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Post-Women's March: white women, working class, and people might need to reflect

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I'm more and more convinced that the problem with this topic is more how the OP was organized (shitty with a few shitty examples) than the general topic (which is true and worth having a discussion about).



I won't stan for that first tweet at all but that photo seems to me to obviously not be an attack on these 3 women specifically but the voting patterns of White Women in general. The BonB crime comparison feels a little disingenuous as in that example one would be trying to express either ignorance or is an attempt to agitate. This clearly seems to be an expression of frustration and betrayal?
Frustration? It's misdirected ire at the nearest targets who happen to look like the people who actually are the problem. And the intent to agitate and make a point is clear enough, even if it doesn't stem from the same levels of bigotry. Honestly, I'm legitimately exhausted by this entire discussion. The divisiveness in this thread is more than I've experienced on the ground in any protest I've been to, more than I saw in Chicago on the day of. What should these women be doing more?
 
Asking why 51% of white women voted for an unrepentant misogynistic rapist is part of that.

We already know the answer: Because non-college-educated whites went heavily towards Trump in large numbers regardless of gender.

Stop wasting time on "Why did so many white women vote for Trump?" (especially when it's not even like Trump won by large margins among that group) and focus more on "Why did so many uneducated whites vote for Trump?".
 

LionPride

Banned
Perhaps, but the order goes race, then gender. How does that ordering of priorities make me a misogynist or a mens rights advocate? Race subsumes both genders.
No, Race issues = Gender issues


So you don't have a rebuttal then? Because how can "ask yourselves why 53% of you voted for Trump" not, at the very VERY least, imply some sort of racial responsibility? I'd like at least some part of my post to be properly rebuked.



This is revisionist history. If you look back at the election the constant infighting between Bernie supporters and Clinton supporters was a pretty major thing. Did you not see the protests during the DNC? That's certainly a lot more than just one thread on GAF.
People understood it wouldn't amount to anything in all likelihood and people have been fighting since then because IDK. But now people are acting as if the Democratic party will fracture
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Sorry to hear about that white kid that got bully, and that white kid should get help if that kid haven't yet. Also I wish the white kid the best in everything.

But now imagine if the white kid is black and went through the same situation (kinda). And people in power and the history of the country look down on the kid. And not only the black kid will be hurt by the bullying, but the black kid children, and their children, no matter where they live next. And the black kid's parents and their parents most likely went through worse. Imagine even in a low income environment, it might still be hard for the black kid family to live in because of real estate policy. That black kid might have a bad relationship with authority in his environment and in general. That black kid, if the kid follows a bad path, he might get harder sentences because he's black.

Sadly that kid didn't get the help he needed and is dead now. Killed himself, after being harassed at a party.

Yes black people go through some fucking real bullshit and that's all stuff that needs to be taken seriously and progressively but fucking downplaying the issues others have in life because one group has it worse never fucking solves anything. Yeah the white privilege shit is there but it's not some fucking magical shield that makes white people of every walk of life immune to the bullshit of life and the shitty judgmental nature of people.
 
This is something that's sort of weird to me about this conversation. 50% isn't some magical threshold. Like, if 51% of white women had broken for Clinton would this still be a thing? The difference between that and what actually happened is pretty small - it's 1 in 25 white women. The difference between that world and this one probably wouldn't show up in most people's close social circles. If you wouldn't be really concerned about trying to understand and criticize white women's collective politics in that case then it's really kind of weird to be concerned about it now. It's the same politics 96% of the time.

I know it's not what you're asking, but it's highly probably that this wouldn't be a thing if 51% of white women had broken for Clinton.

Because we quite probably wouldn't have had a march at all on Saturday. That would have been what, a 2% swing of the total vote?
 

Plum

Member
People understood it wouldn't amount to anything in all likelihood and people have been fighting since then because IDK. But now people are acting as if the Democratic party will fracture

What? It amounted to Trump winning along with the Republicans taking every part of the government in an overwhelming majority. The divide in the left is one of the major reasons why that happened. The Democratic party WILL fracture if they don't find a unifying person to rally behind; this kind of rhetoric is not helping at all.
 
