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PoliGAF Interim Thread of USA General Elections (DAWN OF THE VEEP)

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A

AniHawk

Member
mckmas8808 said:
OK so FoxNews is really pushing this BS story about Obama wanting to kill babies that were born (even after an abortion was attempted).

They said over and over that Obama voted against the bill to save babies and that Obama wanted to kill live babies.

Think it will hurt Obama?
Click to expand...

Maybe if every news network starts saying it.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
laserbeam said:
It could if they hammer it enough. Did they mention the story out of Israel today of the aborted baby found alive in the Morgue 5 hours later after being declared dead? Stuff like that will impact peoples views and opinions
Click to expand...


So should the opposite news about women dying because of child birth be brought to the national scene too?
 
V

ViperVisor

Member
Hannity and the fellow dillweeds have been on that story forever. Obama is Pro Choice but tries to find some compromise on late-term ones. The nonsense is not gonna have any effect where the macro differences are obvious.

McCain picking Ridge is the best thing for Obama when it comes to abortion. Whatever Ridge says in deferring to McCain's Pro Life view isn't good enough for the crazies.
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
So should the opposite news about women dying because of child birth be brought to the national scene too?
Click to expand...

Thats a tough one to nswer although the difficulty of child birth is well known. That Israel story is an odd one because the baby was "aborted" due to medical reasons.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
laserbeam said:
Thats a tough one to nswer although the difficulty of child birth is well known. That Israel story is an odd one because the baby was "aborted" due to medical reasons.
Click to expand...


Do you know the medical reasons? How bad were they?
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
Do you know the medical reasons? How bad were they?
Click to expand...

Hmm the story has changed since looking at it earlier. They removed all mention of the issue it was something with bleeding in the womb or something and the child had to be aborted. Now they are just saying she has a miscarriage.

I suspect they are covering up details considering how edited the story is now
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
mckmas8808 said:
OK so FoxNews is really pushing this BS story about Obama wanting to kill babies that were born (even after an abortion was attempted).

They said over and over that Obama voted against the bill to save babies and that Obama wanted to kill live babies.
Click to expand...
What part of it do you think is BS? I'm not watching Fox News, but there is some truth to the claim, although I suspect Fox is sensationalizing it to the hilt.

The Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act basically provided that infants, once they're outside of the mother and have either a heartbeat or voluntary muscle movement, have the same rights as all other people. These rights are transfered regardless of age of the fetus/infant or the reason it was expelled from the mother.

While there was a partial birth abortion angle to it, there was also testimony regarding severally deformed infants being "shelved," born and then left to die.

In 2001, Obama voted against the bill in committee and "present" when it came to the Illinois Senate floor. He felt it would be interpreted to extend rights to previable fetuses even during a normal abortion and because it would be found unconstitutional due to a minor wording change from a similar law that had been held constitutional.

At later times, he voted against an amendment that would've corrected the wording change, and in 2002, voted against the bill in both committee and the floor. In 2003, when he chaired the committee the bill was assigned to, he left it to die in committee.

The story's been out there for a while, I mean besides when it happened. It got a little play in the Obama/Keyes US Senate race, but it didn't get much traction. I've kinda been wondering why the pro-life groups hadn't been pushing it, well... at all.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
I'm convinced now that the Obama campaign is feeding the media exactly the names they want to feed them. No one knows anything yet every media outlet keeps relaying the same 4 names from their "sources", which generally is a sign of similar (or even the same source) giving names to everyone. If true that likely means the Obama campaign is trying to control the speculation and gauge people's reactions for a couple names.

Biden, Sebelius, Bayh or Kaine: it's going to be one of those four.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
grandjedi6 said:
I'm convinced now that the Obama campaign is feeding the media exactly the names they want to feed them. No one knows anything yet every media outlet keeps relaying the same 4 names from their "sources", which generally is a sign of similar (or even the same source) giving names to everyone. If true that likely means the Obama campaign is trying to control the speculation and gauge people's reactions for a couple names.

Biden, Sebelius, Bayh or Kaine: it's going to be one of those four.
Click to expand...
I too read the fivethirtyeight column, and agree. :p

I think it's going to be Sebelius.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Squirrel Killer said:
What part of it do you think is BS? I'm not watching Fox News, but there is some truth to the claim, although I suspect Fox is sensationalizing it to the hilt.

The Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act basically provided that infants, once they're outside of the mother and have either a heartbeat or voluntary muscle movement, have the same rights as all other people. These rights are transfered regardless of age of the fetus/infant or the reason it was expelled from the mother.

While there was a partial birth abortion angle to it, there was also testimony regarding severally deformed infants being "shelved," born and then left to die.

In 2001, Obama voted against the bill in committee and "present" when it came to the Illinois Senate floor. He felt it would be interpreted to extend rights to previable fetuses even during a normal abortion and because it would be found unconstitutional due to a minor wording change from a similar law that had been held constitutional.

At later times, he voted against an amendment that would've corrected the wording change, and in 2002, voted against the bill in both committee and the floor. In 2003, when he chaired the committee the bill was assigned to, he left it to die in committee.

The story's been out there for a while, I mean besides when it happened. It got a little play in the Obama/Keyes US Senate race, but it didn't get much traction. I've kinda been wondering why the pro-life groups hadn't been pushing it, well... at all.
Click to expand...

I have a question for you that I've seen raised. What if that baby that went through attempted abortion still has a beating heart, yet doesn't have many other body features to actually live any life what so ever?

What happens if that baby would have to live on a machine for the rest of it's life due to unformed body parts? What happens if the baby dies while hooked up to these machines? Would that be the doctor's fault? Would it be the hospital's fault? Could anybody sue in this case?
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
I hadn't heard of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, so I did some searching. Here's Obama's comment on it recently:

Well and because they have not been telling the truth. And I hate to say that people are lying, but here's a situation where folks are lying. I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say --that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level. What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade. By the way, we also had a bill, a law already in place in Illinois that insured life saving treatment was given to infants.

So for people to suggest that I and the Illinois medical society, so Illinois doctors were somehow in favor of withholding life saving support from an infant born alive is ridiculous. It defies commonsense and it defies imagination and for people to keep on pushing this is offensive and it's an example of the kind of politics that we have to get beyond. It's one thing for people to disagree with me about the issue of choice, it's another thing for people to out and out misrepresent my positions repeatedly, even after they know that they're wrong. And that's what's been happening.
Click to expand...
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/429328.aspx
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
mckmas8808 said:
I have a question for you that I've seen raised. What if that baby that went through attempted abortion still has a beating heart, yet doesn't have many other body features to actually live any life what so ever?

What happens if that baby would have to live on a machine for the rest of it's life due to unformed body parts? What happens if the baby dies while hooked up to these machines? Would that be the doctor's fault? Would it be the hospital's fault? Could anybody sue in this case?
Click to expand...
My understanding is that such a situation would fall under the same laws as a terminal patient, that is, a legal guardian could turn off life support. If someone died while hooked up to a machine, well... patients die. As for, malpractice and potential lawsuits, those are always possibilities.

The outrage, IIRC (I'm remembering this part from the '04 race), was that some deformed, but viable fetuses/infants were born and then "shelved" to die.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Squirrel Killer said:
My understanding is that such a situation would fall under the same laws as a terminal patient, that is, a legal guardian could turn off life support. If someone died while hooked up to a machine, well... patients die. As for, malpractice and potential lawsuits, those are always possibilities.

The outrage, IIRC (I'm remembering this part from the '04 race), was that some deformed, but viable fetuses/infants were born and then "shelved" to die.
Click to expand...


So the question still remains. Did the mother or legal guardian want the baby?
 
L

laserbeam

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
So the question still remains. Did the mother or legal guardian want the baby?
Click to expand...
I think this moves into a very complicated territory. Abortion arguement is its a womans body but in this case the children were born then left to die. By being Born that means it's no longer the womans body.

Medical care is denied these babies so they suffocate or other methods of death. That is a violation of that persons right to life even if they are an infant.
 
S

speculawyer

Member
McCain camp accuses NBC of partisan coverage

By Paul J. Gough Mon Aug 18, 8:51 PM ET

NEW YORK (Hollywood Reporter) - The John McCain campaign fired off an angry letter to NBC News criticizing Andrea Mitchell's comments regarding the "cone of silence" at Saturday night's presidential candidates' forum at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California.

Campaign manager Rick Davis cited Mitchell's comments on NBC's "Meet the Press" that the Barack Obama campaign had said privately that they believed McCain "may have had some ability to overhear what the questions were to Obama. He seemed so well prepared."

