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[JimmyV]

So basically if NK does anything they can kiss their government goodbye. From what I've read even Russia feels threatened so they wouldn't get in the way of a US retaliation strike on NK, assuming of course that NK would ever strike SK or Japan.

So where does China fit in all this?

I read China is with Russia, and tying to stop NK from doing anything stupid. This really wouldnt break out WWIII unless Iran decides its a great time to stike Israel, but in their situation it'll break out into a civil war as well. I dont think NK has any allies really, so its not like we need more than 1 or 2 countries to fight them. That being said, I wouldnt be suprised if other countries gave a hand, if only to get a piece of the rebuilding.

nothing like a world war to stimulate the economy.

worked last time =/



EDIT: nvm

 

[toxicgonzo]

From what I understand, even the Chinese are getting fed up with North Korea's antics.

It's not hard to understand why China used to support them. The Chinese don't really want U.S. forces so close to them. It makes them feel uneasy and if World War I and II are any indicator, tension + a mass of troops = trouble

 

[nyong]

What possible benefit would China have in supporting NK? Financial? Political

The Chinese government has a completely different social/political ideology. For all we know, the Chinese government views the spread of democracy similar to how we viewed the spread of communism back in Vietnam. It's not inconceivable that they want to see us fail militarily, and our political influence wane. China is not our ally. We have similar trade interests....well, sort of....

The developing NK situation is one of the few where I put on my tinfoil hat and take a somewhat different stance than the mainstream media. I think there is an extremely good possibility that NK wants SK back, and that NK would be subtly backed by the Chinese in the event of war. A U.S. loss in that region would greatly undermine our sphere of influence. Something that China undoubtedly wants. More importantly, I think this is all going to play out in the near future.

 

[Haly]

The Chinese government has a completely different social/political ideology. For all we know, the Chinese government views the spread of democracy similar to how we viewed the spread of communism back in Vietnam. It's not inconceivable that they want to see us fail militarily, and our political influence wane. China is not our ally. We have similar trade interests....well, sort of....

I shouldn't do this but I managed to get a copy of the PRC's agenda while I'm here on vacation. Here's an abridged version:

1) Stay in power
2) Expand economy

Yeah, the way they think is downright insane.

The developing NK situation is one of the few where I put on my tinfoil hat and take a somewhat different stance than the mainstream media. I think there is an extremely good possibility that NK wants SK back, and that NK would be subtly backed by the Chinese in the event of war. A U.S. loss in that region would greatly undermine our sphere of influence. Something that China undoubtedly wants. More importantly, I think this is all going to play out in the near future.

Would you risk modernization and expansion in order to defend a country that's been acting like an attention whoring brat for the last few years?

(Fuck, I see some unmarked cars outside. BRB, evading Thought Police)

 

[teh_pwn]

The Chinese government has a completely different social/political ideology. For all we know, the Chinese government views the spread of democracy similar to how we viewed the spread of communism back in Vietnam. It's not inconceivable that they want to see us fail militarily, and our political influence wane. China is not our ally. We have similar trade interests....well, sort of....

The developing NK situation is one of the few where I put on my tinfoil hat and take a somewhat different stance than the mainstream media. I think there is an extremely good possibility that NK wants SK back, and that NK would be subtly backed by the Chinese in the event of war. A U.S. loss in that region would greatly undermine our sphere of influence. Something that China undoubtedly wants. More importantly, I think this is all going to play out in the near future.

We owe China more than 4 trillion USD. Why declare war and erase that debt?

The Chinese government isn't the die hard communist authoritarian state that people think it is. It certainly lacks in civil rights, but they are getting increasingly capitalist, and they have to keep the millions of people migrating from rural to modern China employed to maintain political stability. Several million Chinese jobs depend on trade with the United States.

The Chinese government literally moved entire temples to higher ground as the Three Gorges Dam waters rise to where the temples were.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Would you risk modernization and expansion in order to defend a country that's been acting like an attention whoring brat for the last few years?

This is pretty much the way I see things, too. They have nothing to gain by siding with NK. Politically, it made sense....40-50 years ago. These days...? Supporting NK would be a gamble against their future economic expansion.

 

[nyong]

I shouldn't do this but I managed to get a copy of the PRC's agenda while I'm here on vacation. Here's an abridged version:

1) Stay in power
2) Expand economy

Yeah, the way they think is downright insane.

Interesting, that's the same checklist we use! Of course it's abridged for a reason...

I suppose it's possible that China is on board with the United States retaining its superpower status, and simply wants to maintain the status quo. No aspirations of superpower status in China. The spread of democracy is in no way a threat to their ideology. No sir....

Would you risk modernization and expansion in order to defend a country that's been acting like an attention whoring brat for the last few years?

Exactly how would China "risk" anything by discreetly fighting a proxy war against the United States? I mean, fuck...both China and Russia are obviously not 100% on board with us taking meaningful action against NK. Last I checked, both of them refused to approve our inspection of NK ships. Something Obama thought a necessary step in enforcing NK compliance.

