RoyaleDuke
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Indeed Monocle, Indeed.
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Pope Francis appears to be pushing reform on contraception/marriage/homosexuality
- Thread starter viciouskillersquirrel
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Indeed Monocle, Indeed.
ComputerMKII
Banned
Except the Pope is supposed to be the voice of God on Earth, I.E. his Emissary.
He's just the head of the Catholic church and bishop of Rome. I think you're confusing the Pope with Jesus Christ.
SteveWinwood
Member
Except the Pope is supposed to be the voice of God on Earth, I.E. his Emissary.
That means after thousands of years of misinformation God is telling the Pope to tell people to stop caring about people's sexuality, and that no, they won't burn in Hell and we don't need to push intolerance on people.
yeah man he should really just be like
oh you guys talk to god?
yeah he talks to me more cause im the fucking pope and you guys are just bishops
god told me that you guys need to go fuck yourselves
ComputerMKII
Banned
According to Italian newspaper Repubblica, some conservative Cardinals secretly approached pope emeritus Benedict XVI so that he intervenes in their favor. Benedict, however, refused to criticize Francis and said 'I'm not the pope, Francis is the one who decides.'
Call me a tinfoil but I think this "progressive pope" thing is a front the Catholic Church is using to draw attention away from their corruption.
Turns out there's more than one Catholic in the world and more than one hour in the day. There's quite a lot of capacity for attention paying.
You're a tinfoil.
Call me a tinfoil but I think this "progressive pope" thing is a front the Catholic Church is using to draw attention away from their corruption.
It's a literal city of self delusion. I don't care WHY the message is changing, only that the message is changing.
If the new Pope's more liberal beliefs are heard by even a portion of young Catholics, maybe the Church won't be quite so awful in the future.
Does he have health problems? Why would he die within a year?This was the church last chance. Francis won't probably live for another year and all his effor would go to waste. Hopefuly the next pope is as progressive as he is.
All of these needs to happen.abortion, contraception, homosexuality and divorce
I have a catholic girlfriend (I'm an atheist) and she has told me she'll keep a baby if she was to ever accidentally become pregnant. Disregarding facts like the fetus for many weeks having the 'consciousness' of an amoeba.
There are rumors that he has an illness, he has said he doesn't have much time left. It's a shame, really :/Does he have health problems? Why would he die within a year?
All of these needs to happen.
I have a catholic girlfriend (I'm an atheist) and she has told me she'll keep a baby if she was to ever accidentally become pregnant. Disregarding facts like the fetus for many weeks having the 'consciousness' of an amoeba.
uh, you do realize that problem with catholic church and abortion is not their stance of treating it as contraception (which you are mentioning), but rather that they dont allow it under any circumstance including rape victims and such. I dont think Church should ever accept it as contraception method.
Same goes for divorce... I doubt church will ever accept that people should have 10 church weddings if they want, but there should be some circumstances where it is fine.
When it comes to all of those, I am firm believer in choice and people should chose what they want to do with their life. But I dont think Church should make it easy for them.
As to OT, this is great... things are moving... Rome was not built in a day. Hopefully this starts a shift in thinking and finally in few years we might have same sex marriages in Church.
andrerobot
Member
All of these needs to happen.
I have a catholic girlfriend (I'm an atheist) and she has told me she'll keep a baby if she was to ever accidentally become pregnant. Disregarding facts like the fetus for many weeks having the 'consciousness' of an amoeba.
It not about consciousness, it's about being a person with a soul, which is what Catholics believe (I think).
CrunchyFrog
Member
Hopefully this starts a shift in thinking and finally in few years we might have same sex marriages in Church.
Except that was not the aim of this session, nor even in the proposed changes. Homosexuality and homosexual unions in the Catholic church are pretty clearly out on a fundamental dogmatic level, and a reinterpretation counter to that is nigh impossible and would likely cause a 2nd great schism if it did come about. The changes proposed here were meant to be a reemphasis on neglected parts of Catholic social teaching specifically as geared towards homosexuals, to promote a welcoming attitude and respect for homosexuals as for any other human being in spite of their actions. I.E. someone being homosexual or committing homosexual acts does not give you free license to shun or ostracize them out of existence, they are just as much in need of love and care as any other person. One can care for someone else without fully condoning their behavior. Despite the actions of many Christians/religious, it has always been the position of the Church that one should love the sinner and hate the sin, tracing back to the actions of Jesus Christ himself in hanging out and identifying with sociocultural outcasts like Samaritans, prostitutes, Roman tax collectors, and Gentiles/pagans/non-Jewish peoples. These changes were proposed to more clearly codify that in the context of today, but sadly even that was apparently deemed too far by certain bishops.
CadetMahoney
Member
It not about consciousness, it's about being a person with a soul, which is what Catholics believe (I think).
Funny thing with Catholicism is that they did a u-turn on that twice if you look at their history. They even said early abortion wasn't even manslaughter in 1140. The average pro-lifer will ignore all this though and have probably never read about it.
That's sad to hear. Supposedly the job as pope is also quite stressful, which doesn't mix well with old age.There are rumors that he has an illness, he has said he doesn't have much time left. It's a shame, really :/
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
Funny thing with Catholicism is that they did a u-turn on that twice if you look at their history. They even said early abortion wasn't even manslaughter in 1140. The average pro-lifer will ignore all this though and have probably never read about it.
