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[mckmas8808]

Obama doesn't want them, McCain will make him look unexperienced which is why he has not accepted the town hall debate offers. Brokaw really pressed him on this on last Sunday's MTP.

:lol

 

[Gaborn]

Even if people have heard of the green party thanks to Nader... do you think that anyone who isn't a political junkie knows what the green party actually stands for? Even if people hear the name Libertarian, that doesn't mean they're going to actually know or care about what they stand for.

I'm honestly not trying to be mean, I'm just saying... considering the state of politics in America, to think that a party other than the GOP or Dems will actually get a lot of attention seems as far-fetched as Libertarianism itself.

I think it's going to be a long process. I agree with you it's not going to happen over night, but I don't think you can look at something as fundamental as a shift in American politics and think it's going to happen in a single election or over a period of a few years. I think Libertarianism has gotten a little bit higher profile, and it has been in the conversation a little more this election cycle than it has in previous years, I view that as a positive. Ron Paul, again a net positive for libertarians. I think Bob Barr will ultimately be another positive. You're right, most people won't care about him or libertarianism at all, assuming they even hear about either (if for example he is the margin of error in a surprise Obama victory in Georgia or North Carolina I suspect that WILL receive decent coverage), but right now it's all about small victories.

I think that ultimately to get people to adopt a political belief they have to FIRST hear that it exists, that real, credible, serious people (whether you'd vote for them personally or not) believe them and will talk about them. Therefore, I see a higher profile candidate like Barr as ultimately more useful than a candidate that is more ideologically pure like Badnarik or than a candidate that is fucking NUTS like Mary Ruwart.

 

[mckmas8808]

too soft

Here is a GAF screenplay

Show McCains first wife on wheel chair, explain her trajedy and just add her qoute: he left me after i got disfigured.

(Text: Would you trust this man to take care of us?)

slowly fade to black....

YO! That's the best thing PoliGaf could do. Then spread it to like 20 different message boards and email it to at least 10 people.

I love your idea.

 

[mckmas8808]

Obama would consider off-shore drilling as part of comprehensive energy plan
Friday, August 01, 2008



more at link

I like this idea. Obama needs to be open to some form of off-shore drilling to some extent. But I wouldn't do it unless damn near all of his goals are thrown in too.

 

[TDG]

Well, I see what you're saying, but I think that any attention that is called to the Libertarian Party will be short-lived. I mean, people talked a lot about the Green Party affecting the 2000 election, and that may have been a net gain for the Green Party, etc, but just 8 years later, is the green party better known? Has the green party reached more people? I don't really think so.

But, I suppose if the chips fall right, and the Libertarian Party gets some high-profile candidates, Libertarianism may make some headway. I guess it remains to be seen what will happen. It just seems far-fetched to me considering the history of politics in the U.S, the state of politics in the U.S, and the success extremist political philosophies.

 

[Gaborn]

Well, I see what you're saying, but I think that any attention that is called to the Libertarian Party will be short-lived. I mean, people talked a lot about the Green Party affecting the 2000 election, and that may have been a net gain for the Green Party, etc, but just 8 years later, is the green party better known? Has the green party reached more people? I don't really think so.

But, I suppose if the chips fall right, and the Libertarian Party gets some high-profile candidates, Libertarianism may make some headway. I guess it remains to be seen what will happen. It just seems far-fetched to me considering the history of politics in the U.S, the state of politics in the U.S, and the success extremist political philosophies.

Well, the thing is, if Nader had not been a green party candidate would Cynthia McKinney (who is obviously OMGWTFCRAZY for a variety of reasons but nonetheless) have considered being their candidate? It's all about baby steps and building credibility. It helps to have higher profile people associating with you, even if sometimes that means a crazy one slips in.

 

[SupahBlah]

It doesn't matter what Obama said about off shore drilling, his campaign should have realised his words are already getting destroyed to fit whatever the attack wants.

All they have to do now is post a video of him saying no to off shore drilling then the edit of him saying yes to off shore drilling.

There's your new McCain ad for Monday.

 

[mckmas8808]

I heard on NPR today that 60% of Floridians now support offshore drilling. I imagine that has a little to do with it.

I also think he's saying he's fine with throwing the GOP an offshore-drilling bone if it means the rest of an energy bill can get passed.

That's exactly what he is saying. And again some on GAF are freaking out. What do you guys think Obama meant when he said he was going to be a bipartisan leader?