Sadly that kid didn't get the help he needed and is dead now. Killed himself, after being harassed at a party.

Yes black people go through some fucking real bullshit and that's all stuff that needs to be taken seriously and progressively but fucking downplaying the issues others have in life because one group has it worse never fucking solves anything. Yeah the white privilege shit is there but it's not some fucking magical shield that makes white people of every walk of life immune to the bullshit of life and the shitty judgmental nature of people.

When black people want their issues listened to, they are told time and again 'yeah but what about white people's issues?'

What about them? Those already get way more fucking focus and attention.
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
Get the hell out of here with this bullshit. Who in this thread is saying women of color should be silenced, particularly in regards to this march? There were countless signs and chants advocating for African-Americans (and specifically BLM), immigrants, and Muslims. And the march's organizers were women of color!

All the reactionaries that defer to this being divisive without considering the validity of those women of colors grievances.

And yes the organizers were women of color, bu you clearly haven't been following this march from the beginning when it wasn't inclusive, WOC were brought into the fold, it was originally white women and they had co-opted "The million woman march" name. This march almost ended up like the one in portland where issues that affect women of color and lgbtq were completely omitted, and discussion of Trump, because those organizers deemed it too political; prompting the NAACP to pull support. FOH
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
The 30% of hispanics voting for Trump is way more mystifying than 50% of white women voting for him to me. I expected women in red states to still vote for Trump. They ate up his lies.
 
We already know the answer: Because non-college-educated whites went heavily towards Trump in large numbers regardless of gender.

Stop wasting time on "Why did so many white women vote for Trump?" (especially when it's not even like Trump won by large margins among that group) and focus more on "Why did so many uneducated whites vote for Trump?".

I think both questions are worth asking, and that asking questions isn't a waste of time. Even if you already know the answer, there are a lot of people that don't, and going through the process is how people get educated.
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
Perhaps, but the order goes race, then gender. How does that ordering of priorities make me a misogynist or a mens rights advocate? Race subsumes both genders.
First, who the fuck are you to decide about this "order"? What if I say, no, the order is gender, then race, because women are 50% of the population and there are women of all races. What then.

Besides, ordering things like that will invariably dismiss the issues of people lower down in your little list. You know what's more important than race? Climate change. It affects everyone of all races and gender and also all life forms on Earth.

Now imagine if I came in a BLM thread to talk about climate change. That's essentially what you're doing here. Worse, you're actively telling black women how to behave ("they gotta support their men"). That's insulting as fuck.
 

LionPride

Banned
What? It amounted to Trump winning along with the Republicans taking every part of the government in an overwhelming majority. The divide in the left is one of the major reasons why that happened. The Democratic party WILL fracture if they don't find a unifying person to rally behind; this kind of rhetoric is not helping at all.

This is demonstrably not true, both on GAF and the real world.
If every Bernie voter, voted for Hillary, she would have won. That was never gonna happen. I kinda zoned the fuck out once he lost and I saw people blaming Black people for why Bernie lost so excuse me if I am wrong
 

Gotchaye

Member
I know it's not what you're asking, but it's highly probably that this wouldn't be a thing if 51% of white women had broken for Clinton.

Because we quite probably wouldn't have had a march at all on Saturday. That would have been what, a 3% swing of the total vote?

Right, sure, so give Trump a little bit more Rust Belt support, assume particularly high turnout in California and New York, maybe some terrible weather in some red states. Given the result we got, it's not crazy to think that Clinton could still have won white women and lost the election. But yeah, if white women went 4% more for Clinton and 4% less for Trump that'd be a good chunk of the popular vote.
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
The 30% of hispanics voting for Trump is way more mystifying than 50% of white women voting for him to me. I expected women in red states to still vote for Trump. They ate up his lies.


