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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)
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Mercury Fred
Banned
Talk to me when Hope & Change retracts his "my religious beliefs lead me to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman" crap.scorcho said:
Anyway, that issue has been done to death, and doesn't need to be further discussed.
I guess I'm just blown away that this piece of shit is the best the Dems can do. I can't wait to be thrown under a bus for the next 4-8 years. Have fun voting for this sellout. I'm sure he's better than McCain, but we deserver so much better than this hoax.
speculawyer
Member
Meh . . . clearly Obama is in 'thumb-his-nose-at-the-liberals' stage right now in attempts to get as many centrists as possible. The more bitching and moaning the left does, the more it probably helps Obama as long as that left doesn't bail or vote Nader.
I don't know if he's really serious about a lot of the things he's said lately . . . and even if he is, he's still better than McCain.
However, it is kinda weird in that it is hard to name a position where McCain has 'moved to the center' from the right . . . perhaps it was because he already was in the center mostly and had to move so far right in order to get the nomination. If he moves back, he opens himself up to (even more) flip-flop charges. Most of these Obama centrist views are centrist views he has pretty much always had.
I don't know if he's really serious about a lot of the things he's said lately . . . and even if he is, he's still better than McCain.
However, it is kinda weird in that it is hard to name a position where McCain has 'moved to the center' from the right . . . perhaps it was because he already was in the center mostly and had to move so far right in order to get the nomination. If he moves back, he opens himself up to (even more) flip-flop charges. Most of these Obama centrist views are centrist views he has pretty much always had.
Tamanon said:
How many times are we going to have a presidential candidate claim they're going to do something like that and then they don't do it? Hell, Bill Clinton campaigned on gays serving openly in the military before giving us that policy. I'm not saying Obama won't or can't do it, but Billy boy didn't do it with a Democratic congress in 1992, why should i believe Obama will do it in 2008?
Mercury Fred
Banned
Oh really, was she the one who wrote that legislation? People want it both ways with Hillary-- they want to damn her for the sins of her husband and say that since she was just first lady she had nothing to do with the good stuff. Which is it?Tamanon said:
Also, if Hillary were the nominee and was pulling the crap that Obama is pulling, I'd be just as (perhaps more) pissed.
Oh, and to be fair, I live in NYC so my not voting won't count for shit. I will admit it's something of a luxury to be able to skip voting for Obama. If I still lived in my home state of Ohio, I'd have to do some much more serious soul searching to make the same decision.
Mercury Fred said:
:lol
No.
Hillary was the one that wanted to take all of the good accomplishments during her husband's presidency and she always proclaimed that she was privately against all of his bad legislation.
Talk about a new era of spin there, bud.
Tamanon said:
Fair enough, really I'm not trying to argue it, I believe Obama, should he be elected, will probably end DADT, or at the very least remove it for non-combat personnel (since politics is ultimately about compromise), I just think that with certain pieces of legislation it's natural to be more skeptical about what can and cannot be accomplished.
speculawyer
Member
It really isn't a presidential issue other than a potential amendment and he's said he is against such an amendment. So he is pretty much dodging this issue. Why take a position if you don't have to? It is pretty clear that he is more pro-gay than McCain, so he doesn't gain anything by taking a strong pro-gay marriage position.Mercury Fred said:
Yeah, we are in general election 'triangulation' mode. Everyone does it. Both Bush and Gore did it in 2000. Blandness FTW!
Mercury Fred
Banned
He's not dodging. He said the day after California granted marriage equality that marriage was between a man and a woman. That's not dodging.speculawyer said:
But I do agree with the question "Why take a position if you don't have to?" Why the fuck did Obama open his mouth the next day to reiterate this right-wing talking point?
Mercury Fred
Banned
Fixed.Door2Dawn said:
Gaborn said:
In other cases, you'd be correct, but in this case you have a bill that a majority of Dems voted against(who would be overseers) and you have Republicans who would all unanimously oversee his use of the programs, because nothing spells no re-election like proven rights violations.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Actually, that's a good point.Gaborn said:
ToyMachine228
Member
Mercury Fred said:
Good luck. Your choice is between Obama and McCain not Obama and perfection. And staying home will do you a lot of good. The past 8-years have been great, let's continue!
Also, Obama is not opposed to gay marriage. He has said that he is opposed to the Marriage Defense Act, and believes gay marriage is a states right. So from what he's said he doesn't plan to attempt to legalize gay marriage, but he is going to protect it from being banned. I think legal gay marriage will start to spread state by state on it's own. California is making quite a splash and I expect other states to hop on sooner or later.
worldrunover
Member
If only we had a gay black Jew superman to run for president that would make us see all our biases as petty differences only skin deep, and everyone would all sit around a campfire singing fucking songs while they all got along with each other!1!!
