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[adamsappel]

The dude was tortured for years and didn't break, if that's not heroic I don't know what is

Technically he did break, but that doesn't take anything away from the experience and validation of his service.

The only people who don't think soldiers will or should break during torture are armchair/internet tough guys with macho Red Dawn fantasies. Military commanders expect their troops to resist, but there is no shame in making "confessions." McCain's most heroic gesture while a POW was refusing to be released out-of-turn because of his father's position (Commander of US forces in the Vietnam theater).

Because it's such a third-rail topic, I've never heard an honest assessment of McCain's non-POW war record. He was at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy, was he also a bad pilot?

Holy crap, I've never read Wesley Clark's wiki page. The guy's a flat-out genius and he's no desk-warrior like I'd assumed.

 

[speculawyer]

And oh noooooooos, the terrorists have won!

http://images.politico.com/global/bush fist bump.jpg

My exact thoughts when I saw that image today. I love the look on Bush's face . . . its like he knows he is not supposed to do the fist bump but he wants to do it and hopes he won't get caught. :lol

 

[teiresias]

Colmes: "He believes in Jesus Christ"

Her: "please..."

Okay, dates off.

Wait, please tell me that wasn't some sarcastic "please" as in "you can't possibly believe that, please"? Holy crap.

 

[LazerShark]

When is someone going to answer my question? Drugs aren't enough to stand out for you?

 

[speculawyer]

Holy crap, I've never read Wesley Clark's wiki page. The guy's a flat-out genius and he's no desk-warrior like I'd assumed.

Many suspect that the GOPers are trying to make a big deal out of the Clark statement so that he'll get taken off Obama's VP short list.

 

[Tamanon]

Lazer: He has been for marijuana decriminalization and pushed for equality of drug laws. Other than that, drug laws just don't get talked about by any candidate.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Wait, please tell me that wasn't some sarcastic "please" as in "you can't possibly believe that, please"? Holy crap.

Turn on fox news... this bitch won't stop.

 

[reilo]

Wait, please tell me that wasn't some sarcastic "please" as in "you can't possibly believe that, please"? Holy crap.

I don't know how else to summarize it than that, yes.

Colmes flat out asked her "so, you don't believe Obama is a Christian?" and she never answered that question.

 

[Karma Kramer]

"Wealthier is healthier... Wealthier is cleaner..."


What?

 

[reilo]

This guy on FOXNEWS is arguing that we are healthier because our oil/coal dependency has made us WEALTHIER.

Wealthier is healthier! If you have more money, you will be more healthy!

Good god.

 

[The Librarian]

My exact thoughts when I saw that image today. I love the look on Bush's face . . . its like he knows he is not supposed to do the fist bump but he wants to do it and hopes he won't get caught. :lol

:lol :lol
I looked over the image again because I at first thought they were shaking hands but then I realized it was a fist bump.

 

[Tamanon]

Bush's facial expression is basically "This is awesome!"

 

[adamsappel]

When is someone going to answer my question? Drugs aren't enough to stand out for you?

I would love for marijuana decriminalization/legalization to be honestly debated by candidates and thoughtfully considered by voters. Neither is going to happen. But, just think for a second on which candidate is even remotely in your corner on this issue. Do you think it's the young guy who has admitted to drug use in his past, or your grandpa?

 

[speculawyer]

I would love for marijuana decriminalization/legalization to be honestly debated by candidates and thoughtfully considered by voters. Neither is going to happen. But, just think for a second on which candidate is even remotely in your corner on this issue. Do you think it's the young guy who has admitted to drug use in his past, or your grandpa?

Exactly.

And I think legalization with heavy taxing would be great to help reduce the fiscal nightmare that Bush has created.

 

[Tom_Cody]

Why is bush and mccain trying to act like they had something to do with the passing of the bill when they were opposed to it prior to it being signed. I'm just askin...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/6/27/141036/548

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/43524-bush-and-mccain-take-credit-for-the-gi-bill-they-opposed



What studies?

And I can address a point you made directly which was to dismiss the study I don't have to discuss your entire post.

This is getting too time consuming. This will be my last post for now so I can get back to enjoying the real world. I will take the time to post some studies if I get around to it. As of right now I will take the commentators that I've heard quote them at their word. If you want to believe that it is a scientifically proven fact that Webb's original bill will actually increase troop levels you are entitled to believe that.

I have a big problem with Bush's statement, specifically that he failed to call out Webb as the one behind the bill. Webb should be given his credit. I don't think McCain's statement is as egregious, but I'm not happy about it either. I am not a McCain shill despite what you seem to think (though I don't want to put words into your mouth).

