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[Deus Ex Machina]

Barack Obama at Penn State University

Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1-v_07I7Ik

Wow! What a rally.

 

[Atrus]

I wouldn't even consider my post a counter argument. It's a non issue, who cares. If you honestly think this has any significance on how she'd run the country I can't help you. Most campaigns wind up in debt. The bills will be payed eventually - right now she's got more important priorities.

Your line of apologetics is flawed. Why should the inability to manage finances be excused? There may not be a direct correlation between todays actions and tomorrows, but the focus of the charge is laid against her current mismanagement.

Why should someone running for a leadership position be given leeway for running an incompetent campaign? Regardless of whether or not it is indicative of a possible administration.

A relative nobody, is kicking her ass. That either speaks extremely well of him, extremely poorly of her, or a point in between those two. There's no two ways about it for the Clinton 'fans'.

 

[mashoutposse]

Obama's campaign also has debt. Non-story.

Bu-bu-bu OBAMA!

 

[PhoenixDark]

Your line of apologetics is flawed. Why should the inability to manage finances be excused? There may not be a direct correlation between todays actions and tomorrows, but the focus of the charge is laid against her current mismanagement.

Why should someone running for a leadership position be given leeway for running an incompetent campaign? Regardless of whether or not it is indicative of a possible administration.

A relative nobody, is kicking her ass. That either speaks extremely well of him, extremely poorly of her, or a point in between those two. There's no two ways about it for the Clinton 'fans'.

Presidential campaigns often run into high debt. Most accounts suggest her campaign is currently using all their resources to win the presidency; once her campaign is up her bills will be payed, just like the majority of candidates.

Running a bad presidential campaign is not a definitive sign of how one will run the presidency. The inverse is also correct, and as I said if it was not correct, Bush would have had a pretty awesome second term. This is a very weak point of criticism for Obama supporters.

Obama "kicking her ass" doesn't speak poorly of her. Hillary has had the unexpected luck of running against a political rock star who's lack of substance and weaknesses were conveniently ignored by the media for months. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd disagree that Hillary's campaign was nigh flawless through 2007 - once voting started her campaign began to suffer, especially as her "inevitability" wore off.

The last time this happen was in 92, but I'd argue Hillary has run a better campaign than Bush, with less public fuck ups

 

[scorcho]

Bu-bu-bu OBAMA!

i'm assuming by this you don't understand the context and know little, if anything, on the subject.

Running a bad presidential campaign is not a definitive sign of how one will run the presidency. The inverse is also correct, and as I said if it was not correct, Bush would have had a pretty awesome second term. This is a very weak point of criticism for Obama supporters.

but running a horrible, flat out horrible campaign that placed loyalty above results for so long (hi Patti Solis Doyle and Mark Penn) doesn't exactly give me hope that she'll move us away from one of the more damning traits of our current administration.

 

[harSon]

Presidential campaigns often run into high debt. Most accounts suggest her campaign is currently using all their resources to win the presidency; once her campaign is up her bills will be payed, just like the majority of candidates.

Running a bad presidential campaign is not a definitive sign of how one will run the presidency. The inverse is also correct, and as I said if it was not correct, Bush would have had a pretty awesome second term. This is a very weak point of criticism for Obama supporters.

Obama "kicking her ass" doesn't speak poorly of her. Hillary has had the unexpected luck of running against a political rock star who's lack of substance and weaknesses were conveniently ignored by the media for months. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd disagree that Hillary's campaign was nigh flawless through 2007 - once voting started her campaign began to suffer, especially as her "inevitability" wore off.

The last time this happen was in 92, but I'd argue Hillary has run a better campaign than Bush, with less public fuck ups

Have you finally given up on with your supposed Obama "support"?

 

[Atrus]

Presidential campaigns often run into high debt. Most accounts suggest her campaign is currently using all their resources to win the presidency; once her campaign is up her bills will be payed, just like the majority of candidates.

Running a bad presidential campaign is not a definitive sign of how one will run the presidency. The inverse is also correct, and as I said if it was not correct, Bush would have had a pretty awesome second term. This is a very weak point of criticism for Obama supporters.

