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PoliGAF Thread of PRESIDENT OBAMA Checkin' Off His List

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bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
APF said:
So... Byrd and the Dixiecrats who lay with him are covered in fleas?
If you want to make the analogy of his apology being flea shampoo, then sure. Byrd himself alluded to the difficulty involved in repudiating his previously held views in several interviews and his autobiography. It's not something you can just shake off - that taint sticks with you for life.

That said, taking responsibility for reprehensible past associations and working to help heal those divisive attitudes go a long way in judging a man's character. There's lies the difference - the Klan Dixiecrat apologizes without reservation and spends the rest of his life trying to make some sort of amends, and Trent Lott and his fellow Republicans apologize for anyone "they may have offended" before running right back for additional exposure to political herpes.
 

JayDubya

Banned
I.F. said:
Can someone explain the white hands ad to me? I honestly cannot see how it's an example of political "Dog-Whistling." There is no need to imply anything when the policy it is describing is awful in and of itself. What else is there to hide behind "code"?

The ad is explicitly about racial quotas, as well. There's not much potential for "code" there.
 

adg1034

Member
I.F. said:
Can someone explain the white hands ad to me? I honestly cannot see how it's an example of political "Dog-Whistling." There is no need to imply anything when the policy it is describing is awful in and of itself. What else is there to hide behind "code"?

It invokes a "Black people are taking your jobs, good hard-working white North Carolinians, and now, they're coming after mine!" mentality. It's also carefully worded to appeal to both people who are against affirmative action in the workplace and people who have racist tendencies.
 

APF

Member
bishoptl said:
If you want to make the analogy of his apology being flea shampoo, then sure. Byrd himself alluded to the difficulty involved in repudiating his previously held views in several interviews and his autobiography. It's not something you can just shake off - that taint sticks with you for life.

That said, taking responsibility for reprehensible past associations and working to help heal those divisive attitudes go a long way in judging a man's character. There's lies the difference - the Klan Dixiecrat apologizes without reservation and spends the rest of his life trying to make some sort of amends, and Trent Lott and his fellow Republicans apologize for anyone "they may have offended" before running right back for additional exposure to political herpes.
I'm still having difficulty gathering the sides of your argument here. Lott apologized, Byrd apologized. Byrd's transgressions were a lot worse than Lott's. Lott was forced into bending himself over backwards--and losing his position as Majority Leader--in apology, largely due to backlash within his own party. Yet Lott's comment is irrevocable and Byrd's history is forgivable.
 
charlequin said:
Context (embedded in a relatively nonsense race-baiting blogpost) here. She's explicitly responding to a quote by Sandra Day O'Connor claiming that a wise man and woman should reach the same conclusion in any given case (something I'd already disagree with) and seems to me to be suggesting that someone with life experience relevant to a given case would make a better ruling, rather than that a "wise Latina woman" would automatically make a superior ruling to a white man in every imaginable case.
Unfortunately, I think you might be giving her the benefit of the doubt. Her use of "I would hope..." gives her a little wiggle room, but in context, she doesn't limit the "better conclusion" that the Latina female would reach due to her "richer" life experience as you suggest.

I don't know about the O'Connor claim. I think if I abstracted it a bit, I would agree with it, perhaps something along the lines of, "a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same the same level of justice in deciding cases." I mean, plenty of old, wise, white, privileged men haven't reached the same conclusion, why should a wise woman be any different. And as such, while I recognize the richness of the Latina woman's life, I also recognize the richness of the white man's life, and the richness of the Asian transsexual's life, etc...
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Part of the problem here is the attempt to equivocate which party has more elected individuals that have made racist gaffes when the issue is, as pointed out by bishoptl earlier, a systemic use of racial bating and racist policies by the Republican party.

Pointing out that there may also be Democratic bigots (and clearly there are) is avoiding the point. To put this into actual context for the day, the issue came up as both the potential reasoning behind her selection and the issues which Republicans will key on against her are the same: race.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Religion and the Court

Whether or not Sotomayor would be the first Hispanic Justice on the Supreme Court she would be the sixth Catholic currently serving on the current Court, which is perhaps best to say quietly extraordinary, given that as recently as few decades ago they were comparatively rare. A recent Pew poll says that 31.4% of U.S. adults say they were raised Catholic and 23.9% consider themselves Catholic. (There was some question about whether Sotomayor was a practicing or lapsed Catholic. But Steve Waldman says she's practicing.)

And one other factoid. If Sotomayor is confirmed, the Court would have six Roman Catholics, two Jews and one Protestant -- and that, the oldest, John Paul Stevens.