I think that's more complex, since hispanic is pretty broad. There are plenty of white hispanics, white cubans. There's also self loathing and conservatism to consider. Probably just harder to quantify.
 
It always amazes me how hard it is for people to dump what they think they know and just listen to people of color. Just listen. It's not that hard.
 

Crocodile

Member
I feel like we're just in a circular argument here because the message of the image is not just a statement of fact, it's implying that, despite protesting, that those three women or whomever Torraine was talking, were still in some way responsible for letting Trump women. They're offended because they're being implicated as the enemy for doing nothing at all. Again, if someone were to post a "53% of White Women voted Trump" thread none of this discussion would be had. Torraine even used the term "Why 53% of you," which, if that isn't clearly saying "you had some part in this," then I don't know what is. People are mad because they imply that it does apply to them and/or their family, not because of the fact itself.

As for the people saying "This is why Trump won," they aren't saying "People will vote for Trump specifically because of this," they are looking at the hard truth that, if we don't unite as a whole, the left will not get the supporters it needs from the moderate and disenfranchised to ever have a chance of winning. I'm a Brit and this is exactly what's happened with our liberal Labour party; an "all or nothing" sector has pushed away the more moderate sector (and vice-versa) leading to total uselessness as people are more focused on infighting than anything else. The fact is that, if the left is to be seen as strong, we don't need this type of criticism at all; fight the actual enemy that's visible and clear, not leftist Clinton supporters that happen to be white. The only goal right now is making sure Trump loses some power in 2018, and all of it in 2020; there is literally no other way things can change as without political backing minorities only have themselves and legally powerless allies to support them.

The tweet was bad (though it is true in a general sense, not necessarily pertaining to the March, that often times people will say they are with you but not actually do the work when it matters). However I just disagree that the photo was an attack on those three individual women. It just wasn't and its a waste of time to think it is. People need to stop being bothered by it - its a non-issue. People don't need to be raging assholes when they are making criticisms but "PoC should just shut up" is just not a reasonable expectation. Especially since we are, Black Women especially, are some of the most reliable voters in the country. People tell us to shut up all the time. We want to work in harmony with everybody towards a common goal that benefits everybody. However the only way to get more White people to work with us is at least to acknowledge problems (the only way to solve them) and that includes how White people overall, again not necessarily marchers, vote. I've explained it before and I'm sure you probably already understand this but that woman got fucking stabbed in the back this election in a way I'm not sure enough people appreciate. She mad. However pages and pages talking about her and that photo rather than the bigger issues just confuses me.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
When black people want their issues listened to, they are told time and again 'yeah but what about white people's issues?'

What about them? Those already get way more fucking focus and attention.

And black people should get their issues listened to just as much. The problem is that very "what about them". That's not gonna get people to take you as serious. It paints this image you don't care about the general people and care about only that issue. That creates friction.
 
First, who the fuck are you to decide about this "order"? What if I say, no, the order is gender, then race, because women are 50% of the population and there are women of all races. What then.

Besides, ordering things like that will invariably dismiss the issues of people lower down in your little list. You know what's more important than race? Climate change. It affects everyone of all races and gender and also all life forms on Earth.

Now imagine if I came in a BLM thread to talk about climate change. That's essentially what you're doing here. Worse, you're actively telling black women how to behave ("they gotta support their men"). That's insulting as fuck.

You know how we solve climate change? By treating people who don't look like us like they're still people, so we can actually do some real work together.

I didn't decide that this is the order, but this is what the evidence reveals. Refer to an earlier post in this thread about the relatively passive approach the police took to the women's march compared to BLM. How white women were hi-fiving police officers.

It is terribly insulting for white women to be stealing the limelight right now.
 

Staccat0

Fail out bailed
People know Trump won becuase of turnout right? I'm wondering if people think this 53% represents anything meaningful beyond "Republicans voted and are still white"

This is something that's sort of weird to me about this conversation. 50% isn't some magical threshold. Like, if 51% of white women had broken for Clinton would this still be a thing? The difference between that and what actually happened is pretty small - it's 1 in 25 white women. The difference between that world and this one probably wouldn't show up in most people's close social circles. If you wouldn't be really concerned about trying to understand and criticize white women's collective politics in that case then it's really kind of weird to be concerned about it now. It's the same politics 96% of the time.

