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[Randolph Freelander]

I don't get the "religious grounds" objection for abortion.

There is no scriptural support for being pro-life or pro-choice, so you essentially just admit you're going to believe whatever your pope or pastor tells you to believe.

That's not reality. The Bible may not specifically mention the word or even concept of abortion, but that does not mean there is no scriptural basis for the position.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." -Jeremiah 1:5

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." -Psalms 139:13-14

"Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks." -1 Timothy 4:4

Even without those verses, if you hold that God is the creator and grantor of life, it is not an absurd religious position (granted, I know many of you hold all religious positions to be absurd, and I leave you to your own thoughts) to believe that ending a life is against God's purpose and is therefore wrong. Not only wrong, but is in fact murder. I'd certainly like it if you agreed, but I cannot make you so we'll just have to disagree agreeably.

 

[RDreamer]

I don't get the "religious grounds" objection for abortion.

There is no scriptural support for being pro-life or pro-choice, so you essentially just admit you're going to believe whatever your pope or pastor tells you to believe. Think about it ethically and come to your own conclusion, but don't just automatically agree with whatever your church says.

Well, it probably comes down to the question of "When is a soul present?" And while the Bible doesn't really spell that out, I think that's partially why religious people are against abortion, because the only logical place for him to put a soul there is somewhere around conception. I guess...

What's interesting though, is doesn't Judaism mostly allow abortion, at least traditionally? Meaning if Jesus had a real problem with it you'd think he'd have spoke up specifically.

That's not reality. The Bible may not specifically mention the word or even concept of abortion, but that does not mean there is no scriptural basis for the position.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." -Jeremiah 1:5

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." -Psalms 139:13-14

"Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks." -1 Timothy 4:4

Even without those verses, if you hold that God is the creator and grantor of life, it is not an absurd religious position (granted, I know many of you hold all religious positions to be absurd, and I leave you to your own thoughts) to believe that ending a life is against God's purpose and is therefore wrong. Not only wrong, but is in fact murder. I'd certainly like it if you agreed, but I cannot make you so we'll just have to disagree agreeably.

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows." Exodus 21:22

 

[metalslimer]

The biggest problems with the idea of souls in fetuses is that it would mean God implants millions of souls into fetuses destined to die by no fault of anyone. Of course I mean this is not out of the realm of possibility considering how ruthless the Christian god is sometimes, but who would want to believe in someone like this

 

[Puddles]

What about bonobos =(

Bonobos are cool.

 

[hym]

Reading the abortion talk made my mind switch to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

I have no clue why religion wants to impose their rules onto non-club members, or do they require the law to enforce their craziness onto their own believers?

 

[Loudninja]

N.J. to allow voting by e-mail and fax

New Jersey Gov. Chris Christie ordered early voting sites to offer extended hours through the weekend to encourage voters to make it to the polls.

"You don't have to wait to vote," he said. "Got a little time on your hands? Tired of cleaning stuff up? Go there in person, you will get a ballot, you vote, hand it in and you are done."
For those who can't make it to their voting precincts, Christie ordered election officials to allow displaced New Jersey voters to place their ballots electronically by submitting a mail-in ballot application via e-mail or fax. Once approved, the voter will be sent an electronic ballot that can, in turn, be e-mailed or faxed back to the county clerk.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/03/politics/sandy-voting-officials/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I think abortion is an important discussion but not necessarily a political one and certainly not a reason to vote one way of the other. It's a carrot on a string for both sides. When W was in the White House for 8 years what steps did he take to change anything about abortion? Do you really think the moderate Mitt Romney is going to do anything?

I think social positions such as abortion are just carrots that Republicans hold so the "religious right" will support them. They will say and do just enough on social issues, but their real focus is on doing everything to protect the 1% (even if some of the rank-and-file don't know it). I would very much like to see a different party system so that social issues could be debated independently of fiscal matters or, at the very least, for the religious right to inspect what they truly believe on all subjects, not just blindly accept positions held by those people that "agree" with you on the "one big thing."