 

[Suikoguy]

I like this idea. Obama needs to be open to some form of off-shore drilling to some extent. But I wouldn't do it unless damn near all of his goals are thrown in too.

Republicans are playing on American stupidity about Offshore drilling.
So, why not play it against them? They will need the democrats votes in order to get anything passed.

The fun (and sad) part is, if they vote against a compromise, it will be seen as voting against offshore drilling.. see where I'm going with this?

 

[Date of Lies]

Wait....the WSJ article on Obama being skinny actually used YAHOO MESSAGE POSTS as a source?:lol

Can't believe the WSJ wrote that.

 

[Hitokage]

Can't believe the WSJ wrote that.

Under new management!

 

[TDG]

Well, the thing is, if Nader had not been a green party candidate would Cynthia McKinney (who is obviously OMGWTFCRAZY for a variety of reasons but nonetheless) have considered being their candidate? It's all about baby steps and building credibility. It helps to have higher profile people associating with you, even if sometimes that means a crazy one slips in.

Well, that's why I said that things will have to go right for the party... if the Libertarian party continues to have good candidates and continues to make headway in elections and public awareness, then maybe the party will be able to become a viable 3rd party. But again, 3rd parties tend to fizzle out pretty quickly in the U.S, and considering how extreme Libertarianism is, I wouldn't expect it to have an easy road to becoming well-known, or popular. Even if Communism hadn't been demonized and mis-represented all through the 1900s, I think it would have the same troubles gaining supporters.

 

[mckmas8808]

Republicans are playing on American stupidity about Offshore drilling.
So, why not play it against them? They will need the democrats votes in order to get anything passed.

The fun (and sad) part is, if they vote against a compromise, it will be seen as voting against offshore drilling.. see where I'm going with this?

Heck yeah I do and that's what Tamron (sp wrong?) was saying a few post ago. And really why do so many liberals and other dems think off-shore oil drilling won't help America 5+ years later?

It's the stupidest thing to say imo. And if Obama has said that off-shore oil drilling will never help America then he is wrong. Lets put it this way. Bush kissed the Saudis ass for an extra 100 to 200 thousand extra barrels of oil a day.

Now I don't know if you guys now it or not but more supply equals lower prices and you better believe that those extra 200-400 thousand extra barrels of oil a day that the Saudis are exporting are keeping the price of gas lower than what it would be without it.

So if in the year 2016 America can pump out an extra 300,000 barrels of oil a day from off-shore oil drilling (WHILE KEEPING ALL OF IT IN AMERICA AND NOT EXPORTING IT) we can ween ourselves off of foreign oil while also using the alternative energy part of the same bill to ween ourselves off of oil all together.

To anybody that's against off-shore oil drilling and nuclear energy I ask you, do you really care about gas/energy prices and our economy?

 

[Hitokage]

300k barrels a day is a drop in the bucket, considering how America uses over 20 million a day. Also, higher demand brings higher prices, and global demand for oil has skyrocketed in the past decade, largely from India and China.


Get your numbers in line before getting indignant.

 

[Deus Ex Machina]

PHOTOS: BARACK OBAMA campaigns today in Florida--St. Pete, Orlando, Lakeland, Plant City

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., speaks at a campaign stop in Orlando, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., center, hugs supporters at a campaign stop in Orlando, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., right, talks to supporter Nora Travieso at a campaign stop in Orlando, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., center, poses with Polk County residents after a conversation on foreclosure crisis, Friday, Aug. 1, 2008, in Lakeland, Fla. From left are Adrianne Rebello, Scott Curnow, Sen. Obama, Chris Trevino and Marybell Malave. (AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., center, talks with Polk County residents at a trailer park in Lakeland, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., second from right, talks with a cashier as he visits Parkesdale Market in Plant City, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

A customer picks some peaches for Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., at Parkesdale Market in Plant City, Fla, Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., left. shares a laugh with a cashier as he buys some peaches at Parkesdale Market in Plant City, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008. (AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. answers an audience member's question, Friday, Aug. 1, 2008, during a town hall meeting in St. Petersburg, Fla. (AP Photo/Mike Carlson)

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. greets supporters, Friday, Aug. 1, 2008, following a town hall meeting in St. Petersburg, Fla.
(AP Photo/Mike Carlson)