I think this is a fair point.
 
And black people should get their issues listened to just as much. The problem is that very "what about them". That's not gonna get people to take you as serious. It paints this image you don't care about the general people and care about only that issue. That creates friction.

This is the same logic I've heard from people advocating a 'Men's Issues' day in UK politics because there's a day specifically set aside for women's issues.

Plus, notice how you say 'people' and 'general people' when you mean *white* people.

Again, maybe ask yourself why you did that.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
If every Bernie voter, voted for Hillary, she would have won. That was never gonna happen. I kinda zoned the fuck out once he lost and I saw people blaming Black people for why Bernie lost so excuse me if I am wrong

What. Where is this coming from?
 

Zoc

Member
I think maybe what would help (for those who can't see people as individuals) is if maybe whites who protest actually organized under generalization. Individualizing as an ally is not as impactful to many as pushing to become an ally as a nationality. Saying something like "whites against bigotry" would start painting the image that the biggots are a smaller rougue faction making them seem like the odd ones out or a blot, not the norm of what being white is.

This is a really good idea that probably hasn't occurred to a lot of people. It makes me want to get a "white man against trump" Tshirt made.
 
I think both questions are worth asking, and that asking questions isn't a waste of time. Even if you already know the answer, there are a lot of people that don't, and going through the process is how people get educated.

But whether or not someone is a white women didn't factor much into who they voted for.

Whether or not someone is an uneducated white DID factor a lot into who they voted for.

If anything, we should be happy that even in the Red Rural Wave of 2016, Hillary managed to outperform even Obama's margins with regards to college-educated white women.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
This is the same logic I've heard from people advocating a 'Men's Issues' day in UK politics because there's a day specifically set aside for women's issues.

Plus, notice how you say 'people' and 'general people' when you mean *white* people.

Again, maybe ask yourself why you did that.

Or maybe I mean general people because I said general people. :D

Sorry buddy, I don't give a fuck about a particular group of people any more than others. Everyone is equal in my eyes until hateful/harmful personal actions dictate otherwise. And only then I judge that single person
 

megalowho

Member
People know Trump won becuase of turnout right? I'm wondering if people think this 53% represents anything meaningful beyond "Republicans voted and are still white"
It's crazy that "convince Trump voters they're wrong and should feel sorry" is even a talking point when half the country didn't vote. Focus on the disenfranchised, the uneducated, the apathetic. Who cares about conservative white women who voted for their team.
 
And black people should get their issues listened to just as much. The problem is that very "what about them". That's not gonna get people to take you as serious. It paints this image you don't care about the general people and care about only that issue. That creates friction.

I dont see where you'd get that perception from. Black women in particular are always answering the call for other people's civil rights issues and that love is never fully reciprocated. Not by Black men & especially not by White feminists.
 

D i Z

Member
All the reactionaries that defer to this being divisive without considering the validity of those women of colors grievances.

And yes the organizers were women of color, bu you clearly haven't been following this march from the beginning when it wasn't inclusive, WOC were brought into the fold, it was originally white women and they had co-opted "The million woman march" name. This march almost ended up like the one in portland where issues that affect women of color and lgbtq were completely omitted, and discussion of Trump, because those organizers deemed it too political; prompting the NAACP to pull support. FOH

.
 
This is something that's sort of weird to me about this conversation. 50% isn't some magical threshold. Like, if 51% of white women had broken for Clinton would this still be a thing? The difference between that and what actually happened is pretty small - it's 1 in 25 white women. The difference between that world and this one probably wouldn't show up in most people's close social circles. If you wouldn't be really concerned about trying to understand and criticize white women's collective politics in that case then it's really kind of weird to be concerned about it now. It's the same politics 96% of the time.

