While digging up NX info I came across one thing about PS4K. Apparently if they do upgrade the CPU, it'll use Puma+? Perhaps even use a 14n. version of it. It was just a passing statement, I don't know anything about PS4K and I don't follow this thread so maybe that's already been established.
PS4K information (~2x GPU power w/ clock+, new CPU, price, tent. Q1 2017)
- Thread starter OsirisBlack
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Negotiator
Banned
How much faster is Puma+ compared to the Jaguar IPC-wise?
It seems like a minor improvement if you ask me... not worth the $399 investment.
I'd rather pay $499 and get Zen/Polaris/GDDR5X (or even HBM2).
It seems like a minor improvement if you ask me... not worth the $399 investment.
I'd rather pay $499 and get Zen/Polaris/GDDR5X (or even HBM2).
Does not exist.
14nm AMD is Zen.
Minor, will solve some bottlenecks but the cat family is in general just a meh uarch. It also depends on where they clock it and so on. You're not getting Zen in 2016, and probably not until late 2017.
No one makes or forwards the tech of Cafe, or any of the PPC archs used in the NGC to WiiU. That line of tech is dead. So who is to say? Well, basically the entire tech industry said it. So unless you're expecting Nintendo to found a new development arm that furthers PPC technology, that line is done. The re-branding should also make it fairly self-evident.
Negotiator
Banned
I can wait until 2017. No need to rush it.
I can wait until 2017. No need to rush it.
The question then is how well did they make their APIs, are they robust to low-level changes, and will an uarch change at mid-gen cause complications?
Given that this seems more like a reactionary move, and that the Jags came way under expectations for performance... I'm going to err on the side of "no".
Also, as I think this is heavily driven by their VR competition and comparative tech-capabilities, I don't think this is going to occur in 2017 (at least not past a few months in) or late 2017. I think they'd want this boost in performance out fast and soon, and I think Puma+ would give them enough gains on the CPU (and the fact that its not even seemingly written in stone or set, makes me doubt any huge leaps and bounds. Zen would require commitment from a while ago to really get on the yields and build up). About the only piece of hardware that may end up sporting a Zen is the peculiarly absent/quiet/missing in actions NX handheld. Nintendo's either going to write a robust OS and APIs for x86/ARM, or they're going to delay the handheld until Zen matures enough to give them a mobile-friendly SOC.
Marty Chinn
Member
Eh? I don't remember a lot of people complaining about TLOU being remastered. To address the point in general, the key differentiating factor is timing. People seem to want to compare A to B without factoring the context of the timing of A and the timing of B.
dead souls
Member
Yep. Remastering last gen games is pretty lame, same gen games (PS4-PS4K) would be absurd, but older games than that I see no problem with. It's not like that many people want to whip out an N64 to play something like Majora's Mask.
As for people being okay with Wii U remasters it's most likely because the system was a huge flop so they don't own one and haven't had a chance to play the games in question.
No one would have to remaster anything for PS4k. They could just patch the previously released game on PS4.
Melchiah
Member
When it comes to possible Wii U remasters on NX, the time between the original and remasters is pretty much the same as with PS3 remasters on PS4.
Not all PS4 owners owned PS3 last gen either, so remasters of PS3 exclusives were something they hadn't played before as well.
http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/...ers-that-didn_2700_t-own-a-playstation-3.aspx
So, it's definitely a case of potato-potato.
When / IF PS4K comes out....
PS4K [OT] A Console Remastered
PS4 Console of the Gen Edition
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
When / IF PS4K comes out....
PS4K [OT] A Console Remastered
Definitive Edition?
Oh sorry ... as Caayn pointed out, I was referring to the 2016 model year sets. Several of those haven't hit stores yet (though I know at least some of the LG OLED models are available).
Not sure if anyone is going after retroactive certification or not.
I agree it's confusing, and the hope was the something like a UHD Alliance would avoid some of those headaches.
From a business standpoint I can kind of understand though. I don't know the particulars, but it's very possible there is a fee involved. If that's the case it's not surprising some companies would rather avoid it.
Similarly if the company isn't a member of the Alliance at all, or isn't one of the companies involved with setting requirements, I could see why they may not necessarily want to go that route?
Unfortunately it will likely be a long time (if ever) that HDR becomes mainstream in the home for projection. At least at anywhere the nits we're talking about. Lamps simply can't do it and who knows when laser will be cost-effective.
At least with a 4K projector the resolution increase itself actually becomes useful, as can the increased color gamut. So there are some real world benefits even with gimped HDR.
No problem!Highly agree with you. Thanks for adding more details to my post
THE:MILKMAN
Member
So what is the consensus so far?
If the specs in the OP are accurate it would need to be Zen/Polaris and next year?
Or a bump in cores/clock speed of the Jaguar and CUs doubled of the current APU?
Personally, I can't see the latter. It would be a lot of cost/effort from Sony on what are weak/old parts and can't see AMD re-engineering the APU for 14nm/UHD etc (and 28nm would also push it to near 200W?)