(ed.note: This post has some good history of Catholics serving on the Court. For the first Catholic to serve on the Court you've got to go all the way back to Chief Justice Roger Taney (appointed by Andrew Jackson). But only 11 Roman Catholics have ever been appointed to the Court -- and five of those are currently serving.)

--Josh Marshall
 
PantherLotus said:
I think you're confusing "the Left's" attacks on Bush after he was years into the worst presidency in history and the most corrupt VP in history, which were comments made by political outsiders (think protesters), with the intended and submersive messages that elected Republicans use to sully the reputation of individuals using sexist and racist innuendo.

No, both parties, DON'T DO IT! That's absurd and I ask you to point to an example of multiple elected officials claiming Bush was Hitleresque. Ever.

Also, acknowledging that you were party to, or at least supported at the time, the most historically damaging President our country has ever known does not give you the power to claim that "both sides do it." That's absurd.

As I have shown, both parties do it in terms of throw out accusations, sexist and racial epithets. You may argue that one is worse than the other, I would argue they are both just as guilty.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
PantherLotus said:
Not sure if you guys caught this earlier, but I just remembered Chris Matthew's question from this morning:

"Is this a way of changing the current political conversation from Torture and Cheney?"





If not, it's certainly effective for doing just that. Who will hold the torch of liberty into this horribly dark issue? Will this just fizzle out? I'm afraid it will.


Why would Obama want the public and media to not talk about torture and Cheney?
 
mckmas8808 said:
Why would Obama want the public and media to not talk about torture and Cheney?

Pelosi saying the CIA deceived and lied. Also talking about Guantanamo when the head of the FBI said it would be dangerous to bring prisoners onto US land even though that is what Obama is trying to do.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
John Yoo Warns Against "Results-Oriented" Sotomayor
By Eric Kleefeld - May 26, 2009, 2:49PM

John Yoo, the former Justice Department official who helped craft the legal rationales for the Bush Administration's "enhanced interrogation" regime, has come out strongly against Sonia Sotomayor -- on the grounds that she could decide cases on the basis of outcomes rather than the law:

Conservatives should defend the Supreme Court as a place where cases are decided by a faithful application of the Constitution, not personal politics, backgrounds, and feelings. Republican senators will have to conduct thorough questioning in the confirmation hearings to make sure that she will not be a results-oriented voter, voting her emotions and politics rather than the law.
In other breaking news, John Yoo has absolutely no sense of self-awareness.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have our first gender-based attack. Congratulations!
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
LovingSteam said:
Pelosi saying the CIA deceived and lied. Also talking about Guantanamo when the head of the FBI said it would be dangerous to bring prisoners onto US land even though that is what Obama is trying to do.


But Obama has more people in high positions in Gov't that think closing it would be a good idea. Along with the majority of the public.

So again, why wouldn't Obama want the convo to continue?
 

GhaleonEB

Member
mckmas8808 said:
Why would Obama want the public and media to not talk about torture and Cheney?
Is this a rhetorical question? Obama has made it explicit that he considers the entire torture issue to be a distraction to his domestic agenda. He wants to - partially - air out the dirty laundry, reverse the policy, and close Gitmo. But otherwise move on.

That said, I don't think the court announcement is a distraction. It's happening when he signaled it was going to happen, because he wants the new Justice seated by the time the court convenes in October.
LovingSteam said:
Pelosi saying the CIA deceived and lied. Also talking about Guantanamo when the head of the FBI said it would be dangerous to bring prisoners onto US land even though that is what Obama is trying to do.
:lol :lol :lol
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
Well said, GhaleonEB.

mckmas8808 said:
Why would Obama want the public and media to not talk about torture and Cheney?

That was precisely the response and why the idea is basically rejected. Any time you get Obama and Cheney side-by-side making constitutional arguments, the Republican party loses. Every time you get the not-so-subtle reminder that Cheney is the tottering spine of the Republican party, conservatives lose.

So, great point. Perhaps the question had the wrong modifier. Remember that Obama is against an all-out investigation into the torture program, which has angered many, including myself. So, while a "debate" with Cheney is a win-win for Obama and the Left, changing the subject on their own terms will help direct Democratic ire to supporting a candidate who is sure to be attacked based on her gender and ethnicity.

LovingSteam said:
Pelosi saying the CIA deceived and lied. Also talking about Guantanamo when the head of the FBI said it would be dangerous to bring prisoners onto US land even though that is what Obama is trying to do.

