• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Z

Zonar

Member
Hi Gaffers!

I need to tell someone that we were in the middle east under false pretenses. but i need some facts to back my self up. Can you all send me some links about proven facts that this administration lied to the American people with held information, and exzadreated the information we did have. Also she says we were their to bring peace to the middle east. Can someone give me a list of other places where much more wrong was being done such as the massacres in South Africa.

thanks
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Zonar said:
Hi Gaffers!

I need to tell someone that we were in the middle east under false pretenses. but i need some facts to back my self up. Can you all send me some links about proven facts that this administration lied to the American people with held information, and exzadreated the information we did have. Also she says we were their to bring peace to the middle east. Can someone give me a list of other places where much more wrong was being done such as the massacres in South Africa.

thanks
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_(informant)

That's a good place to start. The NIE's most damning points were based on this informant's testimony when he was a con-man and a liar.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Tamanon said:
You do realize what he's talking about right? McCain has been pretty guilty of it, speaking as though he represents what folks currently in the military want. I remember an interview where he was challenged on the numbers of soldiers who feel that they aren't making progress in Iraq and should not be there, it was something like 60%. McCain said that was wrong and soldiers believe they are doing right and should stay there until the job is done.
Click to expand...

Incognito said:
Tom Cody's point would be relevant only if Jim Webb personally campaigned for John Kerry. As it stands, Webb and Kerry are known to have some frosty feelings towards each other and Webb wasn't even in elected office in 2004.
Click to expand...

I just watched the video of the interview (I was unable to find a transcript at the time I posted).

I admittedly had misinterpreted Webb's intentions since I had only read your comments. I thought he was criticizing McCain for politicizing his own service (thus the Kerry picture).

I admit I was wrong originally, but I would like to counter his actual statements (now that I know them). Every single time I've heard him discuss his own bill I've heard him claim that he is doing everything in his power to avoid politicizing it, while in the same breath criticizing his opponents (specifically name dropping McCain and Bush) as being uncaring of our troops. In every interview I've seen. He even did that in this interview. Obviously no one is opposing the bill because of lack of concern for the troops. The issue is concern that it will cause soldiers to serve shorter terms, thus lowering our troop numbers at a time when they are critically low as it is. It is always an easy PR to vote for a bill in support of our troops, but he has avoided discussing the real reason that some oppose it, instead criticizing those opponents for not caring about our troops. I personally side with him on the issue, but I think his opponents have a valid point of view that he has continually ignored.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Yes, but, the same study that said that there might be less re-enlistment also said that there would be as much, or more new recruitment increases. So the argument that soldiers might not stay in because the benefits will be too good doesn't hold water.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
BTW, I've been on a bit of a Bill Moyers kick about the war and am listening to a report he did from Apr 07 called Buying the War, basically laying out the timetable for what happened, who influenced what, what the press did and the skepticism of certain press programs. Fascinating and infuriating stuff, especially listening to some of the rhetoric in the run-up.

Got it off iTunes for free.

And I didn't realize that Knight-Ridder had done so much extensive reporting on the skepticism of different facts and stuff DURING the run-up to war. They just didn't get much play anywhere.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Tamanon said:
Yes, but, the same study that said that there might be less re-enlistment also said that there would be as much, or more new recruitment increases. So the argument that soldiers might not stay in because the benefits will be too good doesn't hold water.
Click to expand...

According to that specific study. One study's results are not tantamount to fact.

Are you also in the camp that thinks McCain opposed the bill because he doesn't care about the troops? :lol

Again, I personally support the Webb bill. We need to come up with better ways to keep our soldiers in the military. I also feel that the issue of our troop levels is extremely important though and it can't be ignored.
 
S

siamesedreamer

Banned
bob_arctor said:
Who exactly are you voting for?
Click to expand...

Once again, this guy. I just have to figure out how they do write-in/absentee ballots. If, for whatever reason, I cannot write him in then I'm leaving POTUS blank.


bob_arctor said:
I strongly suspect however that your main beefs are his economic views followed closely by his universal healthcare plans, both of which are probably at odds with your political DNA.
Click to expand...

