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PoliGAF Interim Thread of Tears/Lapel Pins (ScratchingHisCheek-Gate)

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StoOgE said:
Guys, been having a busy weekend and didnt have a chance to post this, but the Hillary camp was dirty at our county convention.

Once we were given the greenlight (Hill folks were fighting over some of the delegates being seated) after 4 hours of weighting, our precinct delegation met outside to elect our delegates.

We had 48 for Obama, 19 for Clinton with 5 delegates to send. Essentially we were going to send 4 delegates to state, they were sending 1. Thanks to Robers rules of order however, they decided to propose ammendment after ammendment and stalled our vote for 2 hours. I got into a screaming match over their tactics with one of them.. frothing at the mouth name calling sort of stuff., when she finally said that they would stop if we gave them two delegates.

At this point we called the Obama hotline, and got a lawyer sent to our group who went over the rules, and threatened to call a county judge over to make a ruling.

They eventually gave in before it got to that point, the vote happened and yours truly is going to the state convention! woo hoo.

Edit: Photos

IMAGE_049.jpg

This is Kirk Watson (Obama guy that didnt know anything) with our group, my cellphone camera sucks, sorry.

IMAGE_045.jpg

IMAGE_043.jpg

IMAGE_041.jpg


These are some photos of the masses. Last I heard there were about 12-15K people there. This is at our rodeo arena in the middle of nowhere.

IMAGE_021.jpg


This is me waiting in line to get in... hard to see in this pic, but I sat in traffic for about 45 minutes trying to park.

The following photos were not taken by me, thus the better quality of them.

handsup.jpg


This blue haird lady is one of the ones I yelled at.

conv13.jpg


The short lady holding the rule book having it explained is the one I really went off on.

236votesatlast.jpg


Guy in suit = obama lawyer. You can also almost see me in the back whering my Obama beenie...
You are my hero!
 
scorcho said:
the level of debt is dramatically different. it also points to how little money the Clinton campaign has to run on at the moment when compared to Obama.

There's a new story up about Hillary Clinton not paying the bills. She's not paying her staff's HEALTH CARE bills.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9274.html

Among the debts reported this month by Hillary Clinton’s struggling presidential campaign, the $292,000 in unpaid health insurance premiums for her campaign staff stands out.

Clinton, who is being pressured to end her campaign against Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination, has made her plan for universal health care a centerpiece of her agenda.
 
harSon said:
Obama's campaign has $625,000 in debt which can easily be paid off by his surplus of on-hand money. Hillary on the other hand is $8.7 million in debt, her campaign would have been several million dollars in the hole is she had not donated $5 million in the past. I think the difference in circumstances between the two are quite large. One campaign is simply behind in paid bills while the other is purposely not paying bills in an attempt to free up spending money.

It's a non issue as far as I'm concerned, and people trying to find a connection between her troubled campaign finances and the way she'll budget the country are simply fishing for anything they can grasp. Last time I checked Bill Clinton balanced the budget and left a surplus. I'm not concerned about the Clinton team getting their hands on our shitty economy
 

harSon

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
It's a non issue as far as I'm concerned, and people trying to find a connection between her troubled campaign finances and the way she'll budget the country are simply fishing for anything they can grasp. Last time I checked Bill Clinton balanced the budget and left a surplus. I'm not concerned about the Clinton team getting their hands on our shitty economy

Of course it's a non issue, anything that puts Hillary in a negative light is a non issue.
 
harSon said:
Of course it's a non issue, anything that puts Hillary in a negative light is a non issue.

It doesn't put her in a negative light. Her campaign is struggling.

Bosnia puts her in a negative light. All her petty negative attacks put her in a negative light? But this? No
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
if the reports of her campaign ignoring payment requests from a litany of small businesses are true then it's a bigger issue.

as it is, it's yet another failure to add to the list of what has to be one of the worst run campaigns in the history of American politics.
 

harSon

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
It doesn't put her in a negative light. Her campaign is struggling.