I never dismissed that study. A single study is useful as a component of a debate. My original statement stands, a single study should not be taken as fact. A single study does not end a debate, it is part of it.

 

[Hitokage]

This guy on FOXNEWS is arguing that we are healthier because our oil/coal dependency has made us WEALTHIER.

Wealthier is healthier! If you have more money, you will be more healthy!

Good god.

It's working in China!

 

[speculawyer]

This guy on FOXNEWS is arguing that we are healthier because our oil/coal dependency has made us WEALTHIER.
Wealthier is healthier! If you have more money, you will be more healthy!
Good god.

The wealthy people on the top may be healty . . . the 50 million Americans with no healthcare are not.

 

[Frank the Great]

The wealthy people on the top may be healty . . . the 50 million Americans with no healthcare are not.

The health of the rich people trickles down to benefit everyone.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

The health of the rich people trickles down to benefit everyone.

Bush really should have swung for the fences in the 1980 primary and just called it Urination Economics.

 

[speculawyer]

The health of the rich people trickles down to benefit everyone.

I think that may have been this guy's healthcare plan.

 

[The Crimson Kid]

Saw this on AS:

LINK

Damn shame America's richest athletes won't be able to feed their families after Obama becomes President...

1997

Sen. McCAIN: I m--made serious, serious mistakes and did things wrong when I was in prison, OK?

WALLACE: What did you do wrong in prison?

Sen. McCAIN: I wrote a confession. I was guilty of war crimes against the Vietnamese people. I intentionally bombed women and children.

WALLACE: And you did it because you were being tortured...

Sen. McCAIN: I...

WALLACE: ...and you'd reached the end of the line.

Sen. McCAIN: Yes. But I should have gone further. I should have--I--I never believed that I would--that I would break, and I did.

Source? I'd like to know more.

 

[Gaborn]

What do you think about when you meditate? Usually, some form of trying to excavate any kind of negative thing cycling in the mind and turn it toward the positive. For example, when I am annoyed with Dick Cheney, I meditate on how Dick Cheney was my mother in a previous life and nursed me at his breast.

You mean you fantasize about being breast-fed by Dick Cheney? It’s a fantasy of releasing fear and developing affection. It’s a way of coming back to feeling grateful toward him and seeing his positive side, finding the mother in Dick Cheney.

What would Freud say about that? Freud would freak out. He would say, “Well, you are seeking the oceanic feeling of the baby in the womb.” Infantile regression — that’s what he thought the quest for enlightenment was.

When I want to feel compassion for an unlikable person, I imagine him as someone’s adored son. Some lamas do that. They say that that’s easier for Americans, because often Americans have personality problems with their moms.

Full interview here. *shudder*

 

[speculawyer]

Full interview here. *shudder*

All right . . . someone fire up Photoshop. :lol

 

[Stinkles]

refusing to be released out-of-turn because of his father's position (Commander of US forces in the Vietnam theater).

Because it's such a third-rail topic, I've never heard an honest assessment of McCain's non-POW war record. He was at the bottom of his class at the Naval Academy, was he also a bad pilot?

.

One of the worst academics ever and crashed five planes. See bold part for why that was OK. No offense, he's more man than I'll ever be, but he's the spoiled scion of an elite brass.

However, internet rumors trying to pin the Forrestal fire on him are beneath contempt and ridiculous.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I had a bit of a laugh reading CNN's write-up of their poll earlier. I know the MSM wants this to be a tie, but their article was hilarious. fivethirtyeight dismantled it nicely.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/07/and-here-i-thought-john-kerry-lost.html

 

[speculawyer]

One of the worst academics ever and crashed five planes.

Wait . . . . WHAT? Is that like the Obama is Muslim rumor?

Edit: WTF? Is this true?

 

[reilo]

Wait . . . . WHAT? Is that like the Obama is Muslim rumor?

Edit: WTF? Is this true?

Robert Timberg, author of The Nightingale's Song, a book about Annapolis graduates and their tours in Vietnam, wrote that McCain "learned to fly at Pensacola, though his performance was below par, at best good enough to get by. He liked flying, but didn't love it." Timberg counts himself a friend of McCain and has written a McCain biography.

It wasn't long after arriving in Pensacola that McCain racked up the first of his five crashes, beginning in 1958, on his way to becoming a "reverse ace." As told by Timberg, "McCain was practicing landings; his engine quit and he plunged into Corpus Christi Bay. Knocked unconscious by the impact, he came to as the plane settled to the bottom."