We owe China more than 4 trillion USD. Why declare war and erase that debt?

They won't declare war on us. And their money is quite safe in the event of a U.S. military loss. The successful invasion of SK would signify the absolute end of US world military dominance. Something that has been slowly developing since Vietnam.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Aren't you forgetting about oh, the fucking South Korean military? 650k active military personnel and modern arms could easily hold the North Koreans by themselves.

No I wasn't forgetting them, I'm just saying how many US soldiers are in harms way if a war starts. I wasn't trying to imply that it would just be NK vs US lol.

 

[Haly]

Interesting, that's the same checklist we use! Of course it's abridged for a reason...

I suppose it's possible that China is on board with the United States retaining its superpower status, and simply wants to maintain the status quo. No aspirations of superpower status in China. The spread of democracy is in no way a threat to their ideology. No sir....

Which ideology is that. Communism? Does China LOOK like a communist state?

Exactly how would China "risk" anything by discreetly fighting a proxy war against the United States? I mean, fuck...both China and Russia are obviously not 100% on board with us taking meaningful action against NK. Last I checked, both of them refused to approve our inspection of NK ships. Something Obama thought a necessary step in enforcing NK compliance....

Because if war breaks out in NK do you think China can really support them without upsetting their trade relations with the U.S.? Or that China even cares what happens to North Korea? I'm afraid I didn't hear anything about the inspection thing, let me google it.

Wait what's this I found?: http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20090613/760/twl-u-n-widens-sanctions-on-north-korea.html

(Sorry I can't link to CNN, I'm sure it's on there but as you may know cnn.com is banned here in China)

 

[mjc]

Looks like the USS John McCain is on the ready to intercept a no good NK ship at port in China.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/19/military-set-intercept-north-korean-ship-suspected-proliferatin-missiles-nukes/

 

[Funky Papa]

(Sorry I can't link to CNN, I'm sure it's on there but as you may know cnn.com is banned here)

What? How is that?

 

[Haly]

What? How is that?

Because I'm in China, should've made that clearer.

EDIT: There we go.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Looks like the USS John McCain is on the ready to intercept a no good NK ship at port in China.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/06/19/military-set-intercept-north-korean-ship-suspected-proliferatin-missiles-nukes/

Why the fuck would they announce this?

 

[nyong]

Which ideology is that. Communism? Does China LOOK like a communist state?

Less and less with each passing year. Because of international pressure led by the United States. And with often great resistance on the part of the Chinese government.

Because if war breaks out in NK do you think China can really support them without upsetting their trade relations with the U.S.? Or that China even cares what happens to North Korea? I'm afraid I didn't hear anything about the inspection thing, let me google it.

Wait what's this I found?: http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20090613/760/twl-u-n-widens-sanctions-on-north-korea.html

(Sorry I can't link to CNN, I'm sure it's on there but as you may know cnn.com is banned here in China)

Interesting, I did not realize they had approved some of the actions they had. The Guardian basically reinforces this, but adds this:

While China and Russia are concerned about North Korea's nuclear armoury, they do not want to do anything that would precipitate the fall of the Pyongyang government and lead to the reunification of the peninsula.

Why is this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/12/un-north-korea-nuclear-sanctions

 

[Rur0ni]

Which ideology is that. Communism? Does China LOOK like a communist state?


Because if war breaks out in NK do you think China can really support them without upsetting their trade relations with the U.S.? Or that China even cares what happens to North Korea? I'm afraid I didn't hear anything about the inspection thing, let me google it.

Wait what's this I found?: http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20090613/760/twl-u-n-widens-sanctions-on-north-korea.html

(Sorry I can't link to CNN, I'm sure it's on there but as you may know cnn.com is banned here in China)

I don't think it's too far from realism to believe we would maintain trade agreements while the Chinese supply the Norks with food and munitions. We love that cheap labor. And the infrastructure is there for it. It wouldn't be possible to up and take our business to South America without a serious investment. $ $ $.

 

[Haly]

Less and less with each passing year. Because of international pressure led by the United States. And with often great resistance on the part of the Chinese government.

So it's America that's pressuring China into becoming an oligarchy with an unhealthy interest in managing the exchange of information between its citizens, and adopting an ever more capitalistic approach to its economy? Good to know!

Why is this?

I have no clue. Maybe they feel NK is still a useful buffer zone?

 

[nyong]

So it's America that's pressuring China into becoming an oligarchy with an unhealthy interest in managing the exchange of information between its citizens? Good to know!

The control of information is the direct result of Western influence on the Chinese people. When I talk about "resistance" this is precisely what I am referring to.

Unfortunately for the China government, international pressure has led to major changes over the last 50 years.

I have no clue. Maybe they feel NK is still a useful buffer zone?

That would explain China, not Russia.

Even so, lets assume that China wants to maintain this buffer. Could this conceivably effect China's support of NK in the event of US invasion?

