Abinash117
Member
If the church do change it's position on these issues anytime soon I wonder how it'll effect the christian community, especially with the older members.
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Pope Francis appears to be pushing reform on contraception/marriage/homosexuality
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Good explanation, if a bit of a letdown. Still, baby steps and all that I suppose.
Ether_Snake
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Churches are going to vanish either way, Catholic or others. Doesn't matter what the stances are, eventually everyone can tell their books have no more insight to provide us than non-religious people or documents could. There's no place for organizational doctrine in the 21st century.
I don't think this is really true. Conservative Protestants have grown very close to conservative Catholics politically in the years since deciding to organize around abortion and religious freedom to discriminate. Catholics now provide an intellectual backbone for social conservatism - they have available what look like reasonable arguments against things like gay marriage and abortion that aren't just obviously religious preference or outright bigotry. Protestants, especially evangelicals, tend to lack these in their own traditions because of more of an emphasis on the idea that God's message is accessible to everyone who reads the Bible or similar - they have much less of a tradition of trying to apply reason to faith. It's notable that a huge number of social conservatives who serve as intellectuals in the movement are Catholic, including a bunch of Supreme Court justices, a bunch of the folks at National Review, and leaders of organizations like Maggie Gallagher. Hell, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Megyn Kelly, and a whole bunch more at Fox are all Catholic. Cardinal Timothy Dolan is a frequent guest on various shows as a socially conservative voice of authority. I think probably the recent turning of conservative Protestants against contraception, or at least the right to it, is due to Catholic influence.
And so you really do see lots of people on the right freaking out when the Pope says something that's pro- social justice. Not only are lots of people with soapboxes Catholic themselves, but in general people look to the Church to provide a coherent philosophical system that justifies their political beliefs, and the suggestion that that system requires being nice to poor people is very threatening. I think the Pope coming out for gay marriage (which will not happen) would cause a pretty major blow up.
Abinash117
Member
Concerning the last few sentences; if that were to happen it would be the best time to be alive at least for me.
CadetMahoney
Member
Trust me, gay marriage and contraception will only be words from the Pope.
It will make it easier for laws to change in the U.S. but not in the third world.
Too many ppl have suffered from these policies for them to suddenly change their "opinion" that they're wrong all along.
"True believers" will suffer from too much cognitive dissonance and likewise the ppl who already disagree will see how they have no integrity to stand by their moral crusade because Catholic numbers are dwindling and they don't want to become small in numbers.
It will make it easier for laws to change in the U.S. but not in the third world.
Too many ppl have suffered from these policies for them to suddenly change their "opinion" that they're wrong all along.
"True believers" will suffer from too much cognitive dissonance and likewise the ppl who already disagree will see how they have no integrity to stand by their moral crusade because Catholic numbers are dwindling and they don't want to become small in numbers.
Yep. Don't get your hopes up.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Yep. People forget that Christianity, for all its Jewish roots, is Graeco-Roman by culture and that includes a highly rigorous (to the point of hair splitting) tradition of debate and scholarship in the Greek tradition (at least among the clergy). The Protestant Reformation, in part because of its democratising effect on the faith, really weakened this.
They said the exact same thing in the early 20th century, lol.
Ether_Snake
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And it's becoming increasingly true either way.
On the topic: this is mostly about South America. They are losing massive amounts of converts there. Just in Brasil, 40 years ago 90%+ of the population were catholic, now it's in the low 60%. There are a lot of young mothers raising children on their own in South America so the Catholic position is really not helping them.
20th century didn't have widespread internet though.
John Kowalski
Banned
The internet isn't curated nearly as well as it ought top be to present a challenge to centuries of history and art built in support of religions, and it would be very difficult to consolidate a substitute for the dogmatic doctrines, philosophically safe answers, social gatherings, goodwill towards the community, etc., that religions provide as institutions in the internet. If anything religions will become more focused on ideological doctrines that are palpable and promote tangible options to real world phenomena, but organizational doctrine isn't ever going to go away.
makingmusic476
Member
This won't change the hearts and minds of the old crowd (some of my family are still up in arms about Vatican II), and it'll push more into fringe, traditionalist organizations, but the amount of younger, lapsed Catholics it would probably attract back to the Church will more than make up for it.