There was, however, no engine failure with the aircraft. According to one of McCain's former flight instructors, "The engine was removed from the aircraft that afternoon, mounted on a test stand and a new propeller installed. [It] was flushed with fresh water and started. It ran just fine. So the theory of engine failure was proven false."

The instructor added that McCain was "positively one of the weakest students to pass our way, and received consistently poor marks and a number of Dangerous Down grades assigned by more than one instructor. He had no real ability and was clearly out of his element in an airplane, and way over his head even as a junior naval officer."

Oh my god.

I don't know how I feel about this. Should the media bring this up, in light of his POW status during Vietnam?

EDIT:

"McCain had roughly 20 hours in combat," explains Bill Bell, a veteran of Vietnam and chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs -- the first official U.S. representative in Vietnam since the 1973 fall of Saigon. "Since McCain got 28 medals," Bell continues, "that equals out to about a medal-and-a-half for each hour he spent in combat. There were infantry guys -- grunts on the ground -- who had more than 7,000 hours in combat and I can tell you that there were times and situations where I'm sure a prison cell would have looked pretty good to them by comparison. The question really is how many guys got that number of medals for not being shot down."

holy shit.

 

[Apharmd]

Oh my god.

I don't know how I feel about this. Should the media bring this up, in light of his POW status during Vietnam?

no

it's stupid to bring this up.

 

[Hitokage]

While amusing, McCain's possible aerial ineptitude isn't relevant to his shortcomings as a presidential candidate.

 

[speculawyer]

I now know why the right hated him?

 

[Keylime]

While amusing, McCain's possible aerial ineptitude isn't relevant to his shortcomings as a presidential candidate.

This stuff is a clear indicator of his performance, however.

The guy crashed 5 planes and was generally considered to be a horrible student. I don't know...this seems pretty damning to me if the public really learned this stuff.

Definitely had an affect on me.

 

[Ventrue]

This stuff is a clear indicator of his performance, however.

The guy crashed 5 planes and was generally considered to be a horrible student. I don't know...this seems pretty damning to me if the public really learned this stuff.

Definitely had an affect on me.

His performance in flying and learning to fly. It isn't the reason he shouldn't be President.

This is the same way I felt when the press was running stories about Obama filling sandbags or whatever for flood relief. That's a nice thing to do, but unless the President is going to drive around the country solving individual people's problems through manual labour, it's not relevant.

They should be judged on their policies

Spoiler

and thus Obama should win

.

EDIT: It's worth noting that McCain's imprisonment, while certainly horrible for him and showing very courageous behavior on his part, should not be relevant either.

 

[Hitokage]

I now know why the right hated him?

Because they viewed him as carrying an unacceptably high level of LIBRUL, and considered him to be inauthentic and pandering?

 

[Keylime]

His performance in flying and learning to fly. It isn't the reason he shouldn't be President.

This is the same way I felt when the press was running stories about Obama filling sandbags or whatever for flood relief. That's a nice thing to do, but unless the President is going to drive around the country solving individual people's problems through manual labour, it's not relevant.

They should be judged on their policies

Spoiler

and thus Obama should win

.

No question that this isn't the only thing that should be used to pass judgment on the guy, but this info is pretty crazy to me.

To me it shows a huge issue with either motivation or capability.

 

[Hitokage]

Well, I suppose you could say it's symptomatic of a larger character flaw, but being a lousy pilot doesn't mean you'll be a lousy president. Blindly continuing to support the Iraq war does.

 

[Keylime]

Well, I suppose you could say it's symptomatic of a larger character flaw, but being a lousy pilot doesn't mean you'll be a lousy president.

No arguments here

 

[reilo]

The issue I find with McCain's ineptitude as a NAVY pilot is that he kept being rewarded for his incompetency because who his father was. You see similar things happening in politics and it always ends badly.

In John McCain's case, it put him in a position to be shot down over Vietnam and become a POW. Note, however, that I am not saying McCain was at fault for being hit by anti-aircraft artillery and I would never wish that upon anyone. I am just pointing out that had the NAVY treated him like a regular soldier, he would have never flown that mission. Then again, nobody could have foreseen those events.

This also brings to light that McCain's military service should not be used as a de facto positive for the reasons as to why he ought to be commander-in-chief. If that article is true, then I would fear that he would be as incompetent commander-in-chief as the current president that was an extremely incompetent student and got out of certain situations during his military service because who is father was.

That is why I posed the question as to whether or not the MSM should look into his military service more closely despite his POW status if he is going to be proclaimed as a better commander-in-chief because he served in the NAVY.