Obama "kicking her ass" doesn't speak poorly of her. Hillary has had the unexpected luck of running against a political rock star who's lack of substance and weaknesses were conveniently ignored by the media for months. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd disagree that Hillary's campaign was nigh flawless through 2007 - once voting started her campaign began to suffer, especially as her "inevitability" wore off.

The last time this happen was in 92, but I'd argue Hillary has run a better campaign than Bush, with less public fuck ups

Excuses. She had the political clout, the name recognition, and the overwhelming odds of winning this nomination. She is only losing because of her laziness and incompetence that failed to take competitors seriously enough.

These pitiful excuses are nothing but the rationalizations of losers who will over the coming months try to rationalize why their weak candidate lost the nomination. It conveniently tries to charge Obama with a lack of substance and weakness while ignoring the self-same thing charged against Clinton, and of course is made by the same people whinging about media bias now when its not in her favour as opposed to late last fall for the other candidates.

As I've said before, running a bad presidential campaign may not indicate the quality of their executive performace but that has absolutely nothing to do with their current responsibility for such a pitiful showing given her strategic advantages.

 

[PhoenixDark]

but running a horrible, flat out horrible campaign that placed loyalty above results for so long (hi Patti Solis Doyle and Mark Penn) doesn't exactly give me hope that she'll move us away from one of the more damning traits of our current administration.

That's the Clintons, what do you expect; it's worked for decades. Hillary's campaign has fallen to pieces mainly because they didn't have a "back up" plan. Outside of that idiotic come back kid nonsense in NH, Hillary never adapted to running behind. Instead she went for negative campaigning and victim sympathy the minute her luck turned, which was stupid. I've been shocked at the level they've been willing to go to, despite constant reminders that it isn't working. In the end I do believe it has made Obama a stronger candidate, but the consequence is that it essentially killed the Clinton name. There importance in politics is over. I'm reminded of Matt Damon's chastisement of Jack Nicholson in The Departed: "all that fucking, and no sons."

Have you finally given up on with your supposed Obama "support"?

I have nothing against Obama, and I'll be voting for the democratic nominee in November

 

[KRS7]

once voting started her campaign began to suffer

I know, she had a great political campaign until the voting started. Those damn voters, her campaign would be so much better without them. Good thing she has those super delegates to overrule the elected ones, we don't want to let voters get in the way of her presidency.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Excuses. She had the political clout, the name recognition, and the overwhelming odds of winning this nomination. She is only losing because of her laziness and incompetence that failed to take competitors seriously enough.

These pitiful excuses are nothing but the rationalizations of losers who will over the coming months try to rationalize why their weak candidate lost the nomination. It conveniently tries to charge Obama with a lack of substance and weakness while ignoring the self-same thing charged against Clinton, and of course is made by the same people whinging about media bias now when its not in her favour as opposed to late last fall for the other candidates.

As I've said before, running a bad presidential campaign may not indicate the quality of their executive performace but that has absolutely nothing to do with their current responsibility for such a pitiful showing given her strategic advantages.

Those aren't excuses, it's the reality of the situation. Clinton spent decades planning for the presidency and honing her political skills, only to run into an opponent that seemingly transcends politics and benefited from a media infatuation. But I agree in this sense: anytime a favorite of the magnitude that Clinton was fails, it's a big failure.

 

[Cheebs]

All I know is that the fall of the Clintons will be a subject of many books for decades to come.

Am I the only one who can't wait for Clinton insiders to publish books about the fall of the Clintons from the inside which is bound to happen after this is all over?

Like Bob Shrums book where he discussed Kerry's failed campaign with juicy details about how much of a weirdo John Edwards was and how James Carville tipped off to the Bush campaign accidentally that Kerry would not ask for a revote in Ohio.

 

[Tamanon]

All I know is that the fall of the Clintons will be a subject of many books for decades to come.

Am I the only one who can't wait for Clinton insiders to publish books about what the fall of the Clintons from the inside which is bound to happen after this is all over?

I thought that's what Dick Morris was setting up for this whole time.

 

[Cheebs]

I thought that's what Dick Morris was setting up for this whole time.

Dick Morris is obviously going to write about this but he'll be far from the only one. The "fall of the clinton empire" is something very cinematic in the world of politics, everyone and their dog will want to publish their take on it.

