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PoliGAF Thread of THE END and FIST POUNDS (NYT: Hillary drop out/endorse Saturday)

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W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
Evander said:
I don't even know where to start...
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i've done so much work on aipac that you'd be hard-pressed to tell me that i'm wrong.

first, it's not like I said "jews" in a bad tone. it's folly to say that the people who belong to aipac are interested in hearing an american preach to them about the benefits of diplomacy with iran.
 
G

GitarooMan

Member
typhonsentra said:
Woman: "I just don't think America's ready for a black president."

Reporter: "But.... that doesn't explain your vote."

Woman: "I.... just would prefer Hillary."
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:lol I saw something along these lines on CNN this morning a reporter was interviewing people in New York for reaction after last night. The women just about came out and stated she was racist on national TV.
 
S

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
camineet said:
BTW, Ronald Reagan was absolutely FORCED to have George H. W. Bush as his VP in 1980. Reagan did not want Bush at all, Reagan disliked Bush and Nancy couldn't STAND him. Reagan vowed that no member of a secret society (Bush = Skull & Bones) would be on his ticket.
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Odd for a member of a rather prestigious pseudo-"secret society"
Reagon-nixon.jpg
 
T

Trakdown

Member
Jason's Ultimatum said:
Hai guys. Can anyone fill me in on what has happened since 12am in the morning? Anything new happened? Hillary still hasn't coceded yet?
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She's meeting with her staff and SUPPOSEDLY having a sitdown with Obama today.

Reid told the Senate SD's to give her her space and not endorse yet, they may still make a decision today but it could also take till Friday.

Also, Obama just received a standing ovation for his speech at AIPAC in his support for Israel. He's done, Hillary's speaking next. Tough act to follow.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
To everyone tetchy about Hillary, in just one speech this morning Obama is proving why he doesn't even remotely need her help. If he can own that room (and he totally owned that room), he's going to do extraordinarily well building all KINDS of bridges in the general election.

It bears repeating:

2n05u9v.jpg
 
E

Evander

"industry expert"
Liara T'Soni said:
I'm not an expert but I know a decent amount of history regarding the founding of the nation and I try to keep up on the current situation when I can. Do I have to be some sort of degree on the situation to have an opinion on it? Or are you just being condescending?
Click to expand...

I wasn't going to try an argument from authority, but I have spent a GREAT deal of time studying the situation from all angles (personally AS WELL AS academically), and visited the country a few times, so I take a little bit of offense at you trying to belittle the idea of studying the issue.

I'm not able to watch Obama's current speach, so if he's changed his stance I do not know, but from what I've read about his Israel platform in the past, it seems pretty even handed, supporting a palestinian state, and opposing further Israeli settlements, while also supporting Israel's right to self-defense. I guess I'm just curious what part of that disappoints you. Do you think that Israel should be allowed to displace even more Palestinians and that Palestinians have no right to their own nation, or do you think that Israel should sit idly by while their people are killed.

Obama's Israel platform is delightfully pragmatic in that it is an ACTUAL compromise that seeks peace without trying to grandstand through punishing one side or the other, and just wasting time and letting the body count rack up in the process. It's not perfect, because it (like every other plan) lacks a catalyst to get both sides to work together, but its much better than just saying "we should support everything Israel does", or saying "Israel should stop responding to terrorist threats and just let their people die."
 
M

mclem

Member
StrikerObi said:
I'm all for involving her. I'm very pro-Obama, and I think there's a place in the white house for her somewhere. The question is where.
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The steam-pipe trunk distribution venue?
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Evander said:
I wasn't going to try an argument from authority, but I have spent a GREAT deal of time studying the situation from all angles (personally AS WELL AS academically), and visited the country a few times, so I take a little bit of offense at you trying to belittle the idea of studying the issue.

I'm not able to watch Obama's current speach, so if he's changed his stance I do not know, but from what I've read about his Israel platform in the past, it seems pretty even handed, supporting a palestinian state, and opposing further Israeli settlements, while also supporting Israel's right to self-defense. I guess I'm just curious what part of that disappoints you. Do you think that Israel should be allowed to displace even more Palestinians and that Palestinians have no right to their own nation, or do you think that Israel should sit idly by while their people are killed.

Obama's Israel platform is delightfully pragmatic in that it is an ACTUAL compromise that seeks peace without trying to grandstand through punishing one side or the other, and just wasting time and letting the body count rack up in the process. It's not perfect, because it (like every other plan) lacks a catalyst to get both sides to work together, but its much better than just saying "we should support everything Israel does", or saying "Israel should stop responding to terrorist threats and just let their people die."
Click to expand...

That's basically what he said today, very well summarized, thank you.
 
S

sangreal

Member
Barack Obama should not pick Hillary Clinton as his vice-presidential nominee, former president Jimmy Carter has told the Guardian.

