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PoliGAF Thread of THE END and FIST POUNDS (NYT: Hillary drop out/endorse Saturday)

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S

Sharp

Member
Re: Israel, I think the main problem is that the hawks in Israel are so vocal. One of my cousins sends frequent vitriolic, hateful emails about people in the US and how they are supporting terrorists, Arabs, etc., including emails about how Obama is a secret Muslim, etc. As stupid as the idea seems, the wall (when I visited our tour guide took pains to note that it was in fact a fence) has actually been very effective at reducing terrorist attacks on Israel. BTW, attacks are attempted on Israel almost daily, and while a lot of that is due to the poor living conditions and systematic discrimination that Palestinians living in Israel have suffered for a long time, and which should definitely be blamed on Israel, it is unclear what you expect them to do other than try to hunt down the terrorists. Given that they hide among civilians and are sponsored by the government, it is very difficult to specifically target them, and while it would indeed be terrible if Canada came into Manhattan to crush a terrorist cell in New York, which bears at least some similarities to the Lebanon situation, the current Palestinian government is a terrorist organization; it is more akin to the US invading Afghanistan, except that the US took significantly less care than Israel to preserve its government, infrastructure, etc. I think you should also keep in mind that Israel has suffered repeated attacks from neighboring countries with the stated goal of "driving all the Jews into the sea," which is why they are a lot quicker to take violent action than a country like the US can afford to be. Israel's past (and some present) decisions are responsible for a lot of its problems, but that doesn't make the solutions any easier.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hilary-rosen/i-am-not-a-bargaining-chi_b_105133.html

Great column from a Clinton supporter.
Senator Clinton's speech last night was a justifiably proud recitation of her accomplishments over the course of this campaign, but it did not end right. She didn't do what she should have done. As hard and as painful as it might have been, she should have conceded, congratulated, endorsed and committed to Barack Obama. Therefore the next 48 hours are now as important to the future reputation of Hillary Clinton as the last year and a half have been.

I am disappointed. As a long time Hillary Clinton supporter and more importantly, an admirer, I am sad that this historic effort has ended with such a narrow loss for her. There will be the appropriate "if onlys" for a long time to come. If only the staff shakeup happened earlier; if only the planning in caucus states had more focus; if only Hillary had let loose with the authentic human and connecting voice she found in the last three months of the campaign. If only. If only. I have written many times on this site about the talents of Hillary Clinton and why I thought she'd make a great President.

After last night's final primary, she was only about pledged 100 delegates behind him. Ironic that after not wanting to make the decision for so long, it was in fact, the superdelegates who made the decision. But I guess they did so for another reason. It just isn't her time. It is his time. It's a new day that offers a freshness to our party that many have longed for. We felt the rush of new voices and a new energy in the Congressional sweep of 2006 and the sweep continues. It has been an organic shift. And a healthy one.

The life's work of Bill and Hillary Clinton in partnering with so many African Americans uniting our purpose and promoting our mutual issues is as responsible for Barack Obama's success as our first African American nominee as anyone. And yet, that joy is being denied for them by themselves. It is so sad.

So, I am also so very disappointed at how she has handled this last week. I know she is exhausted and she had pledged to finish the primaries and let every state vote before any final action. But by the time she got on that podium last night, she knew it was over and that she had lost. I am sure I was not alone in privately urging the campaign over the last two weeks to use the moment to take her due, pass the torch and cement her grace. She had an opportunity to soar and unite. She had a chance to surprise her party and the nation after the day-long denials about expecting any concession and send Obama off on the campaign trail of the general election with the best possible platform. I wrote before how she had a chance for her "Al Gore moment." And if she had done so, the whole country ALL would be talking today about how great she is and give her her due.

Instead she left her supporters empty, Obama's angry, and party leaders trashing her. She said she was stepping back to think about her options. She is waiting to figure out how she would "use" her 18 million voters.

But not my vote. I will enthusiastically support Barack Obama's campaign. Because I am not a bargaining chip. I am a Democrat.
Click to expand...
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
maximum360 said:
Not necessarily huge crowds but cameras. That's all the crowd McSame needs.
Click to expand...

McCain's going to get the same camera time. There's only 2 candidates now. In the primary it's different, in the general they're both going to get shitloads of cameratime giving speeches and town halls.
 