Which reminds me of a point in the so called media bias to Obama. NYT said a month ago it wasn't that the press somehow favors Obama, its just that the story of the fall of the champion being beaten by a rookie just makes for a far more appealing narrative. It's the same logic in their push for McCain, the McCain comeback made a far more appealing story than the overly complex Romney and traditional Rudy campaigns.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Dick Morris is obviously going to write about this but he'll be far from the only one. The "fall of the clinton empire" is something very cinematic in the world of politics, everyone and their dog will want to publish their take on it.

Which reminds me of a point in the so called media bias to Obama. NYT said a month ago it wasn't that the press somehow favors Obama, its just that the story of the fall of the champion being beaten by a rookie just makes for a far more appealing narrative.

Eh, as Matthews said I'm tired of the Clinton soap opera. While the books will be interesting, I'm more interested in hearing about how Hillary is accepted back into the senate later this year lol. People seem to think she'll get the majority leader job with no effort, which seems unlikely to me.

 

[KRS7]

All I know is that the fall of the Clintons will be a subject of many books for decades to come.

Am I the only one who can't wait for Clinton insiders to publish books about what the fall of the Clintons from the inside which is bound to happen after this is all over?

I am with you there, that would be a great book. The little snippets of political infighting that have already leaked were intriguing. Including that fight over whether the ad or the message was the problem. The book should fill in a lot of what was happening inside the sinking campaign.

 

[Atrus]

Those aren't excuses, it's the reality of the situation. Clinton spent decades planning for the presidency and honing her political skills, only to run into an opponent that seemingly transcends politics and benefited from a media infatuation. But I agree in this sense: anytime a favorite of the magnitude that Clinton was fails, it's a big failure.

It is an excuse and a poor one at that. If she were fit to lead, she would be winning. That she is not is a direct consequence of her inability.

Placing the blame on other things is to apoligize for her by putting the culpability of her campaign on anything but her campaign. If Obama didn't win this nomination, he would be held responsible for not overcoming the Wright fiasco say, or whatever it was that would make him lose.

If this is the best she can do then she should call it quits now. Her maximum effort is a poor showing, assuming that she's trying to put everything shes got in order to win the nomination.

 

[Incognito]

Those aren't excuses, it's the reality of the situation. Clinton spent decades planning for the presidency and honing her political skills, only to run into an opponent that seemingly transcends politics and benefited from a media infatuation. But I agree in this sense: anytime a favorite of the magnitude that Clinton was fails, it's a big failure.

Media infatuation? I seem to remember during the summer/early fall of 2007 nothing but "Mrs. Inevitable" and how Obama didn't have the chops to run at this high level and should either go negative or pack his bags for 2012. But I don't know, maybe I was living in an alternate dimension? And does this media infatuation extend to the NYTimes, where by their own count, they've published more front page stories critical of Obama than Clinton?

Man, it's pretty amazing what SNL skit on the supposed coddling of Obama by the media has done to people -- grown some skin and get a grip on reality.

 

[Cheebs]

Eh, as Matthews said I'm tired of the Clinton soap opera. While the books will be interesting, I'm more interested in hearing about how Hillary is accepted back into the senate later this year lol. People seem to think she'll get the majority leader job with no effort, which seems unlikely to me.

Here is a image to think about. When both Obama and Clinton had to come back to the senate to vote for something a few weeks back Clinton was treated like a every-day senator. Obama stayed in his office with about a dozen senators who support him. When it came time to vote they all came out surrounding Obama in a circle, voted as a unit. And all went back into Obama's office. Apparently it was a very powerful image to watch.

 

[Keylime]

Here is a image to think about. When both Obama and Clinton had to come back to the senate to vote for something a few weeks back Clinton was treated like a every-day senator. Obama stayed in his office with about a dozen senators who support him. When it came time to vote they all came out surrounding Obama in a circle, voted as a unit. And all went back into Obama's office. Apparently it was a very powerful image to watch.

Sounds pretty badass.

Any chance this was on CSPAN or something that it could be youtubed?

 

[Tamanon]

Sounds pretty badass.

Any chance this was on CSPAN or something that it could be youtubed?

It was when the GOP made that silly amendment throwing all of Obama's proposals together into the budget.

 

[Cheebs]

Sounds pretty badass.

Any chance this was on CSPAN or something that it could be youtubed?