Uhhh...what?

It absolutely matters when Clinton lost Wisconsin by 0.8%. Do the math.
 

celljean89

Neo Member
Sadly that kid didn't get the help he needed and is dead now. Killed himself, after being harassed at a party.

Yes black people go through some fucking real bullshit and that's all stuff that needs to be taken seriously and progressively but fucking downplaying the issues others have in life because one group has it worse never fucking solves anything. Yeah the white privilege shit is there but it's not some fucking magical shield that makes white people of every walk of life immune to the bullshit of life and the shitty judgmental nature of people.


I'm sorry to hear about the kid's death. I know how it is with getting bullying and mental illness. No one deserves to go through that.

But I'm not downplaying any other group for another. White Privilege and Systemic Racism is top of everything in the US, and many other parts of the world. And to see people denial that, is sad and the deniable is part of white privilege. I wish I could said it's all equal with racism, but with power it's not. It effects every POC, and some people won't even acknowledge it. That's our system if you don't wanna see it or not.
 

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
I dont see where you'd get that perception from. Black women in particular are always answering the call for other people's civil rights issues and that love is never fully reciprocated. Not by Black men & especially not by White feminists.
And that's fucking awesome of them and shitty of the others. I'm moreso addressing when people make arguments and always drop the "who cares about them they got this and this" type argument. That doesn't help shit.

The way things are said paints a negative or positive image of someones argument very easily in the minds of others. You have to get the point across that you just want the very same things without coming across as spiteful and that shit can be hard specially if you have bad history with said events in relation to it.
 

Crocodile

Member
I don't know is it possible for a white child to grow up in a multi-culture low income environment and be harassed and assaulted for being white and later in life feel extra mental weight from bigoted white insults? Probably. It's not common but it happens. But it's ok right? He's white fuck the history of his own life. His race has had it made in the big times.

And black people should get their issues listened to just as much. The problem is that very "what about them". That's not gonna get people to take you as serious. It paints this image you don't care about the general people and care about only that issue. That creates friction.

C'mon man. This isn't and never has been "who cares about white people?" or that anyone actually believes that no white person has it bad. I know you know better but what you are expressing is what people feel when they misunderstand "White Privilege". The human experience is complicated and different individuals have things better than others for a variety of different reasons. That doesn't change the fact that if you keep other variables constant, its better to be White than Non-White. That doesn't mean all White people are living the high life but rather one option is usually better than the other. I mean what if we instead of White/Non-White we talked about Men/Women? There are issues that Men suffer exclusive to them but on average, if all other variables were kept the same, would you argue with a straight face that its better to be a Woman in this environment?

"White people have certain advantages" or "White people have often voted in ways that have hurt minorities (and themselves) or been unsympathetic to minorities" (which are both objectively true) has never meant and never will mean "fuck all White people".

Frustration? It's misdirected ire at the nearest targets who happen to look like the people who actually are the problem. And the intent to agitate and make a point is clear enough, even if it doesn't stem from the same levels of bigotry. Honestly, I'm legitimately exhausted by this entire discussion. The divisiveness in this thread is more than I've experienced on the ground in any protest I've been to, more than I saw in Chicago on the day of. What should these women be doing more?

I guess it comes down to if you think that woman was calling out those three specific women or the voting patterns of White Women overall last November. I just think its the later. I guess agree to disagree?
 
I'm a white woman who voted for Clinton, surrounded by white women who voted for Trump. The way conversations were going before election day, I was convinced these women would vote against their party to prevent a misogynist from getting in. You could say I was shocked and disappointed.

I have a responsibility to talk to these women, not only in my own self-interest, but for the minorities who will suffer from their dumb decision.

In other words, I see that sign in the OP as being directed at those like me, and I'm okay with that.

That being said, comments like the Tweet appear to be attacking the "47%" directly, as if they themselves are responsible for everyone in their demographic, which isn't very helpful.
 
So... #NotAllWhiteWomen ?