It'll be interesting to see how the front line Priests handle this. I seem to recall the clergy embracing, if not strongly pushing for Vatican II, and I wonder how many would be cool to see long standing moral codes flipped upside down.
Hell, many in the Southern US are still young earthers, even though the Church officially supports Evolution.
It'll be interesting to see how the front line Priests handle this. I seem to recall the clergy embracing, if not strongly pushing for Vatican II, and I wonder how many would be cool to see long standing moral codes flipped upside down.
Hell, many in the Southern US are still young earthers, even though the Church officially supports Evolution.
Ether_Snake
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It's the opposite, people just want to be able to baptize their kids, marry in front of a priest, etc., but they want nothing to do with the doctrine.
CountAntonius
Member
This is good. It may just be calculated to get more young people to join the church but I don't see any negatives coming from it. Doesn't matter where you stand on religion it's here and having a figurehead who is progressive and trying to steer his church away from the old ways of thinking is a great.
John Kowalski
Banned
That's not an opposite, that a factor i hadn't taken into consideration, which is culture expressing itself through traditions. That doesn't mean that they aren't keen on the doctrines themselves, but that those events have transcended their nature as religious events and have become cultural events, becoming secular in a sense.
People still want doctrines, and in fact they do still group and revel in their beliefs, whether they concern art, politics, socio-economics, human rights, whatever. The divine content of religions might come to deteriorate with time, if it ever will, but the nature of the organization most definitely will adapt itself to contemporary needs rather than simply vanish.
Ether_Snake
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The bigger the organization the slower it will be to adapt, so it will always be losing and increasing number of converts. Look at Brazil, they have been going from catholic to evangelists of which there are countless groups, which fracture into so many groups that they all become ultimately irrelevant. They can't all hold "the truth", and this becomes clear when everyone you know is going to a different church, if at all. Then all that remains are the weddings, the baptism, political activism, etc., not the doctrine.
If the divine content/God/hell vanishes, what's the point? The church would turn into nothing but a communal place and perhaps a charity. Which is already possible to have without any religious influence.
What kind of doctrine could they enforce that people would actually want to follow when you can't push heaven or hell?
No, it's not. The epicenter of religion may be moving, but religious numbers are growing, not waning.
The internet is being used to spread religion.
It's also used to learn about the truth. Chances are through much of the 20th century, you would've been raised in some sort of religious family. The internet is a huge boon to scientific and historical information, and you can casually search for a good amount of it without having to dig for and read books. You can also connect with non-religious people. Pre-internet, your community was likely to be religious, you would have less reason to disbelieve with a relative lack of and ease of access to information, and you would have few places to turn to if you were having doubts.
Religion still has its platform on the internet no doubt, but now it's much more easily possible to get the two sides of the story.
Also, where do you get this information?
If you guys are expecting the Pope to upend everything the Catholic church teaches about marriage, reproductive issues, and sexuality, you are going to be disappointed.
You might expect some softening on certain forms of contraception, but that's about it.
You might expect some softening on certain forms of contraception, but that's about it.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
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CountAntonius
Member
You were just as likely to grow up in a strictly atheist household in the 20th century in China, USSR, etc.
With the fall of communism has come the opening of billions of people who were formerly atheist as potential new converts, as religion is quickly growing in China, for example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of_religion#Overall_statistics
According to this, atheism grew at an astounding rate during the 20th century, but has since, slowed down drastically.
What tends to happen in these discussions is that people tend to focus too greatly on the West, and forget about the rest of the world.
I really can't agree with this idea that religion is going to eventually die out, though I guess as someone who is religious it's hard for me to adequately argue that without being biased. But like, even looking at things from a secular viewpoint, I feel like some people will always believe in some spiritual or divine beings in some form, even if there isn't any cold, hard scientific evidence of it. And I find it hard to believe that there will come a time when people stop creating sets of beliefs and practices around that supernatural being they believe exists.
I've taken religious studies classes, an explanation I read in a book I read for one (I can't remember who wrote it so I can't attribute it to him) that makes sense to me is that religion is basically like a good that churches sell to people. People buy into religion when the demand for it is there because situations in the lives of people and the world around them cause them to want to buy into some sort of religious dogma. It's difficult for me to believe that the demand for religious dogma will ever reach literally zero.
