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[reilo]

Oh please, Jesse Jackson (And since they are usually tied together, Al Sharpton as well) is hardly hated in the black community. His approval rating among blacks is probably higher then congress at this point....

Everytime he says something, people try and paint him as so radical and out of touch with blacks. The truth is that Obama is not doing himself any favors in the black community when he talks about progression in the community, and focuses strictly on missing fathers (Although he may bring up other issues, this is what his fathers day address was pushed as in the media). Is he hurting his black support? I highly doubt it, but he's certainly not the "ideal leader", and Jackson is correct that he has came off as condescending before, at least in the eyes of many.

I was talking about Obama managing to piss off everyone for bane reasons.

 

[maximum360]

I'm really perplexed how one man manages to piss off his own race, any opposing race, people on his side of politics, people on opposite side of politics, and every motherfucker inbetween!

It's like one group wants Obama to be everything what they stand for and not even make any considerations towards any other group. So when he does say something they don't like, they label him as being completely anti-whatever group they are a part of.

That is the conundrum Obama faces. The Right hates him. His base is is constantly whining that he's not a "raging liberal". The corporate media for the most part behave like the McCain campaign's unpaid staffers. At least his wife and kids love him. (And the moderates/independents don't seem to buy into GOPs attempts to paint him as the personification of all that is evil.)

 

[PhoenixDark]

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2008/07/09/jackson-apologizes-for-obama-words/

Jackson lol

I'm sure Jackson supports Obama but this is just more proof that he's resentful of his success. Obama has no connections to the civil rights era and has shown little interest in surrounding himself with the living remnants of that movement. Black "leaders" (and I hate using the word) like Cosby, Sharpton, and Jackson constantly criticize aspects of the black community, and while even Jackson felt Cosby went a bit too far he has never openly said one leader has no right to make such criticisms. Yet here he is putting Barrack Obama in his place?

 

[Gaborn]

Funny thing is, Obama's entire campaign has been about empowering the people and that the citizens of this country lead the way to change. He wants to give the populace the power to make themselves better and not rely on the entire government.

Many people fail to realize that and just instantly jumped on Obama's back and expect him to do everything. That's not what his message is about.

Giving the government back to the people and providing opportunities for an individual to rise on their own merits is what drew me to Obama, not the asinine belief that Obama would make everything magically work. He can't do it on his own, and it's up to us to make this country better for ourselves and future generations.

Ok, but if you perceive Obama, because you think he's so substantially better than the current government (not that he can be much worse) as a savior figure, it almost doesn't MATTER what Obama says his campaign is about, you're going to build him up and build him up in your mind.

He's extremely persuasive seeming in his rhetoric, he's good looking, etc. You asked why people keep getting upset with Obama, and I think it comes down to him not being what they THINK he's going to be. Personally I don't think that's a particularly good way to judge a candidate, you should look at them for what they ARE, not what you want them to be, but I think that's the root of it.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Did obama really just say that instead of worrying if immigrants will speak english we should be concerned with making sure our kids speak spanish?

 

[TDG]

The man is going through chemo right now and flew in for this vote. I wonder how the media will cover McCain skipping out.

Probably by not covering it at all.

Bingo. They might give it a few days if Obama calls him out on it (which he won't), until McCain's campaign starts going insane and demanding that people get fired.

 

[Kitschkraft]

I think the government responsibility was implied, but the entire point of Obama's speech was that the best way to succeed is to bring yourself up and not rely on others [ie the government] to completely and utterly bring you out of whatever undesirable situation you are in.

I think that holds true no matter what race or heritage you are.

This is a message that black people know, understand, and have actually come to expect. And this fact is why we are so sick of hearing it. Black people are not waiting for some caucasian magical carpet to come sweep us out of the ghetto or some shit. In fact, the average brutha in poverty is actually more distrusting of the government and whites then they are hopeful for some sort of help.

 

[maximum360]

Oh please, Jesse Jackson (And since they are usually tied together, Al Sharpton as well) is hardly hated in the black community. His approval rating among blacks is probably higher then congress at this point....