If the specs in the OP are accurate it would need to be Zen/Polaris and next year?
Or a bump in cores/clock speed of the Jaguar and CUs doubled of the current APU?
Personally, I can't see the latter. It would be a lot of cost/effort from Sony on what are weak/old parts and can't see AMD re-engineering the APU for 14nm/UHD etc (and 28nm would also push it to near 200W?)
Tell us which users have double standards. If it's not the same people, then there is no issue at all.
Marty Chinn
Member
Ah no worries. Thanks for the clarification. Like I said before, I haven't paid too close attention; I just new they would start trickling in this year at some point. I assumed it was a bit later, but good to see they're already starting to show up. I've been telling everyone to wait before jumping in because of this.
Makes sense. Hopefully this will just a speed bump and it'll come to a point, hopefully quickly, where everyone is just conforming to meet it and it really doesn't matter if they are certified or not. You would just assume at that point all the major players will have the right compatibility. It's in everyone's best interest to be on the same page I would think.
That's disappointing to find out. I'm still likely 4 or 5 years out; I just assumed by the time I was really ready to drop serious money into it there would be one. I only about a month ago started dipping my feet into projectors so I'm still in the learning phase. There's so many things to factor in that you don't have to worry about with TVs so I'm definitely not well versed on what's going on in that market, how it's advanced and what's on the horizon.
I can definitely already see how 4K will be a nice increase in quality with the experiments I've done seeing how SD, 720p, and 1080 looks on a larger scale. It's really nice seeing how 1080p at a larger size really brings out some of the detail. I'm definitely getting addicted to wanting to watch stuff projected though so it's going to be a long several years before the real setup gets put in. This is just sort of my entry level, experimental projector so I can get familiar with the ins and outs and it's been a good learning experience but it'll be mostly used for backyard watching and stored away a lot.
Why would they do either of these when they can just continue in the cat family with the Puma+? You're going between two extremes when there's a more than happy medium.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Because it would be neither here nor there. Half arsed if you like.
I'd be real disappointed if you're right. It should be a real slim (same APU, smaller box etc) or a substantial upgrade. Puma+ is a tweak+ IMO.
Uh... ya, that's exactly what this is to begin with, its not a new gen. You start introducing compatibility issues when you start changing so much between systems.
Puma+ is straight uarch propagation and maturation, and sticking to old GCN is the same for the GPU side of development/compatibility, and all of this avoids the issues of down-porting. They're not just going to completely change uarchs from cats to Zen, that's ludicrous.
They want people to upgrade and increase their profits per user, they're not going to launch a loss-leader luxury item. They didn't do it for PSVR, they're not going to do it for PS4K.
Schnozberry
Member
Zen would be a completely different architecture to optimize for. It has a wider integer pipeline, SMT, more pipeline stages, 512-bit AVX, a different memory controller, etc.
If they go Zen it's a very different PS4. All X86 chips are not created equal.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Maybe you are right but Puma+ and whatever you think the GPU side gets doesn't line up with the OP's 2X GPU, new CPU adding $100 to the price etc.
I just hope more details come out soon.
I just hope more details come out soon.
Why does it not add up? Puma+ is rather new and a considerable step up from the Jags, one would expect it to be more expensive than the current Jaguar production price. And there are plenty of ~3.6 GPUs available.
Also I don't believe what is effectively PR from within business dealings/planning. This is the same company that was talking about "supercharged x86" and all the other silly buzzwords. I wouldn't be surprised if the "2X" is some theoretical limit calculation bull.
Contrary to the popular belief, PS4 low level API is not "all the way to the metal". It still has a [low] level of abstraction in it, same as DX12. DX12 app can work just fine on Phenom II and latest i7.
How much stronger would the Puma+ be than current weak-ass Jaguar CPU?
I know CPU's are complicated beasts and it can he hard to put a percentage number on the upgrade, but would it be a significant upgrade or just a minor one?
We saw with Assasin's Creed Unity just how bottlenecked the PS4 processor can be. Any upgrade could help to reach a more consistent 30 or 60 fps target.
I know CPU's are complicated beasts and it can he hard to put a percentage number on the upgrade, but would it be a significant upgrade or just a minor one?
We saw with Assasin's Creed Unity just how bottlenecked the PS4 processor can be. Any upgrade could help to reach a more consistent 30 or 60 fps target.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Because it isn't a new CPU. It is a facelift or tweak of Jaguar and already at least a year old. I certainly wouldn't pay $499/£430? for a PS4K featuring it. Most importantly it wouldn't be an upgrade in my mind. Would AMD even redesign it just for Sony at 14nm or do you think PS4K would stick to 28nm?
Puma+ is still a ultra mobile class CPU and not fit for a high end console in 2016/7.
geordiemp
Member
Yeah I agree, there is no point doing a mega upgrade and keeping Jaguar (even at 14 nm), that is just asking for bottlenecks.
My guess is ps4.5 will be out when zen is ready to be put in the APU...