 

[Drakeon]

N.J. to allow voting by e-mail and fax

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/03/politics/sandy-voting-officials/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Seeing a Republican be pro-early voting is messing with my brain. It's a welcome change, don't get me wrong, it just seems so unnatural after 2010 and all those states enacting voter id, curtailing early voting and pretty much making it harder to vote in general.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Seeing a Republican be pro-early voting is messing with my brain. It's a welcome change, don't get me wrong, it just seems so unnatural after literally everything the state governments who elected republicans into power has been about curtailing voting anyway they can.

Maybe he wants Bams to win now.

 

[Marvie_3]

Seeing a Republican be pro-early voting is messing with my brain. It's a welcome change, don't get me wrong, it just seems so unnatural after literally everything the state governments who elected republicans into power has been about curtailing voting anyway they can.

He's Obama's BFF now so this was bound to happen.

 

[bananas]

N.J. to allow voting by e-mail and fax

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/03/politics/sandy-voting-officials/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

If this works without any bug issues, I could see people really opening up to Internet voting. Good on Christie, too.

 

[speculawyer]

That's not reality. The Bible may not specifically mention the word or even concept of abortion, but that does not mean there is no scriptural basis for the position.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." -Jeremiah 1:5

"For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well." -Psalms 139:13-14

"Since everything God created is good, we should not reject any of it but receive it with thanks." -1 Timothy 4:4

Even without those verses, if you hold that God is the creator and grantor of life, it is not an absurd religious position (granted, I know many of you hold all religious positions to be absurd, and I leave you to your own thoughts) to believe that ending a life is against God's purpose and is therefore wrong. Not only wrong, but is in fact murder. I'd certainly like it if you agreed, but I cannot make you so we'll just have to disagree agreeably.

But as you point out, those scriptures don't use word or even concept of abortion. I feel those verses are Rorschach test . . . some will see something in them related to abortion others see them being utterly irrelevant. Are they to be taken literally or are they just expressions? Who knows? It is up to the person interpreting them. And people certainly draw different conclusions. But do we allow one group to force their interpretation on others? People of different denominations, different religions, or no religion?

 

[markatisu]

He's Obama's BFF now so this was bound to happen.

The national guard is also bringing in mobile voting machines to areas of NJ that were destroyed.

Christie needs Obama to win and I think is doing everything in his power to ensure that happens

 

[Hawkian]

unf

 

[Loudninja]

The national guard is also bringing in mobile voting machines to areas of NJ that were destroyed.

Christie needs Obama to win and I think is doing everything in his power to ensure that happens

Thats pretty damn cool, we need more of this.

 

[Aaron Strife]

NICE WORK now he's rerunning it because he put in a Montana poll wrong. If you hadn't posted it in PoliGAF he would never have noticed.

lol well actually it's even higher than his earlier model so this post no longer needs the subconscious sarcasm tag.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows." Exodus 21:22

“22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

I will grant that there is apparently some debate over whether or not this premature birth is, in fact, a miscarriage. Some have translated it so, others have not. But I thank you for the verse, it prompted me to look deeper.

 

[Black Mamba]

why did Obama's chances go up with Montana more red? What changed?

edit: Florida dropped by 2points. lol

 

[Paches]

The national guard is also bringing in mobile voting machines to areas of NJ that were destroyed.

Christie needs Obama to win and I think is doing everything in his power to ensure that happens

They should do this for Ohio too. In the democratic districts, the power went out in several voting areas and it has mysteriously yet to return...

 

[Grakl]

http://i.imgur.com/85xjz.png[IMG]

unf[/QUOTE]

But every poll could be biased, thus so would 538's model, thus Romney is winning.

 

[Hawkian]

why did Obama's chances go up with Montana more red? What changed?

edit: Florida dropped by 2points. lol

Montana's fixed. It was Florida.

*GULP* COME ON

 

[Randolph Freelander]

But do we allow one group to force their interpretation on others? People of different denominations, different religions, or no religion?

Force? No. Stand up for? I sure hope so.