Pelosi was right and the focus on her will continue to show that. The second part of this quote shows that you have either zero political depth or you just don't keep up; Obama isn't "trying" to bring prisoners onto "US land." But this debate, and your arguments, have already been had and you -- and your arguments -- lost.

That doesn't change the fact that the topic of this news cycle has very obviously changed with both North Korea and Sotomayor washing away the memories of Torture and the Swine Flue. And it doesn't change the fact that there are some tremendous residual emotions regarding torture and needing a full accounting of the program.
 
adg1034 said:
It invokes a "Black people are taking your jobs, good hard-working white North Carolinians, and now, they're coming after mine!" mentality. It's also carefully worded to appeal to both people who are against affirmative action in the workplace and people who have racist tendencies.
So what in your view would be an appropriate way of attacking the issue, that could be condensed into a 30 second TV ad? Affirmative action is inherently discriminatory. It's an ugly practice and I can't think of a "clean" way to expose it.

You suggest some kind of sinister double-meaning to the wording of the ad. I don't see it that way; it does imply that a white person's job prospects might be endangered by a racial quota, and...well, that's true. There's nothing wrong with framing an issue in a way that a voter is able to directly relate to.
 
LovingSteam said:
As I have shown, both parties do it in terms of throw out accusations, sexist and racial epithets. You may argue that one is worse than the other, I would argue they are both just as guilty.

And you would be wrong.

Squirrel Killer said:
Unfortunately, I think you might be giving her the benefit of the doubt. Her use of "I would hope..." gives her a little wiggle room, but in context, she doesn't limit the "better conclusion" that the Latina female would reach due to her "richer" life experience as you suggest.

You're right that I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt, because I don't tend to assume that people who have dedicated their lives to relatively quiet and underpaid public service in the judiciary are harboring secret dreams of racial superiority carefully concealed behind a mask of reasonableness.

I don't know about the O'Connor claim. I think if I abstracted it a bit, I would agree with it, perhaps something along the lines of, "a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same the same level of justice in deciding cases."

It's possible to make that argument when you abstract it enough, and you look at a single seat in a vacuum. It's very difficult to make the case, IMO, that a group of seven straight white male justices of relatively affluent backgrounds who attended a limited set of Ivy League law schools and who lived in the coastal regions would make equally just rulings across the board compared to a panel of justices who varied significantly on all of those factors and therefore were able to bring a perspective on a much broader cross-section of American life to the table in their rulings.*

*Unless you're JayDubya and you believe judicial rulings are a strict question of matter-of-fact interpretation of written textual evidence, of course.

mckmas8808 said:
Why would Obama want the public and media to not talk about torture and Cheney?

Because he's demonstrably disinterested in engaging with the issue?
 
PantherLotus said:
Pelosi was right and the focus on her will continue to show that. The second part of this quote shows that you have either zero political depth or you just don't keep up; Obama isn't "trying" to bring prisoners onto "US land." But this debate, and your arguments, have already been had and you -- and your arguments -- lost.

That doesn't change the fact that the topic of this news cycle has very obviously changed with both North Korea and Sotomayor washing away the memories of Torture and the Swine Flue. And it doesn't change the fact that there are some tremendous residual emotions regarding torture and needing a full accounting of the program.

Pelosi who is the 3rd most powerful person in the US accused the CIA of willfully lying to congress. She will need to prove this and hopefully the congress will create a committee to look into her accusations. It's troubling especially when Jane Harman wrote a letter of concern in 2003 and Pelosi didn't. Also, you can continue trying to change the topic by making accusations against me or calling me names (whatever you prefer) however you say he isn't trying to bring prisoners here and yet that is exactly what will be taking place. In order to sway other countries to accept prisoners he argues we need to accept them here. Guess what, Congress spoke with more than 90 senators saying they will not support the 80 mil he is asking to close Guantanamo without a more sound procedure to close it. It's amazing, can democrats do any wrong in your eyes?
 
charlequin said:
And you would be wrong.

Wrong that both sides do it or wrong that one doesn't do it more than the other? If its that both sides do it that I am wrong, I hope you are ignoring the quotes from key dems that i have posted. Otherwise you are simply avoiding the facts.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
LovingSteam said:
My, that is a fantastic and insightful response. I have learned so much from it.
That's about all your post merited. Two downright idiotic talking points instead of something vaguely rooted in reality. To flesh out the emoticons - one point for each:

1) There is a long history of the CIA misleading Congress, and an equally long history of bipartisan agreement/accusation of them doing so. But to the extent that Pelosi is a factor, it is because it's a distraction (by the GOP's own admission).