Pastor Rick Warren on Saturday sat down first with Obama and asked him the same questions he would later ask McCain.

Davis denied what he called "a completely unsubstantiated Obama campaign claim that John McCain somehow cheated." While Obama was being interviewed, McCain was driving to the event and then in a green room without TV, Davis said.
Click to expand...

So Obama has a News network running 24 hour coverage about how he is a baby-killer and how he has a pakistani drug dealer . . . and McCain cries about some guy questioning whether he overheard something. Sheesh.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
speculawyer said:
So Obama has a News network running 24 hour coverage about how he is a baby-killer and how he has a pakistani drug dealer . . . and McCain cries about some guy questioning whether he overheard something. Sheesh.
Click to expand...
The real sad part is, in their vitriolic response, they also admitted that McCain wasn't in the "cone of silence" (WTF does that even mean) the entire time. So they're attacking her for...being correct. As they said on Countdown tonight, that means the first words out of McCain's mouth when he came on stage was a lie.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
laserbeam said:
I think this moves into a very complicated territory. Abortion arguement is its a womans body but in this case the children were born then left to die. By being Born that means it's no longer the womans body.

Medical care is denied these babies so they suffocate or other methods of death. That is a violation of that persons right to life even if they are an infant.
Click to expand...


Then who keeps these babies? Where will they stay? And will some doctors purposely screw up an abortion just to save some lives? If they do should any punishment happen to the doctor that makes the kid live without their full body parts?
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I hadn't heard of the Born Alive Infant Protection Act, so I did some searching. Here's Obama's comment on it recently:
Well and because they have not been telling the truth. And I hate to say that people are lying, but here's a situation where folks are lying. I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say --that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level. What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade. By the way, we also had a bill, a law already in place in Illinois that insured life saving treatment was given to infants.

So for people to suggest that I and the Illinois medical society, so Illinois doctors were somehow in favor of withholding life saving support from an infant born alive is ridiculous. It defies commonsense and it defies imagination and for people to keep on pushing this is offensive and it's an example of the kind of politics that we have to get beyond. It's one thing for people to disagree with me about the issue of choice, it's another thing for people to out and out misrepresent my positions repeatedly, even after they know that they're wrong. And that's what's been happening.
Click to expand...

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/429328.aspx
Click to expand...
(my emp.)

The thing is he chaired the committee that blocked the federal language from being adopted in the 2003 bill that died in committee. And while I know he's a constitutional professor and all, I just don't see, even with his explanation, how the bill would've undermined Roe v. Wade. The federal law pre-dated the Illinois bill and the Illinois law passed in 2005, yet I don't see Roe having been undermined by either to date.

On the other hand, I haven't seen the people pushing this story respond to Obama's pointing out that a law insured life saving treatment to infants. It seems that should be enough to address the situation, unless there's some sort of loophole that the Born Alive Infant Protection Act closed. I guess I'd like to see an explanation of how, with the existence of such a law, did hospitals' Comfort Rooms pass legal muster?

Personally, I'm undecided who's right in this, but this is exactly the type of debate I love to see. We're talking about actual votes about real, if sensationalized, issues. You can go read the actual text he voted on. It's no puffery "I support education!" It's concrete data. At least it's not the goddamned cost of candidates loafers.
 
Squirrel Killer

Squirrel Killer

Member
mckmas8808 said:
So the question still remains. Did the mother or legal guardian want the baby?
Click to expand...
We're talking about a bill that applies to all instances of this type of situation. There is no one mother or legal guardian that wants/doesn't want the infant/fetus, although I would assume most people in this type of situation don't want the infant/fetus.
 
mckmas8808

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Squirrel Killer said:
We're talking about a bill that applies to all instances of this type of situation. There is no one mother or legal guardian that wants/doesn't want the infant/fetus, although I would assume most people in this type of situation don't want the infant/fetus.
Click to expand...


That's the only thing I can think of that he might have felt underminded Roe vs. Wade. Doctors purposefully not killing babies just so the hospital can keep them alive. If that were to happen that should be a problem for the doctor.

And I agree with you this is something that should be looked at honestly and with an open mind. And like you said those opposing Obama aren't talking about the law that already existed. They are acting like nothing existed.