I've taken religious studies classes, an explanation I read in a book I read for one (I can't remember who wrote it so I can't attribute it to him) that makes sense to me is that religion is basically like a good that churches sell to people. People buy into religion when the demand for it is there because situations in the lives of people and the world around them cause them to want to buy into some sort of religious dogma. It's difficult for me to believe that the demand for religious dogma will ever reach literally zero.
In China it is likely you would've been born in Buddhism, Confucianism, Taosim, or the folk religions. In the USSR, sure. America, Europe, the Middle East, and other regions would've been more religious though.
I question that there were billions of atheists before Communism fell.
All religious/nonreligious labels have grown in general since the population also grew a lot in the 20th century. The internet is relatively new. I definitely don't see religion disappearing in the 21st century, but I wonder how it'll look like 100 years from now, 200, 300, etc.
The dogma will never reach "literally zero". There's always going to be someone who follows it. But it can be diminished far enough that many or most don't adhere to it, and even the ones that do, aren't conservative. Possibly within a few centuries.
Dude, what? There was instituted atheism in China.
What do you mean nobody has been talking about this? I think I even brought this up in the last Pope Francis thread.
Edit: Oh, it's a formal synod. Never mind, I don't think it's ever been focused or as organized as in this instance. Carry on. Big things may be happening.
Edit 2: ...or not.
Edit: Oh, it's a formal synod. Never mind, I don't think it's ever been focused or as organized as in this instance. Carry on. Big things may be happening.
Edit 2: ...or not.
sandalphon
Member
Right direction to take for the antiquated religion. Keep on keepin' on, Frank.
This doesn't mean that the followers of those religions just entirely dropped their faith.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Even a slight change of policy vis-a-vis the use of condoms would do a lot to advance the fight against HIV and empower people to raise their children's standard of living by helping limit family size.
Many of those principles are hideously backwards. I think a more interesting tangent is what would have happened without Vatican II.
I guess this makes more sense, but I still don't completely buy it. I do think we'll eventually reach a point where the conservative ideologies born from religion are basically dead, and followers of religion will essentially interpret their faith to the point where any politically conservatism that could be related to religion no longer exists and is ignored.
Yeah, it wouldn't take much, even just a reduction in opposing their use by other groups would help.
Zero will change. At most they may revise some of the language in which they couch their teaching on some of these issues, but the core teaching will remain. From what I've read, this synod is about figuring out why there's such a disconnect between Catholic teaching and the lives and practice of so many who identify as Catholic - but any bridging of the gap will be about massaging the message to attempt to bring the latter closer to the former, and not vice versa.
Not that a change to some of the language wouldn't be welcome mind you (the language used around homosexuality in humane vitae is horrid). But I don't see any core changes to teaching.
(And come to think of it, this would be rather fitting. Francis, tbph, has sofar been a nicer PR gloss for the Church and nothing more.)
Not that a change to some of the language wouldn't be welcome mind you (the language used around homosexuality in humane vitae is horrid). But I don't see any core changes to teaching.
(And come to think of it, this would be rather fitting. Francis, tbph, has sofar been a nicer PR gloss for the Church and nothing more.)
Masquerader
Member
I'm starting to find being a Catholic almost... Palatable.
teruterubozu
Member
Vatican III or I call bullshit.
Hours Left
Member
Pull a Microsoft and skip to Vatican IV.
It has everything to do with that. They know if they carried on as they were (as with most religion in the western world (aside from Islam and some others I'm sure) that numbers would eventually get so low they would become insignificant. Already happening in the UK.
It's all disingenious to me and people should think very hard about all the shady stuff that goes on within the Vatican before clapping for this guy.
The words of the pope have more worth than the words of some politican even without action. There are thousands, maybe millions of people worldwide who value his opiniom and the very least its a point where open discussion can begin within the church.
And again: its already a lot more than the last popes did for the world. He don't have to please people, he don't have to be re-elected.
Alcoremortis
Member
I think Benedict already approved condoms, but only for use in Africa to combat HIV
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