2) The memo cited to "incriminate" Pelosi has already been poked full of holes, with numerous inaccuracies, and the head of the CIA won't even vouch for it.

3) We already have over 30 domestic and international terrorists locked up in the US at the SuperMax site without incident, including those behind the 1993 WTC bombing and the "20th 9/11 hijacker". No one has ever escaped from it. There's plenty of NIMBY going on, but in reality, that's where they are heading. And the people that run it are not at all unhappy about it.

But more to the point - you really think Obama is afraid of the torture debate because of Pelosi? Really?
 

APF

Member
charlequin said:
Because he's demonstrably disinterested in engaging with the issue?
Except... he's demonstrably interested in engaging the issue, and specifically to contrast his position with Cheney's.
 
GhaleonEB said:
That's about all your post merited. Two downright idiotic talking points instead of something vaguely rooted in reality. To flesh out the emoticons - one point for each:

1) There is a long history of the CIA misleading Congress, and an equally long history of bipartisan agreement/accusation of them doing so. But to the extent that Pelosi is a factor, it is because it's a distraction (by the GOP's own admission).

2) The memo cited to "incriminate" Pelosi has already been poked full of holes, with numerous inaccuracies, and the head of the CIA won't even vouch for it.

3) We already have over 30 domestic and international terrorists locked up in the US at the SuperMax site without incident, including those behind the 1993 WTC bombing and the "20th 9/11 hijacker". No one has ever escaped from it. There's plenty of NIMBY going on, but in reality, that's where they are heading. And the people that run it are not at all unhappy about it.

But more to the point - you really think Obama is afraid of the torture debate because of Pelosi? Really?

Not at all and I didn't say otherwise. I was responding to a question of why select the nominee today. I answered to take attention away from Pelosi (not for Obama's sake but for her sake) and because the attention regarding Guantanamo isn't helping him. That is too assume he chose her today for political reasons which I don't think he did.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
APF said:
Except... he's demonstrably interested in engaging the issue, and specifically to contrast his position with Cheney's.


Damn dude I've been agreeing with you alot within the past 3 days. What does this show? That you are becoming more leftist or that the thread of posters are becoming too far left? :p

But seriously guys Obama loves to debate about this kind of thing. Especially if it's going to help with politically.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
LovingSteam said:
Not at all and I didn't say otherwise. I was responding to a question of why select the nominee today. I answered to take attention away from Pelosi (not for Obama's sake but for her sake) and because the attention regarding Guantanamo isn't helping him. That is too assume he chose her today for political reasons which I don't think he did.

Really? Want to point out why you believe that? Because his approval numbers are higher in the month of May than they were in March and April.
 
mckmas8808 said:
Really? Want to point out why you believe that? Because his approval numbers are higher in the month of May than they were in March and April.

Did I say it was hurting him? No. I said it wasn't helping. Many on the left expected him to close it day 1 just like they expected him to get our troops out of Iraq in 16 months. Many on the left didn't expect him to support a surge in Afghanistan. Many on the left didn't expect him to ban the photo's of more abuse. Many on the left didn't expect him to continue holding prisoners indefinitely. For many the Guantanamo issue isn't what they expected him to do. The talk of bringing these people to our shores isn't helping him.
 

APF

Member
mckmas8808 said:
Damn dude I've been agreeing with you alot within the past 3 days. What does this show? That you are becoming more leftist or that the thread of posters are becoming too far left? :p
Well, I'm a centrist who supports Obama, not a left-wing ideologue disappointed when he strays from their imaginations (so the latter :)
 
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=47838

(CNSNews.com) – U.S. Appeals Court Judge Sonia Sotomayor, mentioned as a possible Supreme Court nominee, voted to deny a racial discrimination claim in a 2008 decision. She dismissed the case in a one-paragraph statement that, in the opinion of one dissenting judge, ignored the evidence and did not even address the constitutional issues raised by the case.

The case, Ricci v. DeStefano, involved a group of 19 white firefighters and one Hispanic firefighter who filed suit in 2003 claiming that the city of New Haven, Conn., engaged in racial discrimination when it threw out the results of two promotion tests because none of the city’s black applicants had passed the tests.

Each of the plaintiffs had passed the exam. The case is currently before the U.S. Supreme Court.

The city threw out the results because it feared potential lawsuits from activist groups if few or no minority candidates were promoted. The city also claimed that in addition to potential lawsuits, promotions based on the test results would undermine their goal of diversity in the Fire Department.

The firefighters sued, arguing that New Haven was discriminating against them by deciding that the tests would promote too many white candidates and too few minorities.

