Scythian Empire
Member
divisionbyzorro said:
Has this been confirmed?
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- Thread starter GhaleonEB
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Has this been confirmed?
yea, about 80% of my games have team killers, quitters, people taking your shields so an enemy can kill you so they can have your weapon/no reason at all, and dumb fucks who go teabag each other giggling because they are making their team lose. I even see this shit in arena.
sigh.
sigh.
Neuromancer
Member
I think it was a jokeScythian Empire said:
FunkyMunkey
Banned
Ganhyun said:
The great thing about the ranks in Halo 3 is that they also acted as a beautiful filtration system that become more accurate/better over time.
Here, it's cluster-screwed.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Neuromancer said:
This, although I think it would be hilarious if Bungie actually did something like this on the week Black Ops hits. :lol
FunkyMunkey said:
I'd also say its more in line with Call of Duty with this setup, since even though TruSkill is still applied, anyone of any rank can play with anyone at any time for the most part.
Now, if only these griefing assholes would go back to COD while I'm playing Halo :lol
sigh, yet another griefing game.
http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/gamestats.aspx?gameid=273293491&player=ShogunOfPain
The other team got to rape us, and me especially, since I was the only person trying to fight them half the time.
http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/gamestats.aspx?gameid=273293491&player=ShogunOfPain
The other team got to rape us, and me especially, since I was the only person trying to fight them half the time.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
FunkyMunkey said:
True. I always thought it was handy being able to look at a person's rank and have a rough idea about their skill level (even though it wasn't 100 perfect or accurate). The downside to this, boosting, second accounting, et al, were rather significant.
I always thought, since the Beta, that a hybrid system would be a better alternative.
Something like this.
Use the Halo 3 system as a base but double the available ranks to get, so say 100 levels. However change the swing involved so that say an average level 50 would be around level 75. This would give lesser skilled folks more room and more ranks to go through (and achieve a sense of progress for a considerable number of months) and also provide higher skilled players with a higher goal to properly distinguish them with the highest rank being almost very difficult to achieve.
The with each rank have a second component similar to the Reach ranks, based solely on the amount of credits/games played/activities completed. Split the 100 ranks into four separate groups and have around around 25-50 different second ranks based on lifetime credits.
Lastly, assign a specific colour to each rank based on the Arena system, ie your overall skill and performance compared to every other player using percentage divisions (ie top 20% being onyx, etc).
The way I see it, when you reach your "peak" level, you still have progression to make based on your secondary rank. Additionally, second accounters and boosters would be out of luck as simply achieving a higher primary rank would mean little without a the proper secondary rank and Arena colouring/rank. Much more diversity of ranks, more progression for lesser skilled folks, more room at the top for the properly skilled.
Just a thought. Reach's ranking has some good qualities, but I prefer Halo 3's system, flaws and all. Would like to see what they do in future.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
I wish there was just a controller configuration that switched jump and AA. Bumper jumper sucks.
what happened other than your team getting destroyed?Ganhyun said:sigh, yet another griefing game.
http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/gamestats.aspx?gameid=273293491&player=ShogunOfPain
The other team got to rape us, and me especially, since I was the only person trying to fight them half the time.
cuevas said:
The other team members would shoot each other to lower shields, let an enemy do alot of damage and kill us to get weapons. the usual. Of course, it didnt help matters much that the other team worked well together, noticed this, and pretty much let us do this and mop up :lol
electricpirate
Member
FunkyMunkey said:
In this respect the current system of hidden ranks works in exactly the same manner. I can only think of one difference; the skill levels can change more quickly, so those griefers drop/ pick up to their previous level when not griefing more quickly.
actually, i wonder if bungie could start using sudden, wide trueskill stats to start detecting griefers...
Edit: case in point.
Ramirez said:
sounds like Ram has managed to get a skill level up above the griefers to me.
cuevas. PhD.
Member
Ramirez said:
pretty much my experience.