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., shakes hands with supporters, Friday, Aug. 1,2008, at a town hall meeting in St. Petersburg, Fla.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidat Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. greets supporters after speaking at a town hall meeting in St. Petersburg, Fla., Friday, Aug. 1, 2008.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill. talks with Anne Kahana, 91, Friday, Aug. 1, 2008, at a town hall meeting in St. Petersburg, Fla.
(AP Photo/Jae C. Hong)

 

[Gaborn]

Well, that's why I said that things will have to go right for the party... if the Libertarian party continues to have good candidates and continues to make headway in elections and public awareness, then maybe the party will be able to become a viable 3rd party. But again, 3rd parties tend to fizzle out pretty quickly in the U.S, and considering how extreme Libertarianism is, I wouldn't expect it to have an easy road to becoming well-known, or popular. Even if Communism hadn't been demonized and mis-represented all through the 1900s, I think it would have the same troubles gaining supporters.

It's possible. The thing is though, even if you're right and the Libertarian party dies off, it may still accomplish moving one or both of the parties closer to a libertarian position. And ultimately, to me that's much more important. I think the Libertarian party is one clear vehicle towards libertarianism, but if the Dems can nominate candidates that are a little less trusting of executive authority and governmental power and/or the Republicans can shed their social conservatism and re-adopt fiscal conservatism to a greater degree I'll still take that as progress.

 

[mckmas8808]

300k barrels a day is a drop in the bucket, considering how America uses over 20 million a day. Also, higher demand brings higher prices, and global demand for oil has skyrocketed in the past decade, largely from India and China.

Get your numbers in line before getting indignant.

No the point is you can't keep saying 300k barrels a day doesn't matter, we won't get the oil until 2014 at the earliest, blah blah blah because then you look like the one that doesn't want to help the situation out.

Okay it may be 200k within the first 6 years, but maybe after 10 years it can be 450k a day and again according to Obama ALL of that would be coming straight to America so no more ass kissing the Saudis.

That alone makes me okay with some form off-shore oil drilling with alternative energy being the #1 focus of said bill.

 

[thefit]

Rolled up sleeves at the market! Ha, take that McCheeze!

 

[Hitokage]

You know, we don't have to kiss up to the Saudis...


...we could kiss up to the Russians.

 

[Door2Dawn]

You know, we don't have to kiss up to the Saudis...


...we could kiss up to the Russians.

Who wouldn't want to kiss up that?

 

[Tamanon]

No the point is you can't keep saying 300k barrels a day doesn't matter, we won't get the oil until 2014 at the earliest, blah blah blah because then you look like the one that doesn't want to help the situation out.

Okay it may be 200k within the first 6 years, but maybe after 10 years it can be 450k a day and again according to Obama ALL of that would be coming straight to America so no more ass kissing the Saudis.

That alone makes me okay with some form off-shore oil drilling with alternative energy being the #1 focus of said bill.

The problem is that most of the same people pushing for more off-shore drilling are also against restricting it to domestic sales only. Plus, it really won't do much at all to curb foreign oil's impact on the market unless we really drastically lower demand.

 

[mckmas8808]

Rolled up sleeves at the market! Ha, take that McCheeze!

Is the McCain campaign going to say that Obama is copying them?

 

[Stinkles]

Under new management!

I still think it's supposed to be satire. Seriously. A light hearted swipe at other stories of that ilk.

 

[mckmas8808]

The problem is that most of the same people pushing for more off-shore drilling are also against restricting it to domestic sales only. Plus, it really won't do much at all to curb foreign oil's impact on the market unless we really drastically lower demand.

That's a good thing. Tamanon my man, can you honestly see the Republicans arguying on TV day in and day out about why they won't sign a bill that allows off-shore oil drilling because they are pissed that Americans get America oil and the foreigners don't get enough?

Seriously!? Think about that for a second. How will the republicans tell the same people that want offshore oil drilling that they voted against it because we are keeping too much of our own oil?

And I agree with the lower demand bit. That's what the alternative energy part in Obama's bill would try to help in the future. The thing is we will never get that part of the bill if Obama and some dems don't concede to anything.

Obama people shouldn't be pissed at this. You get what you want (alternative energy passed finally after 35 years) while our country depends less on foreign oil.

 

[TDG]

Well Gaborn, considering U.S. politics tend to shift right and left over time, I suppose it's possible that the political parties may embrace Libertarianism, though it's unlikely due to the extremist nature of Libertarianism. And of course, I'd expect the pendelum to swing back to the left.