It's not hard to understand that this sign isn't about the women who were marching, but about the ones who voted for Trump.

Making a face while holding your sign in front of them and then being passive aggressive about it on Twitter sends a different message.
 

LionPride

Banned
This attitude is what isn't needed. If you keep it, you arent helping. In fact, you're undoing to work of people that really are helping.

I'm not helping? I'm not helping because I think that a fake ally who will drop the cause at a moment's notice because they feel a bit slighted ain't needed? I'm not helping? Aight. I'm undoing the work of people who are helping? You better move on somewhere with that shit

C'mon man. This isn't and never has been "who cares about white people?" or that anyone actually believes that no white person has it bad. I know you know better but what you are expressing is what people feel when they misunderstand "White Privilege". The human experience is complicated and different individuals have things better than others for a variety of different reasons. That doesn't change the fact that if you keep other variables constant, its better to be White than Non-White. That doesn't mean all White people are living the high life but rather one option is usually better than the other. I mean what if we instead of White/Non-White we talked about Men/Women? There are issues that Men suffer exclusive to them but on average, if all other variables were kept the same, would you argue with a straight face that its better to be a Woman in this environment?

"White people have certain advantages" or "White people have often voted in ways that have hurt minorities (and themselves) or been unsympathetic to minorities" (which are both objectively true) has never meant and never will mean "fuck all White people".



I guess it comes down to if you think that woman was calling out those three specific women or the voting patterns of White Women overall last November. I just think its the later. I guess agree to disagree?
It certainly means that if you really really try hard enough
 

Imm0rt4l

Member
I'm a white woman who voted for Clinton, surrounded by white women who voted for Trump. The way conversations were going before election day, I was convinced these women would vote against their party to prevent a misogynist from getting in. You could say I was shocked and disappointed.

I have a responsibility to talk to these women, not only in my own self-interest, but for the minorities who will suffer from their dumb decision.

In other words, I see that sign in the OP as being directed at those like me, and I'm okay with that.

That being said, comments like the Tweet appear to be attacking the "47%" directly, as if they themselves are responsible for everyone in their demographic, which isn't very helpful.
You get it.

The tweet was a poetic way of saying do some reflection. Your post illustrates that you have.
 
Not everyone is needed. All help isn't good help. Also, the reason Hispanic/Latinos and Black people voted for Trump is likely the same, "He ain't talking about us when he says blakcs have it bad and Mexicans are rapists and drug dealers, so it's fine." There is a problem there, but not as large as trying to figure out why white women voted for him. If a majority of Hispanics/Latinos voted for him, we'd all be trying to figure out why
I disagree,(to an extent, don't want anarchists who hijack protests for example) I want to fucking win, the right have been winning and winning and winning across the board far too much. I don't got the luxury to be picking and choosing who's doing things exactly how I want them to and thus whether they're worthy enough to be by my side. I can get into the nitty gritty after we've done enough make sure something like Trump doesn't happen again.
 

LionPride

Banned
I'm a white woman who voted for Clinton, surrounded by white women who voted for Trump. The way conversations were going before election day, I was convinced these women would vote against their party to prevent a misogynist from getting in. You could say I was shocked and disappointed.

I have a responsibility to talk to these women, not only in my own self-interest, but for the minorities who will suffer from their dumb decision.

In other words, I see that sign in the OP as being directed at those like me, and I'm okay with that.

That being said, comments like the Tweet appear to be attacking the "47%" directly, as if they themselves are responsible for everyone in their demographic, which isn't very helpful.
You know what, I like you.
 

Zoc

Member
I'm not helping? I'm not helping because I think that a fake ally who will drop the cause at a moment's notice because they feel a bit slighted ain't needed? I'm not helping? Aight. I'm undoing the work of people who are helping? You better move on somewhere with that shit

Yup, that's exactly what you're doing. No progress is going to happen as long as Trump is in power. Getting him out is job #1, and everyone's vote is equal. You can't give up on people and call them "fake allies" at the first little disagreement.
 
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