Bosnia puts her in a negative light. All her petty negative attacks put her in a negative light? But this? No

Telling supporters otherwise puts her campaign in a negative light. Not paying for something that is the centerpiece of your campaign (Health Care) puts her campaign in a negative light. Insisting that you'll fight the battle to the bitter end when your funds are running on fumes puts her campaign in a negative light. Flat out refusing to pay unpaid bills puts her campaign in a negative light.
 
PhoenixDark said:
Bosnia puts her in a negative light. All her petty negative attacks put her in a negative light? But this? No

She isn't paying for her staff's health care. She is supposed to, but hasn't paid the bills. Health care is part of the center piece of her campaign. Irony?
 

maynerd

Banned
ToyMachine228 said:
She isn't paying for her staff's health care. She is supposed to, but hasn't paid the bills. Health care is part of the center piece of her campaign. Irony?

Please tell me that this is not true. :lol
 
FLOODGATES OPENING? Freshman Sen. Amy Klobuchar (D-Minn.), a superdelegate, endorses Sen. Obama. And , as first reported by Jackie Calmes in The Wall Street Journal, North Carolina's seven Democratic House members could endorse Obama as a group ahead of the May 6 primary.
http://dyn.politico.com/playbook/

I keep seeing news along these lines but nothing happens. I'd imagine that after Penn./NC/Indiana the more prominent super delegates will make a move. I wonder if Hillary will argue their actions were undemocratic assuming they go against her.
 
harSon said:
Good job on conveniently ignoring the arguments above.

What's the point? I don't see it as a story, especially not worth connecting to how she'd run the country - the idea is ludicrous. Should I waste my time arguing it for two pages?
 

APF

Member
scorcho said:
as it is, it's yet another failure to add to the list of what has to be one of the worst run campaigns in the history of American politics.
I think this is the only valid thing to hold on to from this particular news.
 

harSon

Banned
PhoenixDark said:
What's the point? I don't see it as a story, especially not worth connecting to how she'd run the country - the idea is ludicrous. Should I waste my time arguing it for two pages?

Thats not a very good counter argument considering nobody within the last few pages (Or those participating in this debate) have made such statements. How exactly is this not bad news? About the only positive way she could spin this is to some how tie her financial struggles to the millions of Americans in a similar financial crisis.
 
harSon said:
Thats not a very good counter argument considering nobody within the last few pages (Or those participating in this debate) have made such statements. How exactly is this not bad news? About the only positive way she could spin this is to some how tie her financial struggles to the millions of Americans in a similar financial crisis.

I wouldn't even consider my post a counter argument. It's a non issue, who cares. If you honestly think this has any significance on how she'd run the country I can't help you. Most campaigns wind up in debt. The bills will be payed eventually - right now she's got more important priorities.
 
maynerd said:
Please tell me that this is not true. :lol

It is.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9274.html

Clinton didn't pay health insurance bills
By KENNETH P. VOGEL | 3/31/08 10:50 AM EST

Among the debts reported this month by Hillary Clinton’s struggling presidential campaign, the $292,000 in unpaid health insurance premiums for her campaign staff stands out.

Clinton, who is being pressured to end her campaign against Barack Obama for the Democratic nomination, has made her plan for universal health care a centerpiece of her agenda...

Campaigns resemble businesses in many ways. Like businesses, one of their biggest costs is salaries, payroll taxes and the benefits of their employees. Also like businesses, they tend to carry unpaid bills as debt from week-to-week or even month-to-month.

But Arizona Sen. John McCain, the presumptive Republican nominee, did not report any unpaid bills to insurance providers at the end of February. And the only insurance-related debt reported by Obama, an Illinois senator, was $908 to AIG American International Group for “insurance.”

I skipped parts of the article, but there's some of it. The link is above.
 

Macam

Banned
Cheebs said:
Hillary is raising a lot less than Obama but compared to all the republicans who ran and all previous primary elections her intake is far above "normal" still.