Everytime he says something, people try and paint him as so radical and out of touch with blacks. The truth is that Obama is not doing himself any favors in the black community when he talks about progression in the community, and focuses strictly on missing fathers (Although he may bring up other issues, this is what his fathers day address was pushed as in the media). Is he hurting his black support? I highly doubt it, but he's certainly not the "ideal leader", and Jackson is correct that he has came off as condescending before, at least in the eyes of many.

Regardless, this actually will go to help Obama. As long as he doesn't appease to Jackson on this issue he can only gain white support by being seen as in contrast to Jesse Jackson. And as stated, he's not going to lose any black support regardless.

Come to think of it. JJ may be doing Obama a favor here. Obama will still have the black vote no matter what. This could help Obama get some more of the 'working class white vote'.

 

[worldrunover]

I was talking about Obama managing to piss off everyone for bane reasons.

Do you think there's a *slight* chance he's being vetted more than past candidates because of his.... *ehem* well, you know.

 

[reilo]

Ok, but if you perceive Obama, because you think he's so substantially better than the current government (not that he can be much worse) as a savior figure, it almost doesn't MATTER what Obama says his campaign is about, you're going to build him up and build him up in your mind.

He's extremely persuasive seeming in his rhetoric, he's good looking, etc. You asked why people keep getting upset with Obama, and I think it comes down to him not being what they THINK he's going to be. Personally I don't think that's a particularly good way to judge a candidate, you should look at them for what they ARE, not what you want them to be, but I think that's the root of it.

I look at Obama for what he is - a decent, educated [yes, this matters to me a fuckton, no more bottom-class feeders bailed out by their daddy's in high places], logical, and fair minded individual.

Do you think there's a *slight* chance he's being vetted more than past candidates because of his.... *ehem* well, you know.

Because he's a liberal black dude from Chicago? Yes.

 

[syllogism]

Did obama really just say that instead of worrying if immigrants will speak english we should be concerned with making sure our kids speak spanish?

Surely you saw the whole video and understand the context. Or are you just quoting some right wing blog?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZprtPat1Vk

 

[Kitschkraft]

I was talking about Obama managing to piss off everyone for bane reasons.

Oh, my fault...

 

[reilo]

I think we ought to be concerned that ALL of our kids learn to speak proper english, and not just immigrant kids.

Mind you, I am an immigrant that is fluent in three languages [english being my third].

EDIT: lol that was some fucked up typo on my part.

 

[soul creator]

This is a message that black people know, understand, and have actually come to expect. And this fact is why we are so sick of hearing it. Black people are not waiting for some caucasian magical carpet to come sweep us out of the ghetto or some shit. In fact, the average brutha in poverty is actually more distrusting of the government and whites then they are hopeful for some sort of help.

yeah, it's a fine line between "tough love on your own people" and "calling out your own people to look good to others".

And of course, don't let Obama make any sort of criticism of other groups...

Spoiler

bitter!

 

[Jonm1010]

Jesse Jackson is like the less smooth Clay Davis of the real world.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Jesse Jackson doesn't represent all black people, or even the majority. Neither does Obama. Sounds like personal beef from Jesse, and the slow news cycle trying to attribute this sentiment to the community at-large. PEACE.

 

[Kitschkraft]

yeah, it's a fine line between "tough love on your own people" and "calling out your own people to look good to others".

Yup, exactly.

What bruthas need to get used to (If we haven't already from other examples) is that when push comes to shove, Obama is going to need to take the second route more often then not to win in November.

And of course, don't let Obama make any sort of criticism of other groups...

Spoiler

bitter!

Yeah, it's a shame that he can be highly applauded for his remarks to blacks about cleaning up shit in the community, but when he tells these rural whites that they need to grow the fuck up out of the 1600's, he's chastised.

 

[Gaborn]

I look at Obama for what he is - a decent, educated [yes, this matters to me a fuckton, no more bottom-class feeders bailed out by their daddy's in high places], logical, and fair minded individual.

And i understand and respect that, however that's not exactly useful to understand the mentality of Jesse Jackson and other people that become disenchanted by Obama in some respects.

 

[Mercury Fred]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about FISA here.