Of course, I certainly don't want Libertarianism to be embraced by any major political parties, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Gaborn]

Indeed TDG, we can only watch to see what develops.

 

[Mandark]

If offshore drilling is the bargaining chip that allows a good energy bill to pass, so be it.

But on its own it's bad policy and does nothing to wean the US off foreign oil.

Remember, as long as a very large chunk of oil used in the US is imported, the US market will be vulnerable to global price shocks. Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, or whoever could hit the US economy by cutting production. A war in the ME could produce similar results.

American politicians know this, which is why US policy is to prop up governments that keep the oil flowing, no matter how repulsive and undemocratic they are. Y halo thar Saudi Arabia! Indirectly, it's why we're in Iraq.

Not in a "we stole their oil!" way a la the wackier protesters. But Saddam's play at controlling the gulf's oil reserves is what made him a major antagonist for over a decade. A podunk dictator in a less strategically valuable region doesn't get that treatment.

Which is why a lot of people use the phrase "strategic energy independence". Going from ~60% imported to ~55% (which is itself a generous estimate of what more drilling could do) does nothing to accomplish the goal of "telling Saudi Arabia to kiss off."

The amount the US can produce is ultimately limited and way below current demand. The only way to rely on domestic oil is to drastically cut consumption.

The GOP demagoguing this issue and campaigning against every sensible long term consideration would piss me off a lot more if I expected anything better for them.

 

[thekad]

What provisions are the Dems planning to tack on to this compromise bill? Speculation better be on the agenda.

 

[Mandark]

Paul Krugman and some other smart people who I'm apt to trust say that speculation isn't the problem.

 

[Eric P]

You know, we don't have to kiss up to the Saudis...


...we could kiss up to the Russians.

or we could kiss up to the canadians

and by kiss up i mean sign a trade agreement which states that we get oil from them forever, even if they themselves fall into an oil crisis.

 

[Tamanon]

Obviously we just need to invade Iran. I think that anthrax was from there after all!

 

[sprsk]

I think I'm getting election fatigue already.

 

[thekad]

Paul Krugman and some other smart people who I'm apt to trust say that speculation isn't the problem.

So that means there is no short-term relief. Awesome!

Though what was with that congressional hearing where those supposed experts proffered that eliminating speculation would cut prices in half? Exaggerated perhaps, but I would be apt to trust people in the field.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Furthermore, a big reason (from what I can tell, this is just me looking at some financial sheets in google) they really want drilling authorized is so that their donors-the big petroleoum conglomerates-will be able to claim the oil held by the leases (unused or not, even if they never intend to use it) as part of their reported reserves on their balance sheets. This makes the company look better when compared to other multinational corporations and helps their stock valuations.

Which in turn makes mad money for their investors and the company executives.

The "must sell it in the United States" provision is a cute little attempt at a flank on the whole ball of wax, but I don't think they care much about drilling for it at all in the short term, and they have plenty of time to see if the United States is really changing their ways well in advance of actually spending much money on infrastructure to drill.

Paul Krugman and some other smart people who I'm apt to trust say that speculation isn't the problem.

Speculation is causing higher oil prices, but the actual root of the problem isn't the oil speculators, rather the reasoning behind why they are running up the price in oil instead of other investment vehicles in the first place.

Edit: Also, Obama is a weak capitulator whose cowardice to properly exploit his opponent's massive character and policy should cost him the election, if not for the wonderful fact that America would rather be governed by a bottle of toilet cleaner than the Republican Party.

 

[Tamanon]

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/01...led-on-the-surge-to-control-inner-city-crime/

Today, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) spoke to the National Urban League, a group “devoted to empowering African Americans to enter the economic and social mainstream.” When an audience member asked him how he planned to reduce urban crime, McCain praised Mayor Rudy Giuliani’s efforts in New York Cirty before invoking the military’s tactics in Iraq as the model for crime-fighting:

MCCAIN: And some of those tactics — you mention the war in Iraq — are like that we use in the military. You go into neighborhoods, you clamp down, you provide a secure environment for the people that live there, and you make sure that the known criminals are kept under control. And you provide them with a stable environment and then they cooperate with law enforcement, etc, etc.

Well.....that's a really scary quote.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I think I'm getting election fatigue already.

I just went through and deleted all but a couple of my political site book marks. Politico, First Read, the blogs - nuked'em. I've gotten fatigue as well. I'm sticking to fivethirtyeight and occasional poligaf for a while. All the nastiness from McCain and the astounding idiocy of the media is a bit much. I'll tune back in after the conventions.