I remember this blog post being posted on GAF ages ago about this very thing:
<removed link>
Unfortunately I don't have another source; I'm unfamiliar with this blog so I don't know how trustworthy it's considered to be. It's an interesting read, nonetheless.
Edit: Oops, the post I was going to link is about Protestants, not Catholics. My mistake!
Im all for a zero tolerance stance on divorce and birth control. You cant be lenient even in the wording. Its like if you tell your kid 'No smoking, ever.' Its obviously a lot less impactful if you said 'No smoking, but if you do, I wont hate you.' You might as well be endorsing it cause thats how people will see it.
This doesnt really make sense. Its reasonable to assume the church has been against abortion for as long as theyve been against contraception, and for the same reasons.I remember this blog post being posted on GAF ages ago about this very thing:
The 'biblical view' that's younger than the Happy Meal
Unfortunately I don't have another source; I'm unfamiliar with this blog so I don't know how trustworthy it's considered to be. It's an interesting read, nonetheless.
I remember this blog post being posted on GAF ages ago about this very thing:
The 'biblical view' that's younger than the Happy Meal
Unfortunately I don't have another source; I'm unfamiliar with this blog so I don't know how trustworthy it's considered to be. It's an interesting read, nonetheless.
That's about evangelicalism. Catholics were opponents of abortion from pretty early on, and are in general more consistent than Protestants on all sorts of doctrinal points, because they have codified doctrine. Protestants have that priesthood of all believers thing and are much more willing to disagree with previous generations about what the Bible means. So Protestants have been all over the place on abortion because it's not like the Bible is very clear on the subject, and only relatively recently has it become such a big deal for conservative Protestants. Wikipedia has Catholics equating all abortion and murder since 1870, so the moment-of-conception stuff is relatively novel, but you can go back to Aquinas to see denunciations of abortion at any point as a grave sin.
Edit: It should probably be noted that individual Catholics are also all over the place, and in the US Catholics look a lot like the population at large when it comes to their views on abortion.
Im all for a zero tolerance stance on divorce and birth control. You cant be lenient even in the wording. Its like if you tell your kid 'No smoking, ever.' Its obviously a lot less impactful if you said 'No smoking, but if you do, I wont hate you.'
This doesnt really make sense. Its reasonable to assume the church has been against abortion for as long as theyve been against contraception, and for the same reasons.
The Church has always been against the termination of life and Abortion has always been considered murder. What was debated in the early days was when the Soul entered existence as that was considered the benchmark of life. Some early theology types opined it came after 40 days in the womb so even if following that teaching abortion would be considered murder after the first month basically. Eventually it was settled the soul is present from the start.
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
That's about evangelicalism. Catholics were opponents of abortion from pretty early on, and are in general more consistent than Protestants on all sorts of doctrinal points, because they have codified doctrine. Protestants have that priesthood of all believers thing and are much more willing to disagree with previous generations about what the Bible means. So Protestants have been all over the place on abortion because it's not like the Bible is very clear on the subject, and only relatively recently has it become such a big deal for conservative Protestants. Wikipedia has Catholics equating all abortion and murder since 1870, so the moment-of-conception stuff is relatively novel, but you can go back to Aquinas to see denunciations of abortion at any point as a grave sin.
Oh, you're right. Sorry, I don't know how I made that mistake. I'll remove the link.
CadetMahoney
Member
The Church has always been against the termination of life and Abortion has always been considered murder.
I know your banned, but this is categorically untrue. http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showre...ication&pgnu=4&groupnum=2&record_bookmark=681
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The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the church in 1140. As this collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917...
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A stance that continued until 1869. p.s. it wasn't even manslaughter. The concept of ensoulment was also categorically not set at conception throughout, something only found out in the 19th century. Also in context of waning Catholic numbers and the pope trying to change some outlooks, look at history:
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. . .with its declining Catholic population. In Italy, during the years 1848 to 1870, the papal states shrank from almost one-third of the country to what is now Vatican City. It has been argued that the Pope's restriction on abortion was motivated by a need to strengthen the Churchs spiritual control over its followers in the face of this declining political power."
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http://shorttext.com/5dae418c
Most people believe that the Roman Catholic church's position on abortion has remained unchanged for two thousand years. Not true.
Members of the Catholic hierarchy have opposed abortion consistently as evidence of sexual sin, but they have not always seen early abortion as homicide. Contrary to conventional wisdom, the "right-to-life" argument is a relatively recent development in church teaching. Also contrary to popular belief, no pope has proclaimed the prohibition of abortion an "infallible" teaching.
The campaign by Pope John Paul II to make his position on abortion the defining one at the United Nations International Conference on Population and Development in 1994 was just one leg of a long journey of shifting views within the Catholic church. In the fifth century a.d., St. Augustine expressed the mainstream view that early abortion required penance only for sexual sin. Eight centuries later, St. Thomas Aquinas agreed, saying abortion was not homicide unless the fetus was "ensouled," and ensoulment, he was sure, occurred well after conception. The position that abortion is a serious sin akin to murder and is grounds for excommunication only became established 150 years ago.
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