"I think it would be the worst mistake that could be made," said Carter. "That would just accumulate the negative aspects of both candidates."

Carter, who formally endorsed the Illinois senator last night, cited opinion polls showing 50% of US voters with a negative view of Clinton.

In terms that might discomfort the Obama camp, he said: "If you take that 50% who just don't want to vote for Clinton and add it to whatever element there might be who don't think Obama is white enough or old enough or experienced enough or because he's got a middle name that sounds Arab, you could have the worst of both worlds."
Click to expand...

Lay it down Jimmy!
 
E

Evander

"industry expert"
whytemyke said:
i've done so much work on aipac that you'd be hard-pressed to tell me that i'm wrong.

first, it's not like I said "jews" in a bad tone. it's folly to say that the people who belong to aipac are interested in hearing an american preach to them about the benefits of diplomacy with iran.
Click to expand...

AIPAC's key issue is that they believe they must support all actions of the Israeli government. When Israel has a liberal government in power, AIPAC suddenly turns pro-peace talks, instead of War Mongering.

And the whole "rich, nervous" thing is not something that came from research, it is a stereotype. It's like reffering to the NAACP as being full of "urban, fried-chicken loving blacks". Please don't repeat stereotypes, and then pretend that it's based on "work you've done."
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
mclem said:
The steam-pipe trunk distribution venue?
Click to expand...

Hi5!

:lol

He's hoping for a long and fruitful general campaign of West Wing reference upon West Wing reference, towering to the clouds like some magic rubber ball, breaking through the glass of lesser references, into the offices of hope beyond it.
 
E

Evander

"industry expert"
BenjaminBirdie said:
That's basically what he said today, very well summarized, thank you.
Click to expand...

If that is what he said, then I think I love the man. I haven't been able to take a look at his speach yet; I'm just basing my guesses at his stance on a combination of his platform on his website, and what I would personally like to see in a candidate.

I am SO anti-orange that it hurts.
 
S

sangreal

Member
I couldn't watch the AIPAC speech since I'm at work, but Obama didn't get where he is by being a panderbear. He has a record of giving speeches that his audience doesn't want to hear, so you shouldn't be surprised he is talking about diplomacy at AIPAC.
 
Guileless

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
As James Mann describes it in Rise of the Vulcans, the Reagan campaign was deep in negotiations with former Pres. Ford during the convention for him to be the VP, but it eventually broke down. At the last minute, the Reagan campaign called Bush and offered him the job because the convention was underway and they were under a lot of time pressure. Because they were still viewed as outsiders before the '80 general election, the Reagan campaign was always going to choose someone from the moderate wing of the party. There was no arm-twisting for Bush specifically, who would be twisting Reagan's arm? It just had to be someone seen as a moderate bridge to the old East Coast establishment.
 
T

Trakdown

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Hillary looks to be speaking as a New York Senator and not a candidate, unless this changes, awkwardly.
Click to expand...

I hope to God I'm right and she knows better than to use this as an after-the-fact rally. So far, so good though.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Evander said:
If that is what he said, then I think I love the man. I haven't been able to take a look at his speach yet; I'm just basing my guesses at his stance on a combination of his platform on his website, and what I would personally like to see in a candidate.

I am SO anti-orange that it hurts.
Click to expand...

Well, I hope I'm not misrepresenting it in my enthusiasm, but it was a very firm commitment to Israel's strength and security, a very firm reiteration of his commitment to using firm diplomacy, including some very specific motions against Iran.

I'm sure you'll see it soon.
 
K

Kitschkraft

Member
Evander said:
I wasn't going to try an argument from authority, but I have spent a GREAT deal of time studying the situation from all angles (personally AS WELL AS academically), and visited the country a few times, so I take a little bit of offense at you trying to belittle the idea of studying the issue.

I'm not able to watch Obama's current speach, so if he's changed his stance I do not know, but from what I've read about his Israel platform in the past, it seems pretty even handed, supporting a palestinian state, and opposing further Israeli settlements, while also supporting Israel's right to self-defense. I guess I'm just curious what part of that disappoints you. Do you think that Israel should be allowed to displace even more Palestinians and that Palestinians have no right to their own nation, or do you think that Israel should sit idly by while their people are killed.

Obama's Israel platform is delightfully pragmatic in that it is an ACTUAL compromise that seeks peace without trying to grandstand through punishing one side or the other, and just wasting time and letting the body count rack up in the process. It's not perfect, because it (like every other plan) lacks a catalyst to get both sides to work together, but its much better than just saying "we should support everything Israel does", or saying "Israel should stop responding to terrorist threats and just let their people die."
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I'm not going to delve into my thoughts on Israel now, I just disagree with the unquestionable love that every one of out politicians has for the country, any critique of Israel and it's policies and you are no longer electable.