Demoncarnotaur
Member
Raiden said:
The betrayal system seems broken in Reach. While that time it was just bad luck, I have a ton of betrayals that really dont make sense. I wish it were toned down a tad.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Not too sure if I want "adult" content my mah Halo. So who's writing the steamy Cortana/Chief action at 343? :lol
Personally, I strongly prefer Reach's ranking system to Halo 3's. The big mistake Halo 3 made was in tying a player's feeling of progression to their rank, which was in turn tied to the True Skill rating. When players see a number, the motivation is to increase that number. But the way True Skill works, there was a tiny, ~1% fraction of players who would ever be able to reach the upper ranks. It was like providing people a bar to fill and then not letting most people fill it.
Reach eliminates that. But it also provides the tools to asses both how a player plays Reach and how good they are. I think this is why the Service Record is integrated into the game itself more fully, to enable players to asses other players now that a numerical rank no longer indicates skill level. I see someone with a certain rank, I know they play a lot. A quick look at the Service Record tells me what they play. And a cursory check of their top-level stats (ie, K/D) tells me if they're any good or not.
I think tying rank more directly to skill would be detrimental to the system; again, giving players a bar most would never, ever fill. The de-coupling of the skill/rank systems is one of the things Reach got exactly correct.
Reach eliminates that. But it also provides the tools to asses both how a player plays Reach and how good they are. I think this is why the Service Record is integrated into the game itself more fully, to enable players to asses other players now that a numerical rank no longer indicates skill level. I see someone with a certain rank, I know they play a lot. A quick look at the Service Record tells me what they play. And a cursory check of their top-level stats (ie, K/D) tells me if they're any good or not.
I think tying rank more directly to skill would be detrimental to the system; again, giving players a bar most would never, ever fill. The de-coupling of the skill/rank systems is one of the things Reach got exactly correct.
Thagomizer
Member
I swear I'm geting worse as time goes on. I used to be able to drop anyone with the pistol, and now I feel like I'm shooting a water gun. It's sad
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Just walked by Frank's desk and picked up this gem.
Dani said:
OuterWorldVoice said:
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
:lol :lol
electricpirate
Member
GhaleonEB said:
Thumbs up!
Bungie, just please decrease the arena commitment and I'll be a happy man
Shake Appeal
Member
Yeah, only one time, once, in a ton of games of Reach has someone dropped my shields because I took the sniper. And I think he may have regretted it, because I hounded him all over the map after that until he quit, and then I sent him a mocking message, and then when he had the audacity to reply to that message with a bad word, I rained the XBL equivalent of molten rock and brimstone on his squeaking pubescent form until he was reduced to but a thin syrup howling in fire.Ramirez said:
Exactly, this x1000. Before reach or the beta came out I was talking to Eric WK about how I hated the trueskill levels and that it was a detriment to previous halo games. That they needed to remove the number and the thought that you can even progress in it. I think what they have done is a better solution, though it probably isn't the only or best solution.GhaleonEB said:
Those of you that liked the trueskill levels probably were on the high end, where you felt 'elite' and above everyone else. Sure, if you were put their naturally without boosting, I would say you should feel good, but the majority of people not at the top wanted to work their way to the top and most couldn't. I got up to 42 in TS, I was with a great team and at that time when we tried to get up higher it was futile. We would win 5 games in a row, nothing, but lose 1 and go down. Many examples like that happened, and it was soul crushing. It soured me to TS, knowing that if I lost a game, even if I performed at my best and was on top of everyone, I would still have a chance to go down in trueskill level.
The reason it was so hard to go up? Because that number was tied to my trueskill, which is a rating of yourself against the general populace that you've played. Once you get to a certain number, and you can't go higher, you are at your true skill. That is fine in concept, but as Ghaleon said above, because it is a number you feel like you want to increase it. But the more you played, the more accurate and locked in it got. So new kids that just got the game could play, and if they were any good, with a little help they could push their way up to 50 easily. I lost respect in that system, as much as it was a representation of your skill, it was easily gamed and without looking at your real stats could you tell if someone was actually good or just a loser.