And on Fox News tonight they "said" that the state and federal bills were "EXACTLY" the same bill. Which the facts don't support. They weren't the same bill. Darn near everybody knows that.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
A bit off-topic, but I sent Dan Abrams a scathing e-mail for Contesa Brewer spoiling the Olympic results for us West coast viewers. Way to rub it in our face. If Dan mentions this tomorrow in his PO'ed box, you'll know it's from me.

Anyway, I'm pulling for Biden. He was actually my first choice in the presidential primaries. So him and Obama would be my dream ticket.

I DO NOT want Bayh. He is ALL wrong on foreign policy. If Obama can forgive Bayh for his vote/decision/judgment for aggressively supporting the Iraq war, then how can Obama lambaste John McCain for doing the very same thing in the next sentence? Republicans will have no problems pointing this out. He basically would be giving McCain a free pass for voting and supporting the war early on. Obama will seriously devalue his judgment argument by picking Bayh. He might as well give up making any inroads on the foreign policy front.

I'd like to see:
Biden >>> Kain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hilary>Bayh
 
S

Sleeker

Member
GhaleonEB said:
Wow. They're literally running with "Obama kills babies" now. And we've still got 2 1/2 months to go!
Click to expand...

Is this an act of kitchen-sinking or is this just common procedure at this point in a fed election?
 
V

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Dammit, it's going to be Biden. :(

I really didn't like any of the candidates the media is saying are the frontrunners, anyway, but I just dislike Biden every time I've heard him talk. I'm gonna go read up on him and see if I can come to terms with it.
 
J

JayDubya

Banned
mckmas8808 said:
Then who keeps these babies? Where will they stay? And will some doctors purposely screw up an abortion just to save some lives?
Click to expand...

I doubt it. You think an abortionist is going to suddenly grow a conscience and risk their livelihood? It's not like most doctors will perform those.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
VanMardigan said:
Dammit, it's going to be Biden. :(

I really didn't like any of the candidates the media is saying are the frontrunners, anyway, but I just dislike Biden every time I've heard him talk. I'm gonna go read up on him and see if I can come to terms with it.
Click to expand...
Whaaa? He is VERY liberal and incredibly charismatic. What isn't to like about him?

Mark Halperins page this morning:
Say It Is So, Joe

bidenmontage.jpg

Foreign Relations, Judiciary, debater, speechifier.
Bo knows…the pick.
Developing...
 
V

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Cheebs said:
But you supported Obama? He was the more liberal option compared to Hillary.
Click to expand...

Well, there are other factors, of course. My only worry now is that he didn't pick a less liberal candidate for folks who don't lean too far left.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
I'm still not sure if it will happen, but lets be honest guys, Biden is the safest pick. Sebulius would anger the Hillary crew and has been fading lately. Picking either Bayh and Kaine would have disasterious effects on their state Democratic parties. Bayh is boring and contridicts Obama's Iraq stance while Kaine probably couldn't even carry Virginia. Biden though is as safe (and neutral) pick as you can get. Which might really be the best choice considering the political climate.
 
S

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
the best part about this whole charade is that once the VP pick is made, and after the media and partisan supporters erupt, this will ultimately change nothing.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
I see Richardson's name being thrown in the mix still........
Click to expand...
I haven't. He is only as a dark horse longshot. And there is NO WAY he'd pass vetting, he has a womanizing problem. Obama's team would never take a chance on that.
 
G

grandjedi6

Master of the Google Search
Cheebs said:
I haven't. He is only as a dark horse longshot. And there is NO WAY he'd pass vetting, he has a womanizing problem. Obama's team would never take a chance on that.
Click to expand...

While I doubt it will be Richardson too I don't think you have enough information to declare Richardson impossible to vett nor to validate his womanizing problem.. well unless.... :p
 
C

Cheebs

Member
grandjedi6 said:
While I doubt it will be Richardson too I don't think you have enough information to declare Richardson impossible to vett nor to validate his womanizing problem.. well unless.... :p
Click to expand...
He has women accuse him of stuff in the past....
 
T

tanod

when is my burrito
Deus Ex Machina said:
not going to happen. His pick will be not be anyone that could out stage him. And it will be Governor.
Click to expand...

Biden has a big mouth but he's not going to upstage Obama. I don't think there is anybody that can when Obama's at his best.
 
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