E

Evander

"industry expert"
Sharp said:
Re: Israel, I think the main problem is that the hawks in Israel are so vocal. One of my cousins sends frequent vitriolic, hateful emails about people in the US and how they are supporting terrorists, Arabs, etc., including emails about how Obama is a secret Muslim, etc. As stupid as the idea seems, the wall (when I visited our tour guide took pains to note that it was in fact a fence) has actually been very effective at reducing terrorist attacks on Israel. BTW, attacks are attempted on Israel almost daily, and while a lot of that is due to the poor living conditions and systematic discrimination that Palestinians living in Israel have suffered for a long time, and which should definitely be blamed on Israel, it is unclear what you expect them to do other than try to hunt down the terrorists. Given that they hide among civilians and are sponsored by the government, it is very difficult to specifically target them, and while it would indeed be terrible if Canada came into Manhattan to crush a terrorist cell in New York, which bears at least some similarities to the Lebanon situation, the current Palestinian government is a terrorist organization; it is more akin to the US invading Afghanistan, except that the US took significantly less care than Israel to preserve its government, infrastructure, etc. I think you should also keep in mind that Israel has suffered repeated attacks from neighboring countries with the stated goal of "driving all the Jews into the sea," which is why they are a lot quicker to take violent action than a country like the US can afford to be. Israel's past (and some present) decisions are responsible for a lot of its problems, but that doesn't make the solutions any easier.
Click to expand...

Smack your cousin for me next time you see him.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Tamanon said:
McCain's going to get the same camera time. There's only 2 candidates now. In the primary it's different, in the general they're both going to get shitloads of cameratime giving speeches and town halls.
Click to expand...

God, thank you. It's like "Obama's going to get all this attention!"

Yeah, BECAUSE HE'S RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AGAINST SOMEONE.

Thinking that someone won't also have all eyes on them is just silly.
 
S

Sharp

Member
Evander said:
Smack your cousin for me next time you see him.
Click to expand...
Well, given that he's in Israel, has no surviving family except for us (and we're like fourth cousins), lives alone at forty, is incredibly intelligent, is chronically depressed, and I'm pretty sure seeing us is one of the only things that ever makes him happy, I'll probably pass on that. I asked him to stop sending the emails to me, and he has. Other relatives of mine write long, detailed responses to his invective, which he usually ignores or nitpicks for spelling and grammar mistakes (since he speaks English much better than most native English speakers).
 
B

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
BenjaminBirdie said:
God, thank you. It's like "Obama's going to get all this attention!"

Yeah, BECAUSE HE'S RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AGAINST SOMEONE.

Thinking that someone won't also have all eyes on them is just silly.
Click to expand...

I agree with you--Obama should accept the invitation. He's got nothing to be scared of. 'Sides, playing it straight like he always does is gonna kill McCain.
 
D

Diablos

Member
So Jimmy Carter thinks that it is a bad idea for Clinton to be on the ticket; I agree. Most people are only thinking about right now and not November. This is dangerous thinking. She's far too polarizing. This is a bad sign though, because most mainstream Democrats don't seem to care much about what Jimmy Carter says, so they'll probably ignore his advice as usual.

What's really funny is that since when do primaries where, in some states only Democrats can vote in them, other states they're open, the votes necessarily reflect what things will be like in the fall? It was not a general election. Many Republicans and Independents voted for Hillary in states where they could to help her win, thinking she'll lose to McCain. In no way should a primary automatically reflect what will happen in the fall. It's very scary how both the Clinton campaign and the networks (yes, even MSNBC) jump on this bandwagon that suggests since Clinton did so well in those states, she's the only Democrat who can carry them against McCain. It's bullshit and Obama should have been calling it an invalid argument weeks ago.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
I would give this speech.


"You know, after clinching the nomination, several rumors have suggested that I might choose Senator Clinton as my running mate."

<crowd uproar>

"Not gonna happen."

<Obama leaves the stage>
 
E

Evander

"industry expert"
Sharp said:
Well, given that he's in Israel, has no surviving family except for us (and we're like fourth cousins), lives alone at forty, is incredibly intelligent, is chronically depressed, and I'm pretty sure seeing us is one of the only things that ever makes him happy, I'll probably pass on that. I asked him to stop sending the emails to me, and he has. Other relatives of mine write long, detailed responses to his invective, which he usually ignores or nitpicks for spelling and grammar mistakes (since he speaks English much better than most native English speakers).
Click to expand...