I think one thing they could add that would give a sense of your trueskill rating but without making you feel like you have to continually increase it, give a percentage of how you stand in the global trueskill playerbase. So if you are at the top, you are in the top 10%, if you are new you wouldn't have a percentage yet, but when you did you would probably be in the top 80% or higher depending on your skill. In this sense it shows your skill relative to others, it gives you a sense of your own skill and others easily while not making you want to grind to a higher number. Of course people will want to improve it, but it isn't the same kind of progression that the levels from previous halo games instilled. I doubt they would put that in there, but it is food for thought for new games.
tl;dr: Trueskill levels are bad, instead a percentage of where you stand vs the general populace would make more sense and fix the issue of players wanting to continually move up in level like an rpg.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
GhaleonEB said:
In Halo 3, an individual could achieve the max rank (for both TrueSkill and XP) a month after launch if they put the time and effort into it.
In Reach, time and effort gets you capped.
Thats the problem with showing trueskill, it was possible for a new player who was decent and played a ton to get up to 50, but someone like myself who may not be good enough to be 50 had no chance because I played Halo 3 when I sucked at it too, and ruined any chance I had if any when I got better.Domino Theory said:
Sure the cap isn't great, but if you stop playing because of it, you are just showing how successful the rest of Reach's player investment is. It does shine poorly on the rest of the game though.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
chapel said:Thats the problem with showing trueskill, it was possible for a new player who was decent and played a ton to get up to 50, but someone like myself who may not be good enough to be 50 had no chance because I played Halo 3 when I sucked at it too, and ruined any chance I had if any when I got better.
Sure the cap isn't great, but if you stop playing because of it, you are just showing how successful the rest of Reach's player investment is. It does shine poorly on the rest of the game though.
Yeah I hear you. I'm not really defending TrueSkill, I'm just showing the possibilities that Halo 3 gave to the player and the differences in player investment for each title.
Sure, being stuck at a specific level and having to win 60 games in a row in TS in order to move up one level sucked, but in the end, whether you kept at it or made a new account, the ability for you to climb over that hump and reach level 50 was available to you from the minute the game launched and still is to this day.
Cuban Legend
Member
the fuck is the plasma repeater doing on the first strike redesign
Shake Appeal
Member
There are some misconceptions here. Crucially, the rank numbers in Halo 3 weren't 'TrueSkill', just a way of representing a deliberately crippled TrueSkill. The Arena badges do the same thing, but allow TrueSkill free rein to go up and down. That is, the Arena (and every other playlist in Reach, invisibly) is using TrueSkill properly, whereas Halo 3 made it sluggish and increasingly cemented as you played. Not going up a level after winning five games straight wasn't TrueSkill's fault, it was Bungie's, because they intentionally gummed the system to give an artificial sense of progression. If TrueSkill had been working properly, you could bounce up and down frequently, but would ultimately average out around a number like 40, or Silver in the Arena. But Bungie anticipated just how much people would hate moving up and down (Bars should never go down!!! Bars must be filled, never emptied!!!), so they rigged it so you would only rarely move from where the game placed you, once it had decreed what 'level' you were (which is not how TrueSkill works).chapel said:
But the system is actually working by design, as it should, in Reach: if you play badly or well for a while, you will go down and up properly, and with much greater ease than you could in Halo 3, where they were trying to make it feel like you were 'progressing'. It's elastic now in a way it wasn't before. So I can pogo between Bronze and Silver all season, whereas in Halo 3 I wasn't regularly bouncing between 35-45, I was stuck at the upper limit I had 'progressed' to.
And if you study up on TrueSkill it actually is a sort of relative percentile of where you stand in the population, and that's what the Arena badges mean. Bungie just haven't revealed whether Gold means top 5% or top 25% or whatever else.