Yes, gay rights are important to you. News flash: country and world are bigger than you. There are more things to be worried about and entrusting the right leader for the good of the whole is probably more important than you.
Probably.
Yes, gay rights are important to you. News flash: country and world are bigger than you. There are more things to be worried about and entrusting the right leader for the good of the whole is probably more important than you.
Probably.
worldrunover said:
The same is true of any particular issue. That doesn't mean someone disproportionately affected by a particular issue can't, or shouldn't express greater concern over a candidate. Though, personally I feel I've more than made my point on the issue as to why I believe Obama is fundamentally harmful to gays even though he's more positive towards us in his rhetoric.
worldrunover
Member
Door2Dawn said:
On a side note. Did you see how careful Matthews was about characterizing McCain's cigarette joke as "ITS JUST A JOKE GUYS" almost to try and make sure it didn't get out of control. Gotta wonder what would happen in Obama said it.
worldrunover
Member
Gaborn said:
But he can't POSSIBLY be more harmful than McCain. I would be shocked if Obama passed an amendment or something to that extreme.
Lv99 Slacker
Member
Mercury Fred said:
So, one of the reasons you're not voting for him is because he's recently publically restated a view he's always held? So, you'd be less reluctant to stay home if he had kept quiet on this?
Also guys, it's a waste of time to engage both Gaborn and Mercury on the the issue of gay marriage. They're all-or-nothing, throw the baby out with the bathwater, fuck incremental progress to gay rights extremists. In fact, Gaborn (and, I guess, MF as well) believes when it comes to gay marriage, it's best that McCain gets elected, because an Obama administration may kill the forward momentum on the issue by "pacifying" advocates by granting civil unions, ending DADT, ending employment discrimination, etc.
Mercury Fred
Banned
worldrunover said:
That's the point though, since you missed my discussion earlier I'll briefly restate it (and then move on to other issues) for more info though you can look at my past posts in this thread, it shouldn't be too far back that you find my comments. Essentially though, the problem I have with Obama is he supports and ADVOCATES for second class status in the form of civil unions, essentially 95%'ing us. I don't believe once civil unions are in place at the federal level there is going to be much of any impetus for marriage equality, it could delay gay marriage for 20 or 30 years longer than a McCain presidency (where he's not pro gay, would not enact civil unions but also would be unable to meaningfully ban gay marriage at a federal level) would, not that we'll get them tomorrow or anything, but I wouldn't be shocked if 10 or 15 years from now if Obama is NOT president we have marriage equality.
Essentially it comes down to some in the gay community being willing to live without federal benefits in the short term to achieve equality on every level in the long term.
That's the short version though, as I said you can look up the discussion in more detail if you wish.
Lv99 Slacker - I'm in favor of ending DADT, that would probably be one benefit of an Obama presidency. And I've always believed employers in a free society should have the right to discriminate, I simply believe it is irrational to do so and that employers will find more benefit ultimately in NOT doing so.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Yeah I want him to shut his fucking mouth the day after California instead of slapping gay and lesbian people across the face.Lv99 Slacker said:
I guess we should be good, docile faggots and dykes and be thankful when the force of hope and change deigns to consider us even remotely deserving of equal rights.
Particle Physicist
between a quark and a baryon
Mercury Fred said:
from the same exact interview::
obama's own personal belief is that marriage is between a man and woman. that stems from his religious background.. BUT, but still believes in equal rights regardless of his beliefs. how can you hold that against him???!
Mercury Fred
Banned
It was posted in response to someone's quote that Obama doesn't oppose same-sex marriage.quadriplegicjon said:
Separate isn't equal. And I want religion out of politics; it's quite easy to hold it against him.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Sorry to dirty it up with asking Obama for accountability.reilo said:
worldrunover
Member
Mercury Fred said:
Or you could define yourself by more than just your sexual orientation.
Gaborn: I understand your point, but there is still a threat of an amendment under McCain, which would have to be more damning to your cause than civil unions (which are not ideal but still moving in the right direction. Sort of). I would think an amendment is the end of the line for a much longer period of time.
Mercury Fred said:
No, you're dirtying it up with stupid nonsensical and factually inaccurate biases on a subject that was beaten to the ground ridiculously over and over again when there are some other important issues to talk about.
In other words, the world doesn't revolve around you and your issues.
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