Joe? He is a republican congressman who nearly ran against the sitting dem senator for senate in FL in 06. What do you expect?

The girl who co-hosts it has a father involved in politics who endorsed Obama however.

Joe has his moments, but the Morning Joe show is generally tripe. It largely amounts to a marginally more coherent Fox & Friends. As for Mika Brzezinski, her father is Zbigniew Brzezinski, one of the more well respected people in foreign affairs & policy, so it's an endorsement with some weight.

And good riddance to quest. Hopefully he's not the last one out.
 

Cheebs

Member
Macam said:
Joe has his moments, but the Morning Joe show is generally tripe. It largely amounts to a marginally more coherent Fox & Friends. As for Mika Brzezinski, her father is Zbigniew Brzezinski, one of the more well respected people in foreign affairs & policy, so it's an endorsement with some weight.
Yeah, however Mika isn't her father and doesn't have the knowledge of politics and government that holds a candle to Joe so Joe is easily able to dominate most discussions.
 
PhoenixDark said:
It's a non issue as far as I'm concerned, and people trying to find a connection between her troubled campaign finances and the way she'll budget the country are simply fishing for anything they can grasp. Last time I checked Bill Clinton balanced the budget and left a surplus. I'm not concerned about the Clinton team getting their hands on our shitty economy

There's a very valid argument you can make connecting a poorly managed campaign with poorly managing the people directly underneath you.

Of course, most of her campaign was very well managed, but she threw her management out with the kitchen sink apparently.
 
electricpirate said:
There's a very valid argument you can make connecting a poorly managed campaign with poorly managing the people directly underneath you.

Of course, most of her campaign was very well managed, but she threw her management out with the kitchen sink apparently.

Bush ran a near flawless campaign in 2004 - sure reflecting on his presidency *rolls eyes*
 

Cheebs

Member
PhoenixDark said:
Bush ran a near flawless campaign in 2004 - sure reflecting on his presidency *rolls eyes*
You are 100% right on this.

Campaigns =/= governing.

Carter ran a brilliant campaign in 1976. He was the first to really take advantage of Iowa to gain momentum and so forth. He went door to door in Iowa while all the other candidates were stuck in the national primary mindset. Yet he was seen as a ineffective president.
 
The amateurish ploys of the Clinton campaign are, at this point, so self-destructive that they seem tragic.

We should all know that Bill Clinton is one of our most charismatic Americans. I found this out the first time I met him at a White House party for Lionel Hampton. Someone came into the room unannounced, his back was to me and I didn't know who he was until he turned around, but I couldn't stop staring at him. I knew then that I had encountered a rare brand of charisma.

I had a similar experience when I first heard Hillary Clinton speak as a surprise guest at the Ziegfeld Theatre in Manhattan. Everyone who spoke that night seemed obviously amplified by the microphone except the woman in the dark pantsuit.

When I spoke briefly with her at a library on a college campus, I noticed that she had a good grip on that distant but intimate quality politicians share with movie stars. The feeling that you should not get too close; this person is both above you and an inarguable intimate.

Those qualities do not communicate well through television for some reason. On TV, Clinton seems by turns icy, contrived, hysterical, sentimental, bitter, manipulative and self-righteous. In short, dehumanized by the mysterious dictates of technology, she takes on qualities that most people hate.


Perhaps because of the way camera lights hit the planes of her face and the tinny distortions of her voice imposed by television microphones, something apparently evil happens. Part of Richard Nixon's comeback strategy was to overcome what was done to him by the defining force of TV when he was bilked of the presidency in 1960 then humiliated by losing a run for governor of California in 1962.

Hillary Clinton has never been able to figure that one out.

In the narrows of the idiot box, she seems to have fused in her very being the traits of self-pity and a sense of entitlement. The strategy is as common on the right as the left and, when not planned out, is usually called into play at moments of extraordinary panic.