If it's online I havent got a clue where it was. I read about it at one of the liberal blogs from someone who watched it live on cspan.

It was when the GOP made that silly amendment throwing all of Obama's proposals together into the budget.

Yep.

 

[KRS7]

If Obama becomes president there would be no blacks in the senate again? Are there any running this year? I would hate it if the Senate was 100% white again.

 

[PhoenixDark]

It is an excuse and a poor one at that. If she were fit to lead, she would be winning. That she is not is a direct consequence of her inability.

Placing the blame on other things is to apoligize for her by putting the culpability of her campaign on anything but her campaign. If Obama didn't win this nomination, he would be held responsible for not overcoming the Wright fiasco say, or whatever it was that would make him lose.

If this is the best she can do then she should call it quits now. Her maximum effort is a poor showing, assuming that she's trying to put everything shes got in order to win the nomination.

Is this slippery slope day, or April Fools day? I'm confused

Incognito: You're right, 2007 was Hillary's year. 2008 has been Obama's in spades. He has received very little criticism, and I always argued that would hurt him in October. Instead it hurt him last month when he finally faced adversity.

 

[Tamanon]

Is this slippery slope day, or April Fools day? I'm confused

Incognito: You're right, 2007 was Hillary's year. 2008 has been Obama's in spades. He has received very little criticism, and I always argued that would hurt him in October. Instead it hurt him last month when he finally faced adversity.

What happened last month?

 

[KRS7]

What happened last month?

Obama won 11 contest in a row.

 

[Incognito]

What happened last month?

Poor ol PD hit with the wall of facts again. Obama won both February and March.

 

[PhoenixDark]

Poor ol PD hit with the wall of facts again. Obama won both February and March.

I was referring to the Wright controversy, which began steaming last month

btw if you guys haven't seen the Shrum stuff on Edwards
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1626498-1,00.html

 

[Dahellisdat]

Is this slippery slope day, or April Fools day? I'm confused

Incognito: You're right, 2007 was Hillary's year. 2008 has been Obama's in spades. He has received very little criticism, and I always argued that would hurt him in October. Instead it hurt him last month when he finally faced adversity.

I would say he's more than shown his ability to conquer adversity. And on the contrary, it seems to me that he's had to deal with an entire boatload of criticism from the clinton campaign itself.

 

[GhaleonEB]

The state now has 4,119,213 registered Democrats. Since March 24, the last day of eligibility for the primary election, the state has received 33,281 new Democratic registrations and 45,977 party changes to the Democratic Party. The secretary of state’s office is still accepting new registrations and party switches that were postmarked by the deadline.

State officials said the activity on the final day was intense, and these new numbers likely include large swaths of registrations that were collected by both the Obama and Clinton campaigns and submitted just before the deadline.

Since the first of the year, the state has received 101,499 new Democratic applications and 132,688 switches to the Democratic Party.

By contrast, the Republican Party in Pennsylvania now stands at 3,197,586 people. Only 32,191 citizens have joined the Republican roles and 13,937 have switched to the GOP since January 1.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/

 

[mashoutposse]

i'm assuming by this you don't understand the context and know little, if anything, on the subject.

Funny, your response merits that exact response in return :lol

I guess when it is mentioned that Hillary's campaign carries nearly $300,000 in debt to insurance companies, you'll point out the $1000 owed by the Obama campaign and shout, "He does it, too!"

Yes, the bills will almost assuredly get paid. It's friendly ribbing since APF and friends frequently used that exact same comment just a few days ago against Obama fans who pointed out Clinton's flaws during one of the many squabbles in these threads.

 

[Particle Physicist]

..

 

[mckmas8808]

Is this slippery slope day, or April Fools day? I'm confused

Incognito: You're right, 2007 was Hillary's year. 2008 has been Obama's in spades. He has received very little criticism, and I always argued that would hurt him in October. Instead it hurt him last month when he finally faced adversity.

But you do realize that at least Obama worked hard for his 2008 media love. Had it not won states, that love wouldn't have been there.

Hillary got her media love for free in 2007.

 

[scorcho]

Funny, your response merits that exact response in return :lol

I guess when it is mentioned that Hillary's campaign carries nearly $300,000 in debt to insurance companies, you'll point out the $1000 owed by the Obama campaign and shout, "He does it, too!"