 

[Smiles and Cries]

I think I'm getting election fatigue already.

there

 

[WickedAngel]

No the point is you can't keep saying 300k barrels a day doesn't matter, we won't get the oil until 2014 at the earliest, blah blah blah because then you look like the one that doesn't want to help the situation out.

Okay it may be 200k within the first 6 years, but maybe after 10 years it can be 450k a day and again according to Obama ALL of that would be coming straight to America so no more ass kissing the Saudis.

That alone makes me okay with some form off-shore oil drilling with alternative energy being the #1 focus of said bill.

What in the Hell do you think is going to be done by OPEC after we hit peak production and still have to export at least 65% of our oil from overseas? They're going to think up some way to scare up prices to make up that 35% that we saved. We have no control over what they do; no matter what, we need them until we find an energy source that requires nothing to be imported in terms of energy.

 

[Hootie]

I think I'm getting election fatigue already.

I was absolutely burnt out by the end of the Primaries...I left PoliGAF for a few weeks but now I'm back. But from what I've seen from McCain so far I'm already getting sick of it again.

I just want this shit to be over with ASAP.

 

[Mandark]

thekad: Not all those guys were experts in the relevant fields. At least one was a big oil shill happy to pass responsibility for high prices on to someone else.

Krugman's argument is basically that if speculation were happening, people would be buying oil and holding it to sell later and that's not happening. If the price is higher than supply/demand would dictate, then oil companies couldn't sell through everything they pump.


Frag: I think you're a wee bit trapped in your own narrative right now vis Obama.


Everyone getting election fatigue: Go read about The Issues and educate yourself instead of following the daily stories as pushed by cable news. It would be a wonderful and productive way to spend that time and energy. </Condescension>

 

[Tamanon]

I'm getting pretty burnt out myself. It gets kinda annoying seeing talk about issues and such in town halls or whatnot, new policies being rolled out and discussed and then not even talked about in the media.

Luckily, football season is starting up soon!

 

[Hootie]

The day by day stuff right now is forgettable, but I believe once the VPs are chosen and the debates start up, shit will get real.

Luckily, football season is starting up soon!

Oh god yes. I'm fapping at the thought of finally seeing the Pats play after......grrrrrr.

 

[Karma Kramer]

Burnt out?

Fuck no... this shit is getting fucking exciting as shit. I can't believe the campaigns are this heated already. Imagine October!

 

[thefit]

Been burnt out for a while myself. I wonder if the rest of the public feels the same and if so is McCain wasting money and breath on deaf ears.

 

[titiklabingapat]

Everyone should take a break since the Olympics are starting soon anyway.

After the convention is when the shit will really hit the fan.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Everyone getting election fatigue: Go read about The Issues and educate yourself instead of following the daily stories as pushed by cable news. It would be a wonderful and productive way to spend that time and energy. </Condescension>

What do you recommend?

 

[Hootie]

I think I'm going to go watch Obama's Iowa speech right now. That night was so epic, with Obama winning and Hilldawg coming in 3rd? Nevar forget.

 

[DrForester]

slightly off topic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25935768/

Luke Russert, whose eloquent eulogy for his father, the late NBC News journalist Tim Russert, moved many Americans last month, will join the network as a correspondent, NBC News announced Thursday.

Russert, 22, a May graduate of Boston College with a degree in history and communications, will cover the youth vote through the national political conventions and the general election, the network said. Russert said he would be an at-large correspondent reporting for many of NBC’s outlets, including “NBC Nightly News,” TODAY, MSNBC and msnbc.com.

NBC News made the announcement in rolling out its plans for more than 200 hours of live coverage of the Democratic and Republican national conventions next month.

 

[Mandark]

What do you recommend?

Magazine features (Washington Monthly, The American Prospect, even the liberal New Republic, etc.), think tanks (Brookings, Center for American Progress, Economic Policy Institute), books if you want to really go crazy.

Figure out something you're interested in, or a prominent topic you want to get some background on, then google away, maybe using those places as starting points.





I try not to lecture people on watching cable news (chacon a son gout) but if you're going to invest time and energy following politics, at least some of it might as well go towards what makes politics important, which is the ultimate effect on people.

 

[Hootie]

slightly off topic:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25935768/

Definitely not off-topic, though I believe Olbermann mentioned this either Wednesday or Thursday in his Best Person's bit.