That is the only explanation for the easily refuted lie Clinton told about traveling with her daughter into the Wild West dangers of Bosnia. Spooked by Obama's speech in Philadelphia, she and Bill must have decided that she had to bring the attention back to her by topping the Illinois senator in some way.


Obviously, the only trouble was that there were reporters and cameras with her in Bosnia, and the pilot who flew the plane carrying Hillary and Chelsea Clinton refuted her on every point! Then, wealthy campaign contributors took off the gloves and tried to bare-knuckle Nancy Pelosi, who was merely saying to the superdelegates that the nomination should go to the one with the most votes.

No way! said the Clinton people. They should vote for the person who has the best chance of beating John McCain.

For all of the sound and the fury, I do not think that the Clintons will destroy the Democratic Party. And they will not ensure the victory of McCain. But I think that they have destroyed any possibility for themselves of returning to the White House.


The press now has another grudge against them, their supporters have to be shocked by this level of lying, and the rest of America sees pathos in their continuing desperation.
Then, of course, her documented lie about Bosnia is just what the Republicans would need to perforate any belief in her ability to tell the truth.

In the Western World, where the details of human frailty in the highest places are revealed most clearly, we are witnessing the loud destruction of two liberal idols. Neither the charisma nor the sophistication of Bill and Hillary Clinton has moved to the rescue in this moment of grand but muddy pathos.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/clinton_antics_will_make_bill.html
 

Tamanon

Banned
I think the key bit about the Clinton finances is that of all this money she raised in February, only half of it was for the primary election. While the number was released as a whole, a good amount of it was general election donation only, which is basically useless at this stage of the game. The only use there is to fluff up the numbers.
 

cjdunn

Member
Previously...
cjdunn said:
I swear that little girl from Tuzla, who's probably in her late 20's now, is next.
Five days later...

Huff Post
The Bosnian girl who famously read a poem to Hillary Rodham Clinton during her 1996 visit to the war-torn country is shocked - and her countrymen infuriated - that the former first lady claimed to have dodged sniper fire that day.

Emina Bicakcic, now 20 and studying to become a doctor, told The Post she stood on the tarmac at the air base in Tuzla, greeted Clinton and even had time to share the lines of verse she'd written - all without fear of attack from an unseen enemy.
Man. I. Am. Awesome. :D
Except my guess of her age.
 

Macam

Banned
Cheebs said:
Yeah, however Mika isn't her father and doesn't have the knowledge of politics and government that holds a candle to Joe so Joe is easily able to dominate most discussions.

I was only clarifying her father's position as being somewhat more significant than just a politician, not vouching for her knowledge or the show (which is terrible).
 
Great article on Obama and McCain's once promising relationship in the senate, which turned sour

A year into his tenure on Capitol Hill, Barack Obama (D-Ill.) approached John McCain on the Senate floor to propose the two work together on a lobbying and ethics reform bill. The four-term Arizona Republican, 25 years Obama's senior, quickly saw a willing apprentice to help shake up the way business was done on Capitol Hill.

"I like him; he's probably got a great future. We can do some work together," McCain confided to his top staffer.

Instead, what began as a promising collaboration between two men bent on burnishing their reformist credentials collapsed after barely a week. The McCain-Obama relationship came undone amid charges and countercharges, all aired publicly two years ago in an exchange of stark and angry letters. Obama questioned whether McCain sided with GOP leaders rather than searching for a bipartisan solution; McCain accused Obama of "typical rhetorical gloss" and "self interested partisan posturing" by a newcomer seeking to ingratiate himself with party leaders.


"Please be assured I won't make the same mistake again," McCain wrote Obama on Feb. 6, 2006.

It was the first, and only, time the two ever tried extensively working together.

More than two years later, with McCain and Obama potentially poised to go head to head in a presidential campaign with stakes far greater than regulating who picks up steakhouse tabs, the reform fight has emerged as a looking-glass moment of what a fall campaign could resemble.