Yes, the bills will almost assuredly get paid. It's friendly ribbing since APF and friends frequently used that exact same comment just a few days ago against Obama fans who pointed out Clinton's flaws during one of the many squabbles in these threads.

actually, i clarified what i think this signifies, which APF agreed with in a later post.

but claiming that Obama's debts nullifies the significance of Clinton's debts clearly misses the boat. first, the money difference between between the two are quite sizable, how its impacting (or not impacting) each campaign is important, and in Clinton's case its just another example of how badly her campaign has been run.

thanks for trying though.

 

[mashoutposse]

actually, i clarified what i think this signifies, which APF agreed with in a later post.

I agreed with you.

but claiming that Obama's debts nullifies the significance of Clinton's debts clearly misses the boat.

I did no such thing.

first, the money difference between between the two are quite sizable, how its impacting (or not impacting) each campaign is important, and in Clinton's case its just another example of how badly her campaign has been run.

I agreed with you here, too!

thanks for trying though.

I agreed with you every step of the way :lol You might have missed the context under which I made my original comment

 

[Odrion]

If Obama becomes president there would be no blacks in the senate again? Are there any running this year? I would hate it if the Senate was 100% white again.

Why does this matter?

 

[Tamanon]

I agreed with you.



I did no such thing.



I agreed with you here, too!



I agreed with you every step of the way :lol You might have missed the context under which I made my original comment

I was going to step in and point out you guys were in agreement the whole time, but it was better to watch ya'll figure it out.

 

[scorcho]

fuck y'all i'm at work i has no time to be reading all these facts.

 

[mashoutposse]

I was going to step in and point out you guys were in agreement the whole time, but it was better to watch ya'll figure it out.

:lol My bad (no sarcasm), I will be clearer next time

 

[Thunder Monkey]

I was going to step in and point out you guys were in agreement the whole time, but it was better to watch ya'll figure it out.

Just a tragedy that it took as long as it did... or didn't take longer.

 

[mashoutposse]

hey i kinda-sorta knew, i just didn't want to be that guy who extends the olive branch and the other guy slaps it away

so i had to be sure.

ok, back to campaign management and media favoritism

 

[Tamanon]

:lol at this commentator on MSNBC :"I was more impressed that he had a size 13 1/2 bowling shoe!"

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

:lol at this commentator on MSNBC :"I was more impressed that he had a size 13 1/2 bowling shoe!"

I'll be waiting for the leaked porno video.

 

[soul creator]

:lol at this commentator on MSNBC :"I was more impressed that he had a size 13 1/2 bowling shoe!"

hey, you know what they say about guys with big feet

Spoiler

they were some big ass socks

 

[Incognito]

Cool graph that confirms the oft-floated theory regarding Obama and his reception in states with a relatively mixed AA and Caucasian population.

I think the graph speaks for itself.

 

[Amir0x]

*rubs eyes*

any interesting news today

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

Cool graph that confirms the oft-floated theory regarding Obama and his reception in states with a relatively mixed AA and Caucasian population.

I think the graph speaks for itself.

Where's California and Texas?

 

[electricpirate]

*rubs eyes*

any interesting news today

Super Del pickup for Obama, and it looks like another 6 from NC are incoming.

Obama hates babies.

 

[Incognito]

Where's California and Texas?

To date, 42 states and the District of Columbia have voted in primaries or caucuses. Factor out the two senators’ home states (Illinois, New York and Arkansas), the two states where Edwards was a major factor (New Hampshire and Iowa) and the one state where only Clinton was on the ballot (Michigan) and you are left with 37 elections where the head-to-head Clinton-Obama matchup has been most clear. Subtract the Latino factor (a hugely important but wholly separate influence on the election) by removing the four states whose Hispanic population is over 25 percent (California, New Mexico, Texas and Arizona), and you are left with 33 elections that best represent how the black-white split has impacted the campaign.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/article/3597/the_clinton_firewall/

 

[Mandark]

It's like a demographic version of the uncanny valley!

There was a graph of Obama's percent of the white vote compared with the percent of Southern Baptists in a state. Not surprisingly there was a pretty direct negative correlation.

 

[Tamanon]

Ah, Governor Ed Rendell already calling for Michigan and Florida to count. And advancing the electoral math argument.