Federal Judge Janet Bond Arterton rejected the firefighters’ appeal, siding with the city and saying that no racial discrimination had occurred because the city didn’t promote anyone at all.

U.S. Appeals Court Judge Sotomayor issued an order that affirmed Arterton’s decision, issuing a one-paragraph judgment that called Arterton’s ruling “thorough, thoughtful, and well reasoned,”

But according to dissenting Judge Jose Cabranes, the single-paragraph order issued by Sotomayor and her colleagues ignored over 1,800 pages of testimony and more than an hour of argument--ignoring the facts of the case.

“(T)he parties submitted briefs of 86 pages each and a six-volume joint appendix of over 1,800 pages; plaintiffs’ reply brief was over thirty pages long," Cabranes wrote.

"(O)ral argument, on December 10, 2007, lasted over an hour,” Cabranes explained, adding that more than two months after oral arguments, Sotomayor and the majority panel upheld the lower court in a summary order “containing a single substantive paragraph.”

Cabranes criticized Sotomayor and the majority for not explaining why they had sided with the city in their new opinion.

“This per curiam opinion adopted in toto the reasoning of the District Court, without further elaboration or substantive comment, and thereby converted a lengthy, unpublished district court opinion, grappling with significant constitutional and statutory claims of first impression, into the law of this Circuit,” Cabranes wrote in his dissent.

Judge Cabranes also said that Sotomayor’s opinion failed to address the constitutional issues of the case, saying the majority had ignored the facts of the case as well.

“It did so, moreover, in an opinion that lacks a clear statement of either the claims raised by the plaintiffs or the issues on appeal. Indeed, the opinion contains no reference whatsoever to the constitutional claims at the core of this case,” the judge criticized.

“This Court has failed to grapple with the questions of exceptional importance raised in this appeal,” Judge Cabranes concluded. “If the Ricci plaintiffs are to receive such an opinion from a reviewing court they must now look to the Supreme Court. Their claims are worthy of that review.”

The opinion, or lack thereof, in the Ricci case is the last in a series of strange opinions issued by Sotomayor.


In another recent decision, U.S.A. v. Marcus, Sotomayor sent the case of a convicted violent sex trafficker back to a lower court because a lower court judge had not specifically told the jury that some, though not all, of the sex trafficking had taken place before it was specifically outlawed.

In another unusual case, then-district Judge Sotomayor ruled that a prospective lawyer must be given special consideration in taking the New York state bar exam because her dyslexia qualified as a disability under the Americans with Disabilities Act, despite the fact that she had failed the exam five times.

As a district court judge, Sotomayor also allowed a racial discrimination claim to continue when the plaintiff, a black nurse, sued Bellevue Hospital Corp because other nurses spoke mainly in Filipino, their native tongue, which she claimed made her feel harassed and isolated.

In 1994, Judge Sotomayor ruled in favor of two prisoners who claimed to practice Santeria, a Caribbean religion that involves animal sacrifice and voodoo, saying that “distinctions between ‘traditional’ and ‘non-traditional’ religions” are “intolerable.”

Sotomayor was originally nominated to the bench by former President George H.W. Bush on the recommendation of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-N.Y.). She was elevated to the Second Circuit Court of Appeals by President Bill Clinton in 1997.
 
LovingSteam said:
Wrong that both sides do it or wrong that one doesn't do it more than the other? If its that both sides do it that I am wrong, I hope you are ignoring the quotes from key dems that i have posted. Otherwise you are simply avoiding the facts.

Look, I get that you literally don't understand the political history of the United States and therefore are constructing an argument in a vacuum here, but it's tiring nonetheless. Here's a bullet points version:

  • Lots of people in America, Democrats and Republicans both, are racist to varying degrees, and this means that politicians of both parties have been caught saying racist and embarrassing things, a point that no one denies.
  • BUT! The history of race as a wedge issue to win racist or subconsciously race-baited white votes is much more concrete and specific than racism in general.
  • For many long years, the Democrats were the party of race-baiting, representing as they did disaffected Southern whites unhappy with the result of the Civil War.
  • But in the 1960s, with the Civil Rights Movement, Democrats locked themselves in as the party that supported Civil Rights. The Republican party, seeing an opportunity, pounced.
  • There was a huge realignment. The solidly-Democratic South became the solidly-Republican South. Most "Dixiecrats" (like Strom Thurmond) switched their allegiance and became Republicans.
  • From Nixon onward, the Republican party actively employed the "Southern Strategy" to use white racial anxiety in the South to win national electoral victories.
  • Because of this new alignment (where almost all American blacks voted Democratic, while the Dixiecrats had realigned with the Republicans), the clear majority of the living politicians who took policy positions we would identify as unambiguously racist (pro-segregation, anti-Civil Rights, etc.) earlier in their careers are now aligned with the GOP.
  • Whether the people involved are personally "racist" or not, the Republican party has continued to use Southern Strategy tactics through from Nixon's era to today, and only recently begun to encounter the kinds of demographic problems that blunt the impact of these tactics; the Democratic party has racial minorities as a major element of its base, and very clearly can't make real use of similar tactics themselves.