I'm absolutely disgusted by Senate Dems, especially Barack "Hope & Change, New Politics" Obama. What a sick bunch of spineless, power hungry, wastes of space we've elected to the Senate. It's absurd. And fuck Obama. He's not a leader. He's not about change. He's not progressive. He's a huge sham and a complete disappointment.

Watch Maddow and Jon Turley try to make heads or tails of the selling out of the American public by the Democrats and their "leader" Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dotDveXReM8

 

[LizardKing]

fuck this jackson shit, where is the thread to bitch about the fisa bill?

edit: lol mercury fred, our minds they are like one.

 

[ralexand]

Exactly. You can laugh at the old people all you want but they'll be out in force come November. Their level of "enthusiasm" is irrelevant when compared to things that are actually important (to them) - whether it's judges or Iran or whatever.

But what you guys are talking about is enthusiasm. Judges and Iran leads to enthusiasm for McCain. Young people forgetting to votes shows a lack of enthusiasm for Obama. Enthusiasm is why Bush beat Kerry despite of an unpopular war. Bush rallied his base, Kerry didn't to the same extent.

And everyone needs to lower their expectations of Obama:
The left wing is pissed over fisa
The right wing is pissed because they can't pigeon hole him into being a marxist and lecturing them on being multilingual.
Blacks are pissed that he lectured them on personal responsibility

It's time people realize that the guy can't agree with you %100 about everything.


The only base he hasn't manage to piss off is hispanics.

 

[Tamanon]

FISA's been debated and kvetched about for the past week or two, there's really nothing more to say.

 

[bob_arctor]

Watch Maddow and Jon Turley try to make heads or tails of the selling out of the American public by the Democrats and their "leader" Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dotDveXReM8

You had me at "Watch Maddow".

 

[ToyMachine228]

I don't understand why people get so worked up about surveillance. It happens whether it's legal or not. Do I like it? No. But it happens and has happened for a long long time. I'm personally more concerned with the Medicare vote than the FISA vote. The fucking Patriot Act shouldn't have started this shit in the first place.

 

[Mercury Fred]

fuck this jackson shit, where is the thread to bitch about the fisa bill?

edit: lol mercury fred, our minds they are like one.

*cue Twilight Zone music*

I think the reason there isn't much talk is because there is no defense for this vote and PoliGAF is overwhelmingly Pro-Obama. That means some soul searching needs to be done going forward in support of him as a candidate and acknowledging the hard truth that they'd been sold lies about "new politics." I mean I guess it is kind of new(ish?) for Democrats to facilitate the destruction of the fourth amendment.

 

[LizardKing]

wow guys, now obama supports the bill and gaf does an about face of their opinion since this thread....

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238944&highlight=senate

I'm as big of an obama supporter as anyone, but this is really dissapointing.

 

[GhaleonEB]

*cue Twilight Zone music*

I think the reason there isn't much talk is because there is no defense for this vote and PoliGAF is overwhelmingly Pro-Obama. That means some soul searching needs to be done going forward in support of him as a candidate and acknowledging the hard truth that they'd been sold lies about "new politics." I mean I guess it is kind of new(ish?) for Democrats to facilitate the destruction of the fourth amendment.

FISA has been discussed at length for weeks on end. Pretty sure every Obama supporter on the board - myself included - is disappointed.

 

[Lv99 Slacker]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about FISA here.

I'm absolutely disgusted by Senate Dems, especially Barack "Hope & Change, New Politics" Obama. What a sick bunch of spineless, power hungry, wastes of space we've elected to the Senate. It's absurd. And fuck Obama. He's not a leader. He's not about change. He's not progressive. He's a huge sham and a complete disappointment.

Watch Maddow and Jon Turley try to make heads or tails of the selling out of the American public by the Democrats and their "leader" Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dotDveXReM8

Most of us Obama supporters here and elsewhere are baffled and, of course, horribly disappointed for his support of this bill. We've already said our piece, and it appears that most of us are still going to vote for him when faced with the alternative.

 

[Tamanon]

wow guys, now obama supports the bill and gaf does an about face of their opinion since this thread....

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238944&highlight=senate

I'm as big of an obama supporter as anyone, but this is really dissapointing.