McCain's backers view it as emblematic of Obama's ability to talk grand ideas and aspirations but his ultimate failure to produce substantive results. The Illinois senator's supporters contend that the moment was vintage Obama, with the newcomer defusing the feud with a cool demeanor that allowed him to claim the high ground while rolling up his sleeves to eventually help pass a broader ethics overhaul bill in August 2007.

"There was a little bit of grandstanding there [by Obama] that made it difficult to get a bipartisan effort," said former senator Trent Lott (R-Miss.), a McCain backer deeply involved in the failed push for ethics and lobbying reform in 2006. "This idea that, as president, he's going to be able to reach across the aisle -- there's very thin gruel that would indicate that."

"Senator Obama has every right to tout his role in that legislation," said Sen. Russell Feingold (D-Wis.), an Obama supporter who has often worked with McCain on reform issues. "He wasn't showboating. He was trying to get things done."


Officially, both presidential campaigns downplay the significance of the encounter, saying that the two enjoy a cordial relationship and attributing the fact that they have not since found occasion to work together to time constraints and assignments on different committees. But their first tentative campaign jousting this year suggests that both men walked away from that initial encounter with doubts about the other's sincerity, in contrast with the working relationship built up over this decade between McCain and Obama's remaining Democratic rival, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (N.Y.).

On the stump Obama mocks McCain's maverick image, saying McCain "fell in line" with Republican orthodoxy on tax cuts after initially opposing the $1.3 trillion tax-cut plan in 2001. He tweaks McCain for surrounding himself with lobbyists as advisers, arguing that presidential ambition has trumped his reformer convictions.

"Somewhere along the line, the Straight Talk Express lost some wheels," Obama said in January during a Democratic debate.


And McCain's camp has relentlessly questioned what the 46-year-old has done that has prepared him for the presidency.

"He really doesn't have any accomplishments. It's not a slight against Obama; he's only been in the Senate for a few years, and most of that time he was running for president," Mark Salter, McCain's former chief of staff and now senior campaign adviser, said in an interview.

In January 2006, McCain and Obama looked like natural allies. Jack Abramoff, the Republican lobbyist whose actions had been exposed largely by the work of a committee headed by McCain, had recently pleaded guilty to bribing members of Congress.

Senate Republicans turned to McCain, whose credentials on the topic were solidified after his campaign finance bill became law in 2002, to help craft their ethics legislation. Democratic leaders turned to the freshest face they could find, making Obama their point man in a chamber he had served in for 12 months.


Obama had worked to cultivate a reformist image, leading an expansive overhaul of ethics rules in the Illinois state senate. His well-received speech at the 2004 Democratic convention made him a big draw on the campaign trail, and he hopscotched around the nation on nearly two dozen flights on corporate jets campaigning for fellow Democrats, paying only the cost of a first-class ticket for each trip. Recognizing the downside of allowing corporations to do favors that could boost his political standing, he unilaterally ended the practice in late 2005 -- about the same time McCain, another frequent flier on corporate jets, imposed a similar ban before new Senate rules barred the practice.

When Obama approached McCain to talk about working together, the veteran recalled his first days in the House in 1983 when Rep. Morris Udall (D-Ariz.) took McCain under his wing, according to Salter. "He never forgot that."

McCain personally invited Obama to attend a February 2006 bipartisan meeting of senators. Democrats say the meeting went well and there were no signs of animosity, but some Republicans contend that Obama delivered what amounted to a high-handed speech about the culture of corruption without wanting to delve into legislative detail.

Obama was "talking more than was justified," said Lott, who was chairman of the Rules and Administration Committee at the time. "Maybe there was a little bit of pettiness on the other side."

Obama would later recall later that McCain thanked him "several times" for attending and pledged to work with the freshman.

The Arizonan, however, lost faith in Obama the next day.


Obama dashed off a letter -- promptly released to the media -- that suggested McCain, who was already considering a presidential run, had "expressed an interest" in creating a task force to study the issue. But, Obama wrote, "the more effective and more timely" route was to move a bill quickly through Senate committees.