mckmas8808 said:
So why did he talk about it so much within the last 2 or so weeks?

Because you don't always get to pick what you have to talk about when you're the President?

As far as I can tell, Obama wants to close Gitmo because it's the right thing to do, not because he thinks he's going to get props or earn political capital off of it. He'd rather just say he's doing it, make it happen, and move onto other things, instead of get caught up in a debate with Dick Cheney that the media can spin him as "losing" and fuel yet more painful poll numbers where Americans support torture for no reason.
 
Funky Papa said:

200922.jpg
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
APF said:
I'm still having difficulty gathering the sides of your argument here. Lott apologized, Byrd apologized. Byrd's transgressions were a lot worse than Lott's. Lott was forced into bending himself over backwards--and losing his position as Majority Leader--in apology, largely due to backlash within his own party. Yet Lott's comment is irrevocable and Byrd's history is forgivable.
Even if you assign the same weight to both apologies - believe me, I don't - there's a marked difference between Byrd's repudiation of and disassociation with his Klan past and Lott's refusal to turn his back on associating with the CCC. It's Andy Petite vs A-Rod, one guy unequivocally turning his back on his past fuck-ups and another guy trying to tap-dance without losing the political support of a group whose national officer signed David Duke's "New Orleans Protocol," pledging to work with other hate groups to achieve their collective dream of a white America. Amongst other hateful transgressions.

The fact that Lott was pushed into backpedaling - instead of realizing that what he said and the group he associated himself was political anathema - reinforces that his forced apology does not and should not carry the same weight.

Being sorry and being sorry you got caught are two very different things.
 
charlequin said:
Look, I get that you literally don't understand the political history of the United States and therefore are constructing an argument in a vacuum here, but it's tiring nonetheless. Here's a bullet points version:

  • Lots of people in America, Democrats and Republicans both, are racist to varying degrees, and this means that politicians of both parties have been caught saying racist and embarrassing things, a point that no one denies.
  • BUT! The history of race as a wedge issue to win racist or subconsciously race-baited white votes is much more concrete and specific than racism in general.
  • For many long years, the Democrats were the party of race-baiting, representing as they did disaffected Southern whites unhappy with the result of the Civil War.
  • But in the 1960s, with the Civil Rights Movement, Democrats locked themselves in as the party that supported Civil Rights. The Republican party, seeing an opportunity, pounced.
  • There was a huge realignment. The solidly-Democratic South became the solidly-Republican South. Most "Dixiecrats" (like Strom Thurmond) switched their allegiance and became Republicans.
  • From Nixon onward, the Republican party actively employed the "Southern Strategy" to use white racial anxiety in the South to win national electoral victories.
  • Because of this new alignment (where almost all American blacks voted Democratic, while the Dixiecrats had realigned with the Republicans), the clear majority of the living politicians who took policy positions we would identify as unambiguously racist (pro-segregation, anti-Civil Rights, etc.) earlier in their careers are now aligned with the GOP.
  • Whether the people involved are personally "racist" or not, the Republican party has continued to use Southern Strategy tactics through from Nixon's era to today, and only recently begun to encounter the kinds of demographic problems that blunt the impact of these tactics; the Democratic party has racial minorities as a major element of its base, and very clearly can't make real use of similar tactics themselves.

You may make assumptions if you choose about me. I may not understand the total history of American politics, that I grant, however I do understand enough. We just disagree on the points. I appreciate the points that you listed and did read through them, for the most part I was aware of these points. Again, my whole point isn't to say republicans are innocent or democrats are guilty. It is to say both parties take part in the same banter. Both parties are just as guilty in my opinion and I would say that many would agree with me just like many would agree with you and disagree with me. You may prefer to ignore any dissenting argument or person who presents such argument as "ignorant" if you choose.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
LovingSteam said:
Did I say it was hurting him? No. I said it wasn't helping. Many on the left expected him to close it day 1 just like they expected him to get our troops out of Iraq in 16 months. Many on the left didn't expect him to support a surge in Afghanistan. Many on the left didn't expect him to ban the photo's of more abuse. Many on the left didn't expect him to continue holding prisoners indefinitely. For many the Guantanamo issue isn't what they expected him to do. The talk of bringing these people to our shores isn't helping him.