Its about 70% economic, 25% the DEMs getting full control (with possible fillibuster-proof margins), and 5% his supporters. Healthcare doesn't really play a role as I doubt he'll able to do what he plans - especially eliminating pre-exisitng conditions from risk models.
 
L

LazerShark

Banned
When is Obama going to address his stance on drugs? His senator votes appear he's fairly liberal on the subject (supports harm reduction and reducing non-violent imprisonments) so it would be ridiculous for him to say nothing and continue Bush's policies while in office.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Tom_Cody said:
According to that specific study. One study's results are not tantamount to fact.

Are you also in the camp that thinks McCain opposed the bill because he doesn't care about the troops? :lol

Again, I personally support the Webb bill. We need to come up with better ways to keep our soldiers in the military. I also feel that the issue of our troop levels is extremely important though and it can't be ignored.
Click to expand...

No I'm not, but I do believe that McCain has no idea what "the troops" needs and desires actually are, and his opinion was probably shaped by being opposed to whatever the Dems were proposing, since it was an election year.
 
S

siamesedreamer

Banned
Saw this on AS:

It was fortunate for Tiger that his most-recent U.S. Open win occurred in 2008. Under twin tax proposals from Obama to 1) remove the "cap" from Social Security taxes for individuals earning over $250,000, a plateau Tiger has long since surpassed in 2008, and 2) eliminate the "Bush" tax cuts, thereby raising the top marginal federal income tax rate to 39.6 percent, Tiger's taxes on his winner's check would have increased to approximately $776,000, a boost of almost $190,000. Instead of Tiger keeping 57 percent of his earnings and the government taking 43 percent, under the twin Obama tax proposals, Tiger's federal and California taxes would have amounted to 57 percent of his winnings, leaving Tiger with just 43 percent.

<snip>

Only once since 1917 has there been a tax-rate increase equal to or greater than the two twin tax proposals being made by Obama. That tax increase, the Revenue Act of 1932, was proposed by Herbert Hoover. The result was an even greater budget deficit, plummeting tax revenue and a lengthier Great Depression.
Click to expand...

LINK
 
Guileless

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
I have to say, Sen. Obama is one tantalizingly vague but open-ended comment about possibly allowing space to get good and weaponized away from intriguing me.
 
A

adamsappel

Member
bob_arctor said:
I strongly suspect however that your main beefs are his economic views followed closely by his universal healthcare plans, both of which are probably at odds with your political DNA.
Click to expand...
I thought SD actually preferred Obama's healthcare plan, as it eliminates pre-existing condition rejections.
 
M

maynerd

Banned
siamesedreamer said:
Saw this on AS:



LINK
Click to expand...

Oh what will Tiger ever do with so little money? I guess he'll just decide to quit playing golf so he won't have to pay so much in taxes.

adamsappel said:
I thought SD actually preferred Obama's healthcare plan, as it eliminates pre-existing condition rejections.
Click to expand...

I believe that this is the case as well. SD only wants things that help him and not society in general.
 
O

Odrion

Banned
I can sum up the entire first term of an Obama presidency (From their eyes) in four pictures. Mind you, they will think these things no matter what he does
Click to expand...
Pfft, we all know that the next four years SD will be posting news articles on everything negative Obama will ever do and saying how offended he is whenever anyone dares to accuse him of being anything more than a messenger.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Chuck Todd said that the only two out of the last 7 Dem nominees that was really able to talk effectively about their faith were Carter and Clinton. That's a good sign for Obama I guess.:lol

John McCain just demanded that General Clark be cut loose? Oh fuck him!
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
The whole guilt-by-association bullshit is getting tiring. I thought it was a valid criticism with respect to Wright, but nearly every following association has been weak at best. Obama has said over and over again that he respects McCain's service. He says it in nearly every speech he gives. Yet now Clark's comments are Obama's fault, and right wingers are claiming this is another case of Obama being a typical politician? What does the man have to do, jeez.