Well, I suppose you could say it's symptomatic of a larger character flaw, but being a lousy pilot doesn't mean you'll be a lousy president. Blindly continuing to support the Iraq war does.

But being a former soldier in the military does not mean you are more qualified to be president than the guy who did not serve based on enlistment status alone, either. Yet, the media and the populace is using his service as a positive attribute. Why?

That's what General Wesley Clark was asking, too.

 

[Verano]

Well, I suppose you could say it's symptomatic of a larger character flaw, but being a lousy pilot doesn't mean you'll be a lousy president. Blindly continuing to support the Iraq war does.

I agree with you with that sentiment about carrying a condition to another circumstance.

But, what about making the distinction that he wasn't as heroic as paints himself to be in public?

 

[Hitokage]

But being a former soldier in the military does not mean you are more qualified to be president than the guy who did not serve based on enlistment status alone, either. Yet, the media and the populace is using his service as a positive attribute. Why?

That's what General Wesley Clark was asking, too.

And he was right to do so!

 

[Synth_floyd]

Who cares that McCain "broke." He was being friggin tortured. Being made to sign a confession means nothing. Hell I'd sign anything to get them to stop. Why is this being made into a negative thing?

And I see Wes Clark's point in that serving in the military doesn't NECESSARILY make you more qualified for president, especially when McCain didn't hold any kind of leadership positions but the way he's saying it comes out like "McCain is a war hero...but who cares that he served in the army."

 

[Ventrue]

But, what about making the distinction that he wasn't as heroic as paints himself to be in public?

In mid-1968, McCain's father was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and McCain was offered early release. The North Vietnamese wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes, and also wanted to show other POWs that elites like McCain were willing to be treated preferentially.McCain turned down the offer of repatriation; he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.

In August of 1968, a program of severe torture began on McCain.[44] McCain was subjected to repeated beatings and rope bindings, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery. After four days, McCain made an anti-American propaganda "confession". He has always felt that his statement was dishonorable, but as he would later write, "I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine." His injuries left him permanently incapable of raising his arms above his head. He subsequently received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal to sign additional statements.

It doesn't make him qualified to be President, but it certainly shows him to be a fairly brave person.

 

[Tamanon]

Who cares that McCain "broke." He was being friggin tortured. Being made to sign a confession means nothing. Hell I'd sign anything to get them to stop. Why is this being made into a negative thing?

And I see Wes Clark's point in that serving in the military doesn't NECESSARILY make you more qualified for president, especially when McCain didn't hold any kind of leadership positions but the way he's saying it comes out like "McCain is a war hero...but who cares that he served in the army."

Nobody is saying that McCain breaking is a mark against him.

 

[teruterubozu]

Bah, this all should be left alone. I don't want to hear stories about Obama's weed and coke use in his youth either.

 

[maximum360]

Nice. McCain would still have gone to war in Iraq even knowing what now that our intelligence on WMDs was wrong: http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/113-07012008-1556942.html

Too bad the MSM won't highlight stupidity like this. Don't you love presidents who will stick to an opinion no matter what regardless of the facts.

 

[Particle Physicist]

...

doh.

 

[Diablos]

Just heard on the radio that McCain accepted $70,000 from the Swift Boat Vets.

I'll tell you what, the McCain camp is perhaps the biggest group of sissies that I've ever seen in politics. Wes Clark says "getting shot down isn't a qualification to be President" (and quite frankly it is the truth), and all of the sudden McCain tries to shape the message as being "Obama can't keep a leash on his surrogates." Please. These people are so desperate it's just funny. It'll be interesting to see if the Swift Boat Vets try to make a comeback in the fall now. It's not like Wes Clark said "McCain sucks and I hope he dies."

Buncha sissies...

 

[siamesedreamer]

wtf at this google ad:

when has obama EVER said that!!!??

YES

 

[siamesedreamer]

The surge has failed! Er...15 of 18 Benchmarks met.

 

[Tamanon]

No, 15 of 18 have not been met, the white house has said that 15 of 18 has had satisfactory progress.

 

[StoOgE]

The surge has failed! Er...15 of 18 Benchmarks met.

15 of the 18 have not been met. 15 of the 18 have had "satisfactory" results towards meeting the goals, and that is per the whitehouse. This is akin to grading your own test.

"Rep. Mike McIntyre, D-N.C., who requested the administration's updated assessment, scoffed at the May report, which he says uses the false standard of determining whether progress on a goal is "satisfactory" versus whether the benchmark has been met. He estimates that only a few of the 18 benchmarks have been fully achieved. "