Er, the Obama supporters haven't really changed their tune on it. Many folks have voiced their displeasure about it since it passed the house and Obama's statement.

 

[Triumph]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about FISA here.

I'm absolutely disgusted by Senate Dems, especially Barack "Hope & Change, New Politics" Obama. What a sick bunch of spineless, power hungry, wastes of space we've elected to the Senate. It's absurd. And fuck Obama. He's not a leader. He's not about change. He's not progressive. He's a huge sham and a complete disappointment.

Watch Maddow and Jon Turley try to make heads or tails of the selling out of the American public by the Democrats and their "leader" Obama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dotDveXReM8

HOW'D YOUR GIRL HILLARY VOTE ON IT???

While I for one don't like what was done, I'm confident that it can and will be UNDONE early next year. You basically just don't like Obama (nothing wrong with that) and are looking for any and every reason to bitch about him.

 

[Amir0x]

Yeah i have in fact taken a break from PoliGAF so as not to have to vent my frustration with Obama during this transition from primary to general election campaign.

 

[Tamanon]

HOW'D YOUR GIRL HILLARY VOTE ON IT???

While I for one don't like what was done, I'm confident that it can and will be UNDONE early next year. You basically just don't like Obama (nothing wrong with that) and are looking for any and every reason to bitch about him.

Oddly enough Hillary switched sides. She was for it while running and flipped to voting against it. It's bizarre. But also, your second point is true about Mercury.

 

[syllogism]

I'd be surprised if even Obama supporter here has read the bill

Spoiler

I do not support FISA but the constant outrage, especially on dailykos, is rather annoying. Of course this being the Internet no one even entertains the thought that that, well, they could be wrong about FISA or at the very least reasonable men can disagree on it.

 

[LizardKing]

ok well that's good to know i guess. i haven't been in a poligaf thread in a while i was on vacation. thanks for catching me up. still this is all fairly new to me so i'm pissed now

 

[GhaleonEB]

The Medicare bill that Kennedy returned for passed, with a veto-proof majority.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11638.html

A bunch of Republicans switched their vote at the last minute.

 

[reilo]

Oddly enough Hillary switched sides. She was for it while running and flipped to voting against it. It's bizarre. But also, your second point is true about Mercury.

Is it a flip-flop if the candidate flips to your position on an issue?

 

[Tamanon]

The Medicare bill that Kennedy returned for passed, with a veto-proof majority.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11638.html

A bunch of Republicans switched their vote at the last minute.

That's fucking awesome.

Reilo: McCain certainly seems to think so, otherwise Obama would never have flip-flopped on anything!

 

[Mercury Fred]

HOW'D YOUR GIRL HILLARY VOTE ON IT???
While I for one don't like what was done, I'm confident that it can and will be UNDONE early next year. You basically just don't like Obama (nothing wrong with that) and are looking for any and every reason to bitch about him.

She voted against, unlike Obama.

But if she had voted for it, I'd have nothing but bile and contempt for her, just like I do for the rest of the Democratic "leaders" that voted against the American people. For the record, I don't think Hillary is so wonderful. I initially supported her because I thought she had a better chance to win a general election, not because of her forward-thinking progressive stances.

I was willing to support Obama after he got the nom, but his anti-gay marriage statements fresh after the California decision and now FISA ensure I won't vote this time out.

 

[LizardKing]

also if these telecom lawsuits are actually tried in court i can't see how this bill will hold up. if it goes to the top i'd have to think (hope) that the bill would be declared unconstitutional. hopefully all it will do is delay things at the most.

 

[Triumph]

She voted against, unlike Obama.

But if she had voted for it, I'd have nothing but bile and contempt for her, just like I do for the rest of the Democratic "leaders" that voted against the American people. For the record, I don't think Hillary is so wonderful. I initially supported her because I thought she had a better chance to win a general election, not because of her forward-thinking progressive stances.

I was willing to support Obama after he got the nom, but his anti-gay marriage statements fresh after the California decision and now FISA ensure I won't vote this time out.

Congratulations, you're stupid.