McCain struck back at what he saw as the newcomer questioning his bona fides on reform issues. He derided Obama as a stalking horse for Sen. Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.), the party leader who had vowed to make GOP corruption issues the central plank of the 2006 midterm elections.

"He's sending you a press release/letter for his leader," Salter recalled telling McCain. "He did something that you just don't do."


Days later McCain, an avid baseball fan, told Salter to draft in response the equivalent of a pitcher throwing at the batter's head to rattle him. "He told me to brush him back. . . . You don't do things like that," Salter said.


Salter admitted his stinging letter "probably put too much English on it." The missive was quickly released to the media.

"I would like to apologize to you for assuming that your private assurances to me . . . were sincere," McCain's letter began.


Within hours Obama fired back his own message, calling McCain's statements "regrettable" because "you have now questioned my sincerity."

Obama backers said his handling of the issue showed that, despite being largely untested on the national stage, he was not afraid to throw a political counterpunch, even at a veteran such as McCain, and that he was able to do so without reverting to the kind of angry response McCain used. "Let me assure you that I am not interested in typical partisan rhetoric or posturing," Obama wrote McCain.

Serendipitously, the two men appeared two days later next to each other to testify about reform proposals before Lott's committee, during which Obama sought to defuse the spat. He began his testimony by thanking "my new pen pal, John McCain" for his efforts on the ethics legislation. The committee room erupted in laughter.

In the end, Obama and McCain ended up on the outside looking in as Lott and leaders from both parties crafted a softened ethics package. It passed the Senate on a 90 to 8 vote on March 29, 2006. Obama and McCain -- who wanted tougher legislation banning corporate flights and requiring the disclosure of lobbyists bundling donations from their clients, among other items -- were among the eight "nay" votes.

"Everybody was posing for holy pictures. It was a lousy piece of legislation," Feingold said, praising Obama for voting no even though his entire leadership supported it.

The bill died as the House and Senate deadlocked over their differing versions. Soon after the 2006 elections removed Republicans from power, Reid, now majority leader, brought Feingold and Obama back into the reform effort. By mid-January 2007, on a 96 to 2 vote, the Senate had approved a tougher ethics bill that included a total ban on gifts and meals, outlawed cheap rides on corporate jets and provided more lobbyist disclosure -- almost every provision Obama and McCain had pushed for a year earlier. Both the House and Senate approved the final bill last summer.

In his floor speech Aug. 2, Obama noted that he and Feingold worked to make a tougher bill than the 2006 version, and offered only faint praise to McCain. "Last year, I and Senator Feingold and Senator McCain, voted against it because we thought we could do better. So in January, I came back with Senator Feingold and we set a high bar for reform. And I'm pleased to report that the bill before us today comes very close to what we proposed."

McCain opposed the final bill, saying it did not go far enough to prevent special-interest earmarked spending provisions in legislation.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23873610/

A telling exchange, although conclusions based on this would most likely be split amongst ideology lines.
 

Tamanon

Banned
Especially telling, because in the end, when the bill was what McCain claimed he wanted the whole time, he still voted against it.:p
 

Tamanon

Banned
Another Super switching from Hillary to Obama!

During a recent interview with MTV at his Connecticut mansion, 50 Cent told reporters that he has switched from supporting Hillary Clinton for president to backing Barack Obama after hearing his speech on race.

"I heard Obama speak," said the rapper. "He hit me with that he-just-got-done-watching-'Malcolm X,' and I swear to God, I'm like, 'Yo, Obama!' "He threw his fist in the air. "I'm Obama to the end now, baby!"

But hold on, 50 also admitted that he's become bored with the overall race for the White House.

"To be honest, I haven't been following that anymore. I lost my interest," he said.
 

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Systems_id said:
50 Cent's a superdelegates? Really? That can't be right.

Don't feel bad, the thought had crossed my mind, but when I say "Crossed" it did leave
 
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