I get that we're a melting pot. People believe different things. I also get that we're all in here (figuratively) fighting for what we believe. Christians and other people of faith should be no different. This is what we believe, let us stand up for it! In the end, that's all any of us can do. As I said in another post, I don't actually expect the needle to move very far on this.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

I think there's a lot of abortion related issues that ought to be tackled first (sex education, access to health care, family planning, etc) but this is one of those rare issues where I actually agree with the conservatives more than I disagree. In particular, I find it extremely upsetting that Democrats do not have more nuanced and complex arguments about the definition of human life. Just because the Republicans frame it as a 'religious issue' does not mean you can say religion is wrong and therefore the question is irrelevant.

I agree that in the most technical or scientific terms human life starts at conception, but that the real question is when we assign a legal or moral meaning to human life. And that's where I find typical Democratic positions sorely lacking. There's no sense of the incredible difficulty in trying to come up with some kind of non-arbitrary line for human life that doesn't lead to unwanted logic chains or absurd conclusions. Assigning a non-informed number of days/months is asinine, but establishing it based on specific physical or mental qualities is decidedly amorphous, or at the least extremely contentious.

However, even if we were to assign the full legal/moral weight to the conception model, I'm not convinced at all that would outweigh autonomous control over one's body in cases of non-consensual sex. Depending on where and how that definition of life line falls however, I can see arguments for both overriding or failing to override personal autonomy in cases of consensual sex.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Obama's now outside of MOE on the popular vote.

 

[Paches]

I am curious to see how many of the morning talk shows talk about this being a dead heat.

 

[speculawyer]

I think social positions such as abortion are just carrots that Republicans hold so the "religious right" will support them. They will say and do just enough on social issues, but their real focus is on doing everything to protect the 1% (even if some of the rank-and-file don't know it). I would very much like to see a different party system so that social issues could be debated independently of fiscal matters or, at the very least, for the religious right to inspect what they truly believe on all subjects, not just blindly accept positions held by those people that agree with you on the "one big thing."

I think that is largely true. It is definitely true for people like Karl Rove. But with people like Mourdock & Akin, they clearly are passionately motivated by the issue.

But I think the right does have a very convoluted and contradictory position with abortion. As George Carlin put it: If you are pre-born they love, if you are pre-school you are fucked. Altered Beast takes a much more consistent position being anti-abortion but also for universal healthcare and willing to make welfare available for those that really need it. If you are going to ban abortion, you better be willing to help people out that find themselves in desperate situations due a healthcare crisis or lack of employment. Don't make the kids suffer because of it.

But I don't think that would work so well . . . it would become a very expensive welfare state that American just would not accept.

 

[Paches]

Obama's now outside of MOE on the popular vote.

But if you are combining polls, you have to also sum up the MoE for all the polls, so he is still in it technically. Romney is winning.

 

[RDreamer]

“22 “If people are fighting and hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely[e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."

I will grant that there is apparently some debate over whether or not this premature birth is, in fact, a miscarriage. Some have translated it so, others have not. But I thank you for the verse, it prompted me to look deeper.

Yeah, I was just reading this paper on it

As far as I understand it most scholars and most of Judaism interprets it to mean miscarriage.

Also, in Judaism an embryo is not deemed a fully viable person, but rather a being of "doubtful viability." Jewish mourning rites don't apply to fetuses. Embryos are basically treated as "an appendage of its mother." The fetus is basically considered to be mere water until its 40th day, too.

And so I kind of feel like if this is the tradition that existed around the family and the life of the people around Jesus if it were such a horrible thing he likely would have said something straight up about it.

 

[Marvie_3]

Florida down to 53.8% on 538

 

[Aaron Strife]

But if you are combining polls, you have to also sum up the MoE for all the polls, so he is still in it technically. Romney is winning.

So what you're saying is, the MOE of all the polls is like +/- 600%?

Oh god. Biggest landslide since Reagan guys.

 

[Diablos]

Why do we care about Montana anyway, it's red, yo.

 

[AniHawk]

it's worth noting, the model projected obama would carry ohio by 3.4 points in 2008. he carried it by 4.6 points.

the model is currently forecasting a 3.1 point win, and there are two days left.