I may be headed over there during the winter, so tell me where he lives, and I'll smack him myself.

We're talking about an Israeli here. I might as well just be saying "hi".



One of my favorite moments on atrip to Israel is when a bunch of us were at a hostel in the Negev, sitting at dinner and joking around a bit, clearly having fun. A man walks up and starts yelling at us in Hebrew, which I'm not ENTIRELY fluent in, but I could make out the stream of insults, as well as the factthat his cousin had recently died in military service. After he fineshed yelling at us, his buddy walks over, apologizes for his behavior, and then we all sit around chatting about how it is in Israel these days for a couple of hours. This is back in 2002.



Sometimes I worry when Israeli officials take the global stage if people see them as being too harsh because they just don't understand what Israelis are like. Or what people from the Middle East in general are like.
 
T

theBishop

Banned
esbern said:
who wants to go to town on this asshole? i don't have time right now, but this article is nuts.
Click to expand...

Here's some things:

Obama, who was a junior Illinois state senator from a very liberal district in Chicago and a star parishioner of the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr.'s Trinity United Church of Christ when the country was debating invading Iraq, would have voters believe that he carefully weighed the pros and cons and concluded it would be a bad idea.

You may be willing to give Obama the benefit of the doubt. I am not.
Click to expand...

Does anyone else see a point here? Is he faulting Obama for attenting Trinity in the run-up to Iraq? Is he faulting him for suggesting Iraq was a bad idea? Or his suggesting that Obama is misleading the American people by giving them the impression his Iraq stance wasn't the result of Reverend Wright's radical racist liberal socialist mind-control? I'm very confused.

---

As a candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2004, Obama said he would "unequivocally" oppose President Bush on the war. But once in office, he voted for every war-funding bill -- until he decided to run for president.
Click to expand...

I thought the subject was "judgment"... From Jonah's perspective, this should be evidence of good judgment. More to the point, there is no conflict between opposing a war, and voting to ensure our troops have the equipment they need to return home safely. That's called "supporting the troops": something John McCain chose not to support recently.

---

Obama did not favor an immediate pullout from Iraq. On July 27, 2004, the day after he delivered his brilliant keynote address to the Democratic National Convention, he told the Chicago Tribune that when it came to the war, "there's not much of a difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage." In other words, while he opposed the war, he was now committed to seeing it through. That was hardly the position of Moveon.org and other progressive outfits at the time.
Click to expand...

Again, what's the topic? Surely Mr. Goldberg is not suggesting Moveon.org and "other pregressive outfits" represent good judgment. Obama has responded to this quote (which comes from Meet the Press) on Meet the Press. And yes, one year after the invasion, Obama's position was (quote) "can we create a workable government in Iraq?" Now that its clear the answer is "no", his position is withdraw.

---

When the Bush administration finally implemented the "surge" of troops last year, it was Obama who "dug in," insisting that it wouldn't work -- and in fact would make things even worse.

By last November, the success of the surge was obvious to all open-minded observers
Click to expand...

You can read George W. Bush's rationale for the surge here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/01/20070110-7.html

To summarize: the Iraqi government is ready to deploy 18 Iraqi Army and National Police brigades, but they need our help setting up.

As of January 2008, only 3 brigades have been deployed, and staffing is still a concern.

The only "openminded observers" who believe the surge has worked have an "R" next to their name.

---

Meantime, there was the supposedly dogmatic McCain challenging Bush's approach to Iraq nearly from the get-go. In the summer of 2003, in response to the upswing in violence, he called for "a lot more military" in order to win in Iraq. He publicly "lost confidence" in Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld. In May 2004, McCain told ABC's George Stephanopoulos that "we've got to adjust to the realities of the situation as it exists, and that means doing whatever is necessary and acting decisively."
Click to expand...

Obviously Jonah Goldberg did not reference a single instance of "good judgment" from Obama, but I find it interesting that he could only muster 2 for John McCain.

John McCain's Good Judgment:

#1: He called for more troops in Iraq all the way back in 2003(!)

#2: He publicly "lost confidence" in Rumsfeld

Do these even qualify based on the examples he used against Obama earlier?
 
The Lamonster

The Lamonster

Member
Speevy said:
I would give this speech.


"You know, after clinching the nomination, several rumors have suggested that I might choose Senator Clinton as my running mate."

<crowd uproar>

"Not gonna happen."

<Obama leaves the stage>
Click to expand...
:lol

That would be awesome.
 