 

[Triumph]

also if these telecom lawsuits are actually tried in court i can't see how this bill will hold up. if it goes to the top i'd have to think (hope) that the bill would be declared unconstitutional. hopefully all it will do is delay things at the most.

:lol Have you SEEN the makeup of our SC currently? We're REALLY fucked if McCain sneaks in, because if there's one thing Senate dems have proven in the past eight years it's that it doesn't matter how many of them there are, there's not two balls amongst them.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Congratulations, you're stupid.

Good argument.

Keep making that one while Hope and Change fucks you over repeatedly.

 

[Tamanon]

If McCain makes it, then the balance of the court is entirely fucked. There'll be no more 5-4 decisions, it'll be 6-3s all over the place, and some bad ones

 

[Gaborn]

:lol Have you SEEN the makeup of our SC currently? We're REALLY fucked if McCain sneaks in, because if there's one thing Senate dems have proven in the past eight years it's that it doesn't matter how many of them there are, there's not two balls amongst them.

Are you suggesting Obama is a eunuch?

 

[reilo]

She voted against, unlike Obama.

But if she had voted for it, I'd have nothing but bile and contempt for her, just like I do for the rest of the Democratic "leaders" that voted against the American people. For the record, I don't think Hillary is so wonderful. I initially supported her because I thought she had a better chance to win a general election, not because of her forward-thinking progressive stances.

I was willing to support Obama after he got the nom, but his anti-gay marriage statements fresh after the California decision and now FISA ensure I won't vote this time out.

Good god not this shit again.

 

[scorcho]

She voted against, unlike Obama.

But if she had voted for it, I'd have nothing but bile and contempt for her, just like I do for the rest of the Democratic "leaders" that voted against the American people. For the record, I don't think Hillary is so wonderful. I initially supported her because I thought she had a better chance to win a general election, not because of her forward-thinking progressive stances.

I was willing to support Obama after he got the nom, but his anti-gay marriage statements fresh after the California decision and now FISA ensure I won't vote this time out.

you're right, he's so anti-gay it hurts. in this case Obama is taking the proper track on a very divisive issue.

 

[Triumph]

Good argument.

Keep making that one while Hope and Change fucks you over repeatedly.

You're right, a McCain presidency will be leagues better than an Obama presidency. Way to go, buddy. DUH DUH DUH. Obama's tacking to the center for the general and IT'S WORKING. Fewer people view him as a liberal and he's whipping the shit out of McCain amongst moderates. You really think he's gonna do everything (or NOT do some things) he's talking about now? Do I like it? Fuck no, I voted for Nader twice. In fact I'm so displeased about it I'm probably not gonna volunteer for Obama this fall, which considering the extent of my involvement in the primaries is saying something. But not voting for him is fucking DUMB, unless you're Gaborn or something.

 

[The Chosen One]

Hilldawg flip-floped against the bill because she no longer has to worry about running a general election campagn and being a "centrist" and she can just appease the left wing of the party for now.

Isn't this thread getting a litttle long in the tooth? When are you guys going to make a new PoliGAF thread? I don' t think this one is going to make it to the VEEP selections.

 

[Kitschkraft]

I'm surprised there isn't more talk about FISA here.

I'm absolutely disgusted by Senate Dems, especially Barack "Hope & Change, New Politics" Obama. What a sick bunch of spineless, power hungry, wastes of space we've elected to the Senate. It's absurd. And fuck Obama. He's not a leader. He's not about change. He's not progressive. He's a huge sham and a complete disappointment.

Not every single Obama supporter on gaf and elsewhere is all "OMG, he's a different politician", "He will change everything", "He's going to be a perfect leader" or any other stereotype of Obama supporter that you can think of.

I'm just as disgusted by Senate Dems as you are, I've been disgusted since they continued to fund the war, it just is what it is.

I'm not giving McSame 3 supreme court justice picks, thats all there is to it.

 

[Gaborn]

you're right, he's so anti-gay it hurts. in this case Obama is taking the proper track on a very divisive issue.

It's odd that Obama claims he opposes that amendment, also opposes gay marriage, and supports second class civil unions. I don't think he actually knows WHAT to think on the issue.