 

[Kevitivity]

Any chance this Iran thing is big news the next 2 days? This can only be positive news for Obama. And not in a slight way.

It's a pretty clear sign of who Iran wants to win.

 

[Marvie_3]

So what you're saying is, the MOE of all the polls is like +/- 600%?

Oh god. Biggest landslide since Reagan guys.

:lol

I would love to see Obama top Bush's 426 from '88 though

 

[B-Dubs]

It's a pretty clear sign of who Iran wants to win.

It's also a clear sign that no one involved in any of this shit wants a war and will work to prevent one.

 

[Diablos]

it's worth noting, the model projected obama would carry ohio by 3.4 points in 2008. he carried it by 4.6 points.

the model is currently forecasting a 3.1 point win, and there are two days left.

In 2008 then nation was swept by Obama fever though. It might be the opposite now for all we know -- i.e. 2.1 instead of 3.1

 

[Hitokage]

I'd presume that the odds of widespread polling error is included in that 15% Romney has.

 

[Black Mamba]

It's a pretty clear sign of who Iran wants to win.

The same as basically everyone else around the world?

Gee, I wonder why they wouldn't want someone to win with over 75% of Bush's neocon foreign policy team.

 

[el retorno]

Florida down to 53.8% on 538

Aren't all the states coin tosses? They're all one-off events.

 

[Kusagari]

It's a pretty clear sign of who Iran wants to win.

Iran doesn't want war rattling Romney in?

Shocking news!

 

[Hawkian]

I'd presume that the odds of widespread polling error is included in that 15% Romney has.

The odds of widespread polling bias are. Widespread polling error (i.e.: the methodology of polls is suddenly completely different than the actual behavior of American voters) is the only scenario in which Silver's model could wind up wrong.

 

[Marvie_3]

Aren't all the states coin tosses? They're all one-off events.

I just like seeing it turn less and less red. :lol

 

[AniHawk]

In 2008 then nation was swept by Obama fever though. It might be the opposite now for all we know -- i.e. 2.1 instead of 3.1

that's true. recent weeks have clearly shown waning support for the president instead of the exact opposite.

 

[Aaron Strife]

:lol

I would love to see Obama top Bush's 426 from '88 though

Well only one candidate has been able to top that, Dubya in 2000 with his 446 EVs. Lamestream media never saw it coming!

 

[Randolph Freelander]

I'd presume that the odds of widespread polling error is included in that 15% Romney has.

It's basically that, or rather, polling bias.

My argument, rather, is this: we’ve about reached the point where if Mr. Romney wins, it can only be because the polls have been biased against him. Almost all of the chance that Mr. Romney has in the FiveThirtyEight forecast, about 16 percent to win the Electoral College, reflects this possibility.

 

[Hawkian]

Well only one candidate has been able to top that, Dubya in 2000 with his 446 EVs. Lamestream media never saw it coming!

I reread this like six times trying to figure out what nightmarish echelon of Hell I had descended into.

 

[Marvie_3]

Well only one candidate has been able to top that, Dubya in 2000 with his 446 EVs. Lamestream media never saw it coming!

Damn liberal media (aka CNN) saw it coming but wanted to keep pushing the dead heat narrative.

 

[ryutaro's mama]

First I posted:

HANNITY: "Do you wonder why the Iranians want to make a deal now, at this point? The Iranians know that a Romney Administration will crack down on them so they would rather keep status quo in the White House so they can keep going with their nuke plans after the election."

And then Kev said:

It's a pretty clear sign of who Iran wants to win.

It writes itself.

 

[Randolph Freelander]

Florida down to 53.8% on 538

I think Silver has nothing left but self promotion.

Yeah, I was just reading this paper on it

Interesting paper from what I have (very briefly) skimmed, I will give it a deeper look tomorrow.

 

[Kevitivity]

It's also a clear sign that no one involved in any of this shit wants a war and will work to prevent one.

I agree but to not recognize when Iran is playing politics is a little foolish.