T

theBishop

Banned
Speevy said:
I would give this speech.


"You know, after clinching the nomination, several rumors have suggested that I might choose Senator Clinton as my running mate."

<crowd uproar>

"Not gonna happen."

<Obama leaves the stage>
Click to expand...

He needs to knuckle-knock Michelle after that, and then it will be perfect.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
IT'S ON:

The Obama campaign issued a statement welcoming the idea.

"As Barack Obama has said before, the idea of joint town halls is appealing and one that would allow a great conversation to take place about the need to change the direction of this country," his campaign stated. "We would recommend a format that is less structured and lengthier than the McCain campaign suggests, one that more closely resembles the historic debates between Abraham Lincoln and Stephen Douglas."

"This is one of the many items we will be addressing in the coming days and look forward to discussing it with the McCain campaign," the statement said.
Click to expand...


Fucking A, Bams.
 
C

Cheebs

Member
Diablos said:
So Jimmy Carter thinks that it is a bad idea for Clinton to be on the ticket; I agree.
Click to expand...
To be fair Carter is in the Pelosi, Gore, etc wing of the party that have felt since the mid-90's that the Clintons have hurt the party and for the most part dislike them. So he isn't well, an unbiased observer. Though I agree with him.
 
C

camineet

Banned
I am actually delighted by Hillary Clinton's behavior. It means even more people will loath her now, further destroying her chances for a 2012 or 2016 run.
 
M

mclem

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
I'd be pissed as hell if he doesn't. It flies in the face of everything he's said about looking forward to debating the issues.

By the way, it's a free chance for him to look completely ineffectual and old next to Bams in glorious high definition.
Click to expand...

Thinking about it, I think I know the best solution.

"Seems reasonable, okay. I've got a townhall in LA a week on Sunday. You're welcome to turn up".
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Nerd vote unite!

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=080604062402.9hhqclqi&show_article=1

George Lucas has created legendary film heroes like Luke Skywalker and Indiana Jones, but the US director says that in real life, his hero is Barack Obama.

Lucas was in Japan on Wednesday to promote his latest film, "Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull," as Obama clinched the Democratic Party's nomination for president.

"We have a hero in the making back in the United States today because we have a new candidate for president of the United States, Barack Obama," Lucas said when asked who his childhood heroes were.

Obama, "for all of us that have dreams and hope, is a hero," Lucas said.
Click to expand...
 
B

belvedere

Junior Butler
BenjaminBirdie said:
IT'S ON:




Fucking A, Bams.
Click to expand...

Awesome. I for one, like this idea.

I also like the fact that they accepted this offer based on a set of conditions, rather than blindly agreeing.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
belvedere said:
Awesome. I for one, like this idea.

I also like the fact that they accepted this offer based on a set of conditions, rather than blindly agreeing.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Handled very well.

So far Bams is having a great Day One.
 
M

mug

Member
I voted for Obama due to my sheer hatred for Clinton. If that crazy ass woman is on the ticket then I'm out.
 
Keylime

Keylime

ÏÎ¯Î»Ï á¼Î¾ÎµÏÎγλοÏÏον καί ÏεÏδολÏγον οá½Îº εἰÏÏν
belvedere said:
Awesome. I for one, like this idea.

I also like the fact that they accepted this offer based on a set of conditions, rather than blindly agreeing.
Click to expand...
Too bad Obama won't do this when it comes to discussions for enemy leaders, amirite?

AMIRITE?!
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Ah Ed Rendell:

"You don&#8217;t bargain with the Presidential nominee. Even if you&#8217;re Hillary Clinton and you have 18 million votes, you don&#8217;t bargain."

Figured he'd be one of the first to come around. Plus he even shot down Clinton's VP possibility indirectly.:p
 
T

TheGrayGhost

Banned
Have you guys seen the CNN story on the reactions of people in Kenya, the homeland of Obama's father? It's sweet, everyone adores him over there.
 
M

maximum360

Member
Tamanon said:
Ah Ed Rendell:

"You don’t bargain with the Presidential nominee. Even if you’re Hillary Clinton and you have 18 million votes, you don’t bargain."

Figured he'd be one of the first to come around. Plus he even shot down Clinton's VP possibility indirectly.:p
Click to expand...

Respect to Rendell for that. Trying to force your way on the ticket is the sure way to kill that dream (or nightmare, depending on your perspective).
 
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