It's expected of course, and as I said, Obama is the only one where I can look past these kind of issues to vote for, so it is what it is I guess.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
Evander said:
AIPAC's key issue is that they believe they must support all actions of the Israeli government. When Israel has a liberal government in power, AIPAC suddenly turns pro-peace talks, instead of War Mongering.

And the whole "rich, nervous" thing is not something that came from research, it is a stereotype. It's like reffering to the NAACP as being full of "urban, fried-chicken loving blacks". Please don't repeat stereotypes, and then pretend that it's based on "work you've done."
Click to expand...
I understand that your hypersensitivity is going to project a racial/ethnic undertone to my saying "rich, nervous" but ultimately AIPAC has been carrying the flag of the NeoCon movement ever since 9/11, oftentimes utilizing American fears to perpetuate Israeli goals in the Middle East. And since "Rich and nervous" is about a dead-on assessment of the people who comprise the neocon movement, I say that my assessment is dead-on.

Or, in terms you can understand-- there's a difference between seeing a black guy in Popeye's and asking "How's the chicken?" versus seeing a black guy at work and asking the same question. One is in context, and my comment was in context. Don't take it out of context and act like I just insulted Jews everywhere.
 
T

Trakdown

Member
Okay, I can give her some props for now. She actually went after McCain and boosted Obama and the Democratic Party. Good on her.
 
S

sangreal

Member
So Bush and Rice can congratulate Obama, but not Hillary?
Barack Obama, the new presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, made sure to praise Hillary Clinton again in opening his speech this morning to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.

He called her an "extraordinary candidate, an extraordinary public servant," and "a true friend of Israel."

"I'm very proud to have competed against her," he said.

Clinton, however, still hasn't acknowledged her defeat.

Indeed, she hasn't gone as far as President Bush, who has congratulated Obama on his victory to become the first African-American nominee for a major party.

White House press secretary Dana Perino told reporters this morning, "Senator Obama came a long way in becoming his party's nominee. And his historic achievement reflects the fact that our country has come along way, too."

And before the same group earlier today, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called Obama's nomination an "extraordinary" development for the United States.
Click to expand...
 
S

sangreal

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
It seems like she's really speaking as a Democratic Representative and not a nominee for president.

Fingers crossed.
Click to expand...
btw, Obama is speaking again this morning (now) at the SEIU convention: http://www.mydd.com/ has a stream/live blog

Update [2008-6-4 11:17:46 by Todd Beeton]:"Our partner, our brother, the Democratic nominee and the next president of the United States, Barack Obama." The place is going absolutely nuts.

Barack: "We won because we followed what I call Stern's first principle: organize, organize and organize some more."
Click to expand...
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
I usually like MSNBC's First Read - Chuck Todd dwells there for starters - but their analysis this morning is really off.

The next few days will be filled with Clinton political obits and many will focus on the strategic blunders of the campaign, including the decision to let Obama dictate the pace of the race (see those January '07 dueling Web videos); Mark Penn's focus on preparing Clinton for the general rather than realizing there was a primary; and glossing over the caucus states. But did Clinton ever actually have a chance?

Think about this fact. Since February 5, she secured fewer than 40 superdelegate endorsements... 40! No matter what the polls said or what her margins of victory were in Ohio or Pennsylvania or West Virginia, the party leaders would not allow themselves to be swayed away from Obama. Perhaps the Clinton hold on the party was gone a lot sooner than some of us in the media realized. These folks were simply looking for an excuse to dump the Clintons.
Click to expand...
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/04/1107917.aspx

She stopped picking up super delegate endorsements after February 5 because that's when Obama expanded his lead and started racking up the wins that would prove decisive. All that shows is that the other supers knew the math. There may be some truth to wanting the Clinton's out, but that didn't stop over 100 from flocking to Clinton after she announced.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
hillary should be secretary of HUD. :lol she's tough on crime.






actually, the best place for her would be attorney general, imo.
 
K

Kitschkraft

Member
Deus Ex Machina said:
Did she just slam Obama by inference??
Click to expand...

I swear, that moment where she started with the "we can never negotiate with them until...." was like the air getting sucked out the room....like she turned on the engine out of nowhere...:lol
 
E

Evander

"industry expert"
Liara T'Soni said:
Fair enough, I'm not going to delve into my thoughts on Israel now, I just disagree with the unquestionable love that every one of out politicians has for the country, any critique of Israel and it's policies and you are no longer electable.
Click to expand...

Your issue lies with a vocal minority WITHIN the supporters of Israel.

And with the quieter majority of the group, who refuse to tell that vocal minority to shut-up.



Believe me, I do my part towards the latter.
 
W

whytemyke

Honorary Canadian.
hey hillary, palestinian textbooks might not say that if they had some that were printed after 1976 :lol

durbin 2... special guest speaker dick durbin.
 
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