Clark brings up some valid points with respect to military service not equaling any qualification to be president - an argument that works well against his own 2004 run btw - but I'm not a fan of him talking about McCain's...aerial problems. The dude was tortured for years and didn't break, if that's not heroic I don't know what is
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
What's worse is that McCain is accusing the left and Obama of attacking McCain's military service... and he is using Swift Boaters to come out and condemn those "attacks."

It's a straw man that would make CT blush, at best, and hypocrisy, at worst.
 
M

Macam

Banned
Tamanon said:
BTW, I've been on a bit of a Bill Moyers kick about the war and am listening to a report he did from Apr 07 called Buying the War, basically laying out the timetable for what happened, who influenced what, what the press did and the skepticism of certain press programs. Fascinating and infuriating stuff, especially listening to some of the rhetoric in the run-up.

Got it off iTunes for free.
Click to expand...

Bill Moyers' The Journal is fantastic and I highly recommend subscribing to the audio and/or video podcasts (iTMS link) on there for free. Alternatively, you can watch the show for free off of the PBS website.
 
V

ViperVisor

Member
1997

Sen. McCAIN: I m--made serious, serious mistakes and did things wrong when I was in prison, OK?

WALLACE: What did you do wrong in prison?

Sen. McCAIN: I wrote a confession. I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. I intentionally bombed women and children.

WALLACE: And you did it because you were being tortured...

Sen. McCAIN: I...

WALLACE: ...and you'd reached the end of the line.

Sen. McCAIN: Yes. But I should have gone further. I should have--I--I never believed that I would--that I would break, and I did.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Yeah I only recently discovered itunes podcasts earlier this year when I got my first ipod. It's on my subscription list. The Jon Stewart interview was great. I still maintain Moyers would make a good Meet the Press host!

And was that true about a CIA agent being pressured to come up with WMD intelligence and nuke intelligence on Iran and when he didn't lie about it he was fired? That's fucking atrocious.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
WTF at that Beijing Olympics & Mummy 3 inter-commercial mix :lol :lol
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
maynerd said:
What McCain says are not tantamount to fact either.
Click to expand...


I don't even know how to respond to this. I already stated that I support Webb's bill. My criticism of Webb is his dismissal and lack of recognition of his opponent's valid position, while criticizing those opponents for not caring about our troops.

The irony of this is, after overtly politicizing his own bill, he is now criticizing McCain for politicizing the military.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Eh, he has always said that he doesn't understand why McCain opposes the bill, and has rebutted the retention rate claims at the same time, never said that McCain doesn't support the troops or made it political.

And oh noooooooos, the terrorists have won!

bush%20fist%20bump.jpg


http://images.politico.com/global/bush fist bump.jpg
 
M

maynerd

Banned
Tom_Cody said:
I don't even know how to respond to this. I already stated that I support Webb's bill. My criticism of Webb is his dismissal and lack of recognition of his opponent's valid position, while criticizing those opponents for not caring about our troops.

The irony of this is, after overtly politicizing his own bill, he is now criticizing McCain for politicizing the military.
Click to expand...

I was responding to what you said. You said that the study which contradicted McCain's reason for being against the bill wasn't necessarily fact. So my response to you is, well just cause McCain says otherwise doesn't make his statement fact either. I think I'll side with the government study before I listen McCain.

I've not said anything about the other things you said.
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Dan Abrams pointing out that the Supreme Court as a 5-4 balance is going to be dramatically shifted if McCain takes office since 2 of the judges most likely to leave are liberal appointees, if Obama takes office, at most they'll hold serve as being the same.
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
Tamanon said:
Eh, he has always said that he doesn't understand why McCain opposes the bill, and has rebutted the retention rate claims at the same time, never said that McCain doesn't support the troops or made it political.
Click to expand...

I have never heard him call out McCain by name as not caring about the troops, but I have certainly heard him say that about the opponents of the bill (with McCain being one of the most two most visible).

How would McCain opposing this bill help him politically? As I noted before, voting for a military benefits package is an easy of PR move for any member of congress. To say that McCain opposed the bill simply because it came from a democrat is simply ridiculous. I realize that this another debate entirely, but McCain has an establish track record for crossing the aisle. Why would he suddenly draw a line in the sand when presented with this GI bill?