The real problem Bungie (and other developers) are wrestling with is people hate, hate, hate actually knowing how good/bad they are at a game unless they are in the top 1%, and even more than that they hate not being able to 'improve' by grinding; if they are told they are rank 42, and can't move from there, they will stop playing. Reach tries to deal with this by giving people a constant sense of progression independent of their actual skill level (i.e. the cR grind), and by making the harsh judgements of TrueSkill less apparent (Arena badges are abstract, and reset each month to allow people a new shot at the system without having to create a second account).
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Cuban Legend said:
Same thing with the updated armour. Retroactively adding new weapons into a story's text is difficult but for a newly designed cover it is relatively painless. I prefer this than the alternative, pretending the newer material doesn't exist when given the chance to revisit older material.
Plus, did the artist that did the background art for the new cover also work on the new Forerunner novel cover? I'm getting a strong visual vibe from the background of First Strike's new cover comparing it with Cryptum.
Glowingmonx
Member
Shake Appeal said:
That's what I do as well. Just keep shooting his shield off for the rest of the match while he's trying to snipe, that'll piss him off. I've only been betrayed for picking up a power weapon around 3-4 times I think so it's not that bad.
Shake Appeal
Member
Also, I feel like I should defend TrueSkill, because it is serious fucking math and damn good at what it does.
The problem for the developers using it is that players hate having their abilities accurately assessed. It gives them nothing to work towards, and often the truth is cold and hard. Usually we have our various cognitive biases working to protect us from the reality of our skill level. If TrueSkill were laid bare, plenty of people (the kind who don't play games for, uh, fun) would straight up quit.
The problem for the developers using it is that players hate having their abilities accurately assessed. It gives them nothing to work towards, and often the truth is cold and hard. Usually we have our various cognitive biases working to protect us from the reality of our skill level. If TrueSkill were laid bare, plenty of people (the kind who don't play games for, uh, fun) would straight up quit.
Cuban Legend
Member
Dani said:
The Librarian
Banned
Why you scooping me, Frankie?lybertyboy said:Just walked by Frank's desk and picked up this gem.
This is a reply to your earlier post in response to me as well.Shake Appeal said:
I know that the number system bungie used wasn't actual trueskill. I have read the trueskill papers that Microsoft released years ago. I understand the mathematical breakdown and how elastic it is supposed to be.
Though it shouldn't be as elastic that it is. Too many times do I get in a game and dong on people hard, but then 5+ games later I am being donged on. I know that sometimes it is inevitable to have players way lower or way higher than your skill, but in Reach it seems to happen a lot more than it ever did in previous halo games. I think they should have smoothed it over a bit more, so you stick around in the middle more, sure if you are exceptionally good, it will take a little more playing to show how good you are and stick up there, but a few bad games wont keep you donging on people. In fact because people will realize this, they can and will play badly (like in Halo 3) to 'derank' themselves so they can continue to dong on people.
The reason I think a percentage would work is because it really isn't a negative thing (well unless you aren't in the top 90% of people). When you tell someone you are in the top 80%, you know you are better than at least 20% of the population. The real benefit comes when you are 50% or above, knowing that you are better than over half of the playerbase is a good feeling imo.
Oh and I know arena has all that baked in, but the problem is people don't want to play 3 games a day for 10 days in arena. Hardly anyone plays it anymore. It could be due to them fucking it up with only one map choice at any time, but it really doesn't feel as competitive as it should. The quitting is terrible, and that stems from their daily rating... that is what is ruining arena, oh that and armor lock.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Gah. Dropped twice from Reach in the middle of games tonight.
Just suddenly ends, telling me I won the game (and counted for the challenge). Still signed perfectly into Xbox Live.
*sigh*
Just suddenly ends, telling me I won the game (and counted for the challenge). Still signed perfectly into Xbox Live.
*sigh*
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