- Being disappointed that Obama isn't leaving in 16 months, but 20 months (I believe is was the change) is stupid. WTF does 4 months make.

- Obama was for more troops in Afgan. He said so before he chosen to be our POTUS.

- He didn't ban the photos of more abuse out right. Just this particular issue for decent reason.

- The prisoners thing is a surprise. And many are pissed. I'm not right now, because I'm waiting on the lawful ways they will deal with the difficult issue.
 
charlequin said:
If you want anyone to take you seriously, you need to not (a) post news stories from weird crypto-agenda sites that write editorial pieces dressed up to look like news, and (b) not just post walls of text without quote tags, contextualization, or bold.

Edited per your request. Also, I figured you would make a comment about the source rather than reading its contents first. I suppose I should ignore any post that contains Huffingtonpost since I disagree with the way it leans rather than reading the contents?
 
LovingSteam said:
As a district court judge, Sotomayor also allowed a racial discrimination claim to continue when the plaintiff, a black nurse, sued Bellevue Hospital Corp because other nurses spoke mainly in Filipino, their native tongue, which she claimed made her feel harassed and isolated.
Some of those cases are pretty bad. Especially this one. What the fuck? There must be more to the case than that.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
charlequin said:
Because you don't always get to pick what you have to talk about when you're the President?

As far as I can tell, Obama wants to close Gitmo because it's the right thing to do, not because he thinks he's going to get props or earn political capital off of it. He'd rather just say he's doing it, make it happen, and move onto other things, instead of get caught up in a debate with Dick Cheney that the media can spin him as "losing" and fuel yet more painful poll numbers where Americans support torture for no reason.

But Obama has never been afraid of having a debate. He campaigned on closing Gitmo. There's no way in hell he thought he could do that without a fight or debating it in front of the country.

If he thought he could close Gitmo and bring the supposed "terrorist" to US prisions without question, then I guess he isn't as smart as we thought.
 

mckmas8808

Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I.F. said:
Some of those cases are pretty bad. Especially this one. What the fuck? There must be more to the case than that.


Of course there is. But don't let the conservative articles stop you from hating this pick.
 
mckmas8808 said:
- Being disappointed that Obama isn't leaving in 16 months, but 20 months (I believe is was the change) is stupid. WTF does 4 months make.

- Obama was for more troops in Afgan. He said so before he chosen to be our POTUS.

- He didn't ban the photos of more abuse out right. Just this particular issue for decent reason.

- The prisoners thing is a surprise. And many are pissed. I'm not right now, because I'm waiting on the lawful ways they will deal with the difficult issue.

From my understanding they wanted the soldiers out YESTERDAY. Also realize that Obama will keep thousands of prisoners in Iraq longer than the 20 months. Al be it, far fewer than there are now (I agree with him)

Obama was for troops in Afgan however many are upset because they feel its a war we cannot win (just like Iraq) and want the troops out yesterday. I feel Obama did an amazing decision in the surge for Afghanistan and in fact many repubs gave him credit for doing so.

He didn't ban the photos but said that they will take it to the supreme court if need be which they weren't going to do originally. Again, I agree with him if will lead to more violence. What is interesting is that many who want the pictures shown, many in the media, are the same individuals that chose to not publish the Muhammad cartoons saying it would create violence. So in reality for these people freedom of the press and free speech are applicable when it applies to abuse by our soldiers but not when it comes to printing something that will offend religious folk. Again, agree with Obama.

Prisoners, I agree with him for the most part. I think its fascinating to watch a person go from senator/governor to Pres. They say many things before the inauguration and then go back on it. Why? Because they are given full access to intelligence that they didn't have access to before hand. Also Obama like Bush is fighting for immunity for the phone companies in terms of spying.
 

PantherLotus

Professional Schmuck
LovingSteam said:
You may make assumptions if you choose about me. I may not understand the total history of American politics, that I grant, however I do understand enough. We just disagree on the points. I appreciate the points that you listed and did read through them, for the most part I was aware of these points. Again, my whole point isn't to say republicans are innocent or democrats are guilty. It is to say both parties take part in the same banter. Both parties are just as guilty in my opinion and I would say that many would agree with me just like many would agree with you and disagree with me. You may prefer to ignore any dissenting argument or person who presents such argument as "ignorant" if you choose.

