportunity at the White House with various Nobel Laureates and their families. That night, Lewinsky had what she later said was her first sexual encounter with the president in the private study off the Oval office.

–Nov. 17, 1995: Mrs. Clinton had no public schedule and was at the White House. That night, Lewinsky said she had a sexual encounter with the president while he was on the phone in the White House with a member of Congress.

–Dec. 31, 1995: Mrs. Clinton had no public schedule and her calendar does not show her location. That afternoon, Lewinsky said she and the president had a sexual encounter in a study in the White House.

–Jan. 7, 1996: On a Sunday afternoon, Lewinsky and the president spent most of the afternoon in the Oval Office. The first lady and the president had a small dinner with 20 people at "the Old Family Dining Room" at the White House.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

 

[electricpirate]

I think it's more in terms of a puppet government. Iraq is what, 80% shiite, and Iran is also heavily shiite. The Iraq gov. is heavily controlled by the shiites, and in many ways is already very close to Iran. when we leave theres Iran will continue to support the militias, and probably secretly assist the worst parts of Maliki's govt.

That's the void that Iran would step into. Interestingly, this would probably nearly wipe out AQI, since Shiites are the only thing that AQ hates as much as americans or isrealites.

How that could be prevented without american boots on the ground? I think engaging Iran directly and diplomatically would be a start. Also getting the other countries in the reason invested in Iraq (as per the Iraq study group) would help from letting any one country gain total control of the state. Also, a better investment into the economy and infrastructure of Iraq would help, which I think is a different investment than a military one as you stated.

That's why I support withdrawl, it won't be easy, but it can be done. Total Victory can never be achieved in iraq militarily, and to reduce it into those terms will only draw the conflict out ad infinitum. Iraq is a country of only bad options, and eventually withdrawal will be the only bad option. I'd rather take that option now than put it another 20 years in the future when military is further weakened, or enemies further emboldened and our political debt even higher.

 

[Mandark]

Tamanon: An invasion would be crazy. I don't think even McCain would suggest that possibility.

This is the problem. I keep hearing the equivalent of "If we leave, then... Iran!" Then Iran what?

Iran just doesn't have the wherewithal to impose its will on Iraq. The most they can do is materially support the factions that are friendliest to them, but those are the Shia groups who would wind up running the country anyway.

Even if they could cause a major shift in Iraq's internal power dynamic, I really doubt they'd do something that would severely upset the Sunni countries in the region. Iran's strategy right now is to thaw relations with its neighbors so it will be easier to weather whatever pressure the US puts on them.




edit:

electricpirate: Iran couldn't pull off a puppet government. There's too much nationalist sentiment in Iraq. When Sadr was building his movement, he made hay by criticizing the old religious establishment like Sistani as being foreigners (Sistani was born in Iran).

AQI is mostly located in the Sunni areas, so it's a matter of the local Sunni authorities dealing with them. Iran or no, Iraqi Shia are always going to be against AQI.

 

[Slurpy]

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/20/11015/8963/538/480513



Pathetic

The Clinton campaign is much, much more interested in keeping this in the newscycles and keeping it inflamed than the GOP. And yes, its beyond pathetic.

 

[syllogism]

Gallup didn't move much either

 

[electricpirate]

Gallup didn't move much either

About what I expected, the bleeding from Wright seems to have stopped.

 

[XxenobladerxX]

Gallup didn't move much either

That about wraps it up for Obama.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Gallup didn't move much either

But it did move, some at least. It shows he stemmed the tide. And since it's a three-day rolling, in theory it should close further tomorrow, given the press coverage. We'll see. Hopefully it's allowed him to get back to his core message, which works when he can get it through the media.

 

[RubxQub]

About what I expected, the bleeding from Wright seems to have stopped.

Bingo

 

[ezekial45]

So tomorrows poll should show more growth, correct? Since it has set in.

 

[gkryhewy]

The Clinton campaign is much, much more interested in keeping this in the newscycles and keeping it inflamed than the GOP. And yes, its beyond pathetic.

It's also beyond disingenuous, as her nomination via superdelegate fiat would hand the election to McCain by keeping african americans home in droves.

 

[schuelma]

I think the poll watching is getting a bit much.

They're going to fluctuate every day until the primary.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think the poll watching is getting a bit much.

They're going to fluctuate every day until the primary.

I think we all know that. But you can see the impact of the news cycles in them pretty clearly. I know it's all about the local races right now, but it' still interesting to see the cause and effect, how people sway with the news.

 

[schuelma]

I think we all know that. But you can see the impact of the news cycles in them pretty clearly. I know it's all about the local races right now, but it' still interesting to see the cause and effect, how people sway with the news.

Ehh..I think its more depressing than anything :lol

 

[belvedere]

I think we all know that. But you can see the impact of the news cycles in them pretty clearly. I know it's all about the local races right now, but it' still interesting to see the cause and effect, how fucking mindless sheep/total idiots sway with the news.

Fixed.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I haven't kept up too much with her plan. But, didn't she say yesterday the 60 days were for an evaluation (not the withdrawal period)?

if she did. she keeps changing her plan....