JonathanPower
Member
The Jaguar architecture itself is pretty great; its main downside is the relatively low clock speed. I don't know if it can reach that clock speed, but an 8 core 3.2GHz Puma would be a pretty nice upgrade. It would provide twice the power of the PS4 CPU.
Schnozberry
Member
I'm aware it has an abstraction layer, but that doesn't mean optimization is the same across the board. Going with Zen would mean adding time and cost to development projects in order to make sure that users of both systems have the best possible experience.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
And we are right back in the beginning again, lol.
Negotiator
Banned
AC Unity needs a low level graphics API (DX12, Mantle, GNM) to increase the draw calls/NPCs and utilize all CPU cores equally.
Pipeline-wise it cannot reach such high frequencies, IIRC.
Even if we take into account flops, Jaguar is not that bad. 8 cores @ 1.6 GHz yield ~100 Gflops vs Cell 8 SPUs @ 3.2 GHz yield ~200 Gflops.
If we could overclock Jaguar @ 3.2 GHz, it would be as fast as Cell is flops-wise. But as I've said before, thanks to GPGPU this is a moot point. GPUs are way more powerful/efficient when it comes to matrix calculations.
~
Btw, I remember some PC/DX12 game benchmarks where different GCN revisions (i.e. 1.1 vs 1.2) had different performance results.
So, yeah, it's true that changing uArchs can yield unpredictable results...
Does anyone know is what uArch is Zen based on? For example, the Jaguar is Bobcat-based.
Zen is the new uarch successor the Excavator, but it drops the CMT for SMT based operations. Its effectively a new branch uarch of its own "generation".
I'm pretty sure every console manufacturer hypes up their new products with meaningless buzzwords. It's called, y'know, marketing. Same cycle's gonna start in two months when Nintendo announces that NX thing. I expect plenty of bullshit there too.
True... and irrelevant to the point I was making.
Negotiator
Banned
I see. I was wondering if perhaps it's based on some "exotic" architecture.
Jim Keller designed DEC Alpha processors and the Athlon K7, which was based on DEC Alpha CPUs.
The same guy is behind Zen's uArch, so I'm pretty pumped for it.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
At the end of the day whatever PS4K is, it would have been in the works before or shortly after PS4 launch. i.e. planned from the off.
You might say that the circle is now complete, old man.
I don't know if this is true.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I almost said that, but it was just adding links to the chain of all the other circle's that were complete in this thread, lol.
Trust, this was planned all along for this gen. By all 3. It was just the right time when they can finally put it in place due to the affordability of the tech and the open BSD platform for the software.
The signs in quotes were writing on the wall late last gen, and early this gen. The whole, 'ways to rethink a total relaunch every generation', 'it is too expensive/risky', 'need a complete ecosystem like mobile that grows with our costumers so they too do not feel like they have to start over when already invested', etc..
Negotiator
Banned
I thought it was just Sony that used FreeBSD for their console OS?
Microsoft uses Windows and Nintendo uses what exactly...?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I was speaking specifically Sony for the BSD... but yes, MSFT has it's (trying to build up) 'Win10 Platform UWP cross/same ecosystem', and Nintendo's comments about being on one ecosystem, and now releasing stuff on mobile, and I am sure wanting all of that to also work together with their new system, so they are probably using some form of in house developed software tech out there based on something that allows for that as well.
If people do not see the patterns here, look back at the comments, the tech choices (well the latest NX rumor, it is x86/orARM as well, SHOCKER (not)), all wanting to keep people invested and locked into their platform, so they are less likely to shift to others (MAU talk anyone?) which resets often do... then you are thinking VERY short sited, and is exactly why these companies have R&D with much more forward thinking, than your average armchair gamer.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Well a new APU has to be designed/tested/verified and it can take years. Zen for example was started in early 2012 and still ain't out.
If PS4K APU is just a turbo'd version of Jaguar/HD7850 maybe that cuts the time down but its only been 2.5 years since PS4.
Nintendo uses their own proprietary OS.
Yea, a CPU upgrade don't add up to an extra $100, we don't have the whole puzzle yet. Maybe they also double the Bus from 256 to 512 delivering 352GB of bandwidth.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Without getting too much into the nitty gritty. Having it play UHD out of the box can easily drive it up $100. Those UHD Blu-ray players are, and will not be cheap initially.
Negotiator
Banned
Yeah, I remember Nintendo saying that they want to unify development for home & portable consoles.
NX home & NX portable is akin to PS4.5 and PS4... one game, 2 hardware targets.
Yeah, I was just wondering if it's BSD-based. Linux is unlikely due to GPL.
Yea, but just according to the OP, the reason for a $499 price point vs $399 was a supposedly upgraded CPU. That doesn't add up, something is missing, besides what good is an upgraded cpu and a 3.7Tflop GPU without more bandwidth.
Negotiator
Banned
512-bit bus would make PCB design way more complicated...
Just imagine GDDR5X + 512-bit... insane memory bandwidth. It kinda makes HBM(2) redundant, unless you care about power efficiency & PCB size.