:(

You don't read, think, understand, or have the capacity for complex issues. You keep saying the exact same thing and no matter how many times you are proven wrong, you keep saying the same exact incorrect thing.

And worse, even if you were right, which you couldn't be further from, you're still using it as some weird form of justification. It just doesn't make sense.

Both parties DO NOT take part in "the same banter." Both parties ARE NOT "just as guilty" and it doesn't matter how many other racists agree with you. You're still wrong.
 

bishoptl

Banstick Emeritus
LovingSteam said:
Pelosi who is the 3rd most powerful person in the US accused the CIA of willfully lying to congress. She will need to prove this and hopefully the congress will create a committee to look into her accusations.
Ruh roh! Looks like someone isn't aware that Republicans are joining her in calling for the release of the notes. :D
Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-Mich.), who read those notes at CIA headquarters last Thursday, did not dispute her characterization. Hoekstra was asked, after Pelosi's comments, if the notes would show her to have been untruthful.

"I'm not going to make that judgment based on those materials. I think there's a lot of information that needs to be available to us to get into that," he said. Hoekstra is preparing a "broader document release request from the CIA," he added, and will be requesting notes from before and after the meeting to attempt to ascertain the purpose of the briefing.

But, he said, the only people who know the truth were those in the room. "I can't make that judgment. I was not in that meeting. I know that there were people in that meeting with a very different recollection of the meeting and what was told," he said. "Only the people that were in the meeting know today." Hoekstra too called for the release of the notes.
Oooh! There's more! I hope you're fired up about hearing what the Republican Minorty Leader of the House, John Boehner, had to say to Wolf Blitzer!
Boehner is then asked about Pete Hoekstra's similar claims that the CIA also lied to him.

Blitzer: Last year the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee Pete Hoekstra of Michigan, he said this in response to a case that he was watching very closely, an American citizen who was killed in a plane crash, the cover up he alleged involving the CIA, he said these words--"We cannot have an intelligence community that covers up what it does and then lies to Congress". That's what Pete Hoekstra said in 2008.

Boehner: Pete Hoekstra did say that. And the Inspector General at the CIA did an investigation and it became clear that some CIA operatives did in fact cover this up. This is not, we’re talking about two different issues here. All the facts in this case are on the table and the truth is now known to all of... to everyone.

BLITZER: So, based on what you know on that case involving Hoekstra, the case he was interested in, do you agree that the CIA then lied to Congress?

Boehner: I know as much about this case as Pete Hoekstra does and the Inspector General did in fact do an investigation, produced a report and frankly supported, I think, Pete’s claims. And all we're trying to do here in both cases is to get to the bottom, get to the truth, and the truth is what we want here. And the fact is that CIA Director Panetta issued a very strong letter to Speaker Pelosi making it clear that in his opinion they did not mislead her or lie to her. And so I either want to see the documents or I'd like to see the Speaker apologize.
So, to wit:

Republicans saying the CIA lied to Congress - okay
Democrats saying the CIA lied to Congress - bad

Remind me why we should take your posts seriously again?
 
Funky Papa said:


"This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins".

Chirac is said to have been stupefied and disturbed by Bush's invocation of Biblical prophesy to justify the war in Iraq and "wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs".

Holy crap if that stuff is true. WTF? That is worse that Nancy Reagan & the astrologer. At least that stuff would be random as opposed to Bush's literal Holy war.
 
PantherLotus said:
:(

You don't read, think, understand, or have the capacity for complex issues. You keep saying the exact same thing and no many how many times you are proven wrong, you keep saying the same exact incorrect thing.

And worse, even if you were right, which you couldn't be further from, you're still using it as some weird form of justification. It just doesn't make sense.

Both parties DO NOT take part in "the same banter." Both parties ARE NOT "just as guilty" and it doesn't matter how many other racists agree with you. You're still wrong.

Honestly Panther, I am not trying to be ignorant here. Believe me, I have no problem admitting when I am wrong as some here can show (gay marriage = civil rights). I am also not trying to soften the history of the republican's racist individuals and methods. I have a problem when one person/party tries to throw stones at another person/party without taking a cold hard look at their own sin. Many on the left throw stones and yet are guilty of the same reasons they are throwing the stones at the other. Dems have a history of racism just as republicans do. I would have a problem casting the democratic PARTY in a negative light since the majority of them are not guilty of such sin, just as I have a problem with casting the republican party in the light since the majority of them are not guilty of said sin.
 
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