Whatever... There is nothing useful being discussed here. If you merely think McCain is a partisan hack and there's nothing more to this, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Karma Kramer said:
Everyone tune into fox news right now... this shit is hilarious.

Colmes is fucking owning everyone. Its amazing actually.
Click to expand...

I want to bang that brunette.
 
R

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Karma Kramer said:
Ugh.. really?

She fucking scared me when she got really intense about the swift votes. Looked like some demon.
Click to expand...

I didn't say I wanted to have a conversation with her, now did I?
 
T

Tom_Cody

Member
maynerd said:
I was responding to what you said. You said that the study which contradicted McCain's reason for being against the bill wasn't necessarily fact. So my response to you is, well just cause McCain says otherwise doesn't make his statement fact either. I think I'll side with the government study before I listen McCain.
Click to expand...
Okay, but there are other studies that disagree with that one, which is my point. This issue should be considered a valid subject of debate because of this lack of agreement.

maynerd said:
I've not said anything about the other things you said.
Click to expand...
If you were ignoring my other statements, that merely makes your first post totally useless. The issue that I'm trying to raise is that the point of troop levels should be debated along with Webb's bill. I never said one side was right or wrong, where as you seem to feel that a single study is enough to make this decision. Questioning this does not mean that you don't care about our soldiers.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Zonar said:
Hi Gaffers!

I need to tell someone that we were in the middle east under false pretenses. but i need some facts to back my self up. Can you all send me some links about proven facts that this administration lied to the American people with held information, and exzadreated the information we did have. Also she says we were their to bring peace to the middle east. Can someone give me a list of other places where much more wrong was being done such as the massacres in South Africa.
Click to expand...

How about the Center for Public Integrities searchable database of the 935 public lies by the Bush administration?:
http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/

Knock yourself out.
 
M

maynerd

Banned
Tom_Cody said:
How would McCain opposing this bill help him politically?[/U] As I noted before, voting for a military benefits package is an easy of PR move for any member of congress. To say that McCain opposed the bill simply because it came from a democrat is simply ridiculous. I realize that this another debate entirely, but McCain has an establish track record for crossing the aisle. Why would he suddenly draw a line in the sand when presented with this GI bill?
Click to expand...

Why are bush and mccain trying to act like they had something to do with the passing of the bill when they were opposed to it prior to it being signed. I'm just askin...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/27/141036/548

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/43524-bush-and-mccain-take-credit-for-the-gi-bill-they-opposed

Tom_Cody said:
Okay, but there are other studies that disagree with that one, which is my point. This issue should be considered a valid subject of debate because of this lack of agreement.


If you were ignoring my other statements, that merely makes your first post totally useless.
Click to expand...

What studies?

And I can address a point you made directly which was to dismiss the study I don't have to discuss your entire post.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
Tamanon said:
Technically he did break, but that doesn't take anything away from the experience and validation of his service.
Click to expand...
I agree.

But could you imagine if the shoe were on the other foot? What would Ann Coulter say?

She blames Max Cleland for losing his own limbs in Viet Nam . . . if the situation were reversed she'd probably be saying that the USA should give John McCain a bill for the aircraft he lost when he got shot down by being so incomptent. :lol
 
W

WickedAngel

Banned
speculawyer said:
I agree.

But could you imagine if the shoe were on the other foot? What would Ann Coulter say?

She blames Max Cleland for losing his own limbs in Viet Nam . . . if the situation were reversed she'd probably be saying that the USA should give John McCain a bill for the aircraft he lost when he got shot down by being so incomptent. :lol
Click to expand...

The missile was just gliding along, minding it's own business...and then some bastard American dog flew into it with his plane.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

SCHiM | Review Thread
Analysis Review
7
821
Eiknarf replied
[IGN] Explaining – and Fixing – IGN's Face-Off Controversy
20
2K
March Climber replied
Sand Land | Review Thread
Opinion Analysis Review
16
2K
adamsapple replied
Sexualizing
Opinion Drama Science 2
62
6K
Raonak replied
[GI.biz] Cheap money and bad bets: How the games industry turned pandemic success into disaster
2
75
3K
sharp weiner replied
Top Bottom