 

[Haly]

The exchange of information is the spread of Western political influence. When I talk about the spread of "democracy" this is exactly what I am referring to. The internet blocks, monitoring communications....this is all trying to undermine Western influence in China. They do not share our ideology.

Unfortunately for the China government, international pressure has led to major changes over the last 50 years.


That would explain China, not Russia.

Even so, lets assume that China wants to maintain this buffer. Could this conceivably effect China's support of NK in the event of US invasion?

I don't have sufficient background knowledge for this debate, I will introduce someone else to this thread later to handle your questions.

 

[JimmyV]

They won't declare war on us. And their money is quite safe in the event of a U.S. military loss. The successful invasion of SK would signify the absolute end of US world military dominance. Something that has been slowly developing since Vietnam.

Well they could easily invade, hold their line and progressing + winning is different.

Why the fuck would they announce this?

my thoughts exactly!:lol

 

[Duane Cunningham]

I bet Obama can knock that missile out of the sky with the same ninja precision he used to kill the fly.

 

[evilromero]

Man they are desperate for attention.

 

[jmdajr]

Well they could easily invade, hold their line and progressing + winning is different.


my thoughts exactly!:lol

to call their bluff?

edit: quoted wrong oh well

 

[JimmyV]

to call their bluff?

sound reasoning.

 

[andycapps]

nothing like a world war to stimulate the economy.

Who is going to side with North Korea?

 

[sonicmj1]

Interesting, that's the same checklist we use! Of course it's abridged for a reason...

I suppose it's possible that China is on board with the United States retaining its superpower status, and simply wants to maintain the status quo. No aspirations of superpower status in China. The spread of democracy is in no way a threat to their ideology. No sir....


Exactly how would China "risk" anything by discreetly fighting a proxy war against the United States? I mean, fuck...both China and Russia are obviously not 100% on board with us taking meaningful action against NK. Last I checked, both of them refused to approve our inspection of NK ships. Something Obama thought a necessary step in enforcing NK compliance.


They won't declare war on us. And their money is quite safe in the event of a U.S. military loss. The successful invasion of SK would signify the absolute end of US world military dominance. Something that has been slowly developing since Vietnam.

China benefits hugely from their friendly relationship with the West. Our insatiable appetite for goods fuels their manufacturing industries, which helps keep their economy expanding rapidly.

As much as the government wants to maintain its authoritarian control, the existence of the United States itself doesn't pose any peril to them. Any pressures they fear are internal. If your Soviet Union parallels are to hold, China would have to be involving itself in our current struggles, which it probably doesn't care very much about. As long as the West doesn't involve itself in China's direct business (read: Tibet), they have no need to interfere. Unlike the Soviet Union, China thrives when surrounded by democratic nations.

They may aspire for superpower status, but they don't need to risk direct confrontation to get it. We're destabilizing ourselves enough as it is. All they need to do is sit back, be congenial, and keep on growing towards capacity. With a population five or six times the size of the US and continued economic growth, it'd only be a matter of time before they displace everyone else by sheer size.

That's why they don't need North Korea disrupting things by acting stupid. There's no point in risking a confrontation before the time is ripe. If North Korea gets aggressive, the entire world will respond, and China won't be able to hold North Korea against that discreetly.

Their government doesn't plan to go anywhere. They can prepare for the long term. Better to temper North Korea and keep them under control as a distraction and buffer than to sow chaos, hurt regional trade, and possibly provoke wider conflict.

 

[Chris R]

Better Hawaii than Alaska And if they aim for Alaska, Greely is a better target.

 

[dark_chris]

Who is going to side with North Korea?

Venezula, Cuba, Vietnam

nah, i kid. NK is all alone there. lol.

 

[JimmyV]

Better Hawaii than Alaska And if they aim for Alaska, Greely is a better target.

elaborate please?

 

[SimpleDesign]

Better Hawaii than Alaska And if they aim for Alaska, Greely is a better target.

You must have never played Fallout huh? Alaska is going to be the first state to go down.

Tensions rise over the next century due to an increasing energy crisis caused by the depletion of petroleum reserves, leading to the "Resource Wars": a series of events over the next few decades which included a Europe-Middle East war, the disbanding of the United Nations, the US annexation of Canada and a Chinese invasion and military occupation of Alaska. These eventually culminated in the 2077 Great War, a cataclysmic nuclear exchange that created the post-apocalyptic setting of Fallout.

Right after we annex Canada, you best move or kiss that ass goodbye.

 

[Chris R]

elaborate please?

I live in Anchorage, next to an Army base. 'Plained enough?

 

[ChrisRT]

Think again.
Nuking huge civilian centers in a pre-emptive strike would be the worst thing for the USA to do. Unless actually threatened, with the other one firing first, nukes are no-no.

Tactical nuclear strikes on the missile facilities and the artillery near the DMZ.

Why do people assume strategic nukes are the only option?

 

[ChrisRT]

I agree but I'm talking about the first 24 hours when it is pretty much ground force vs ground force. If a surprise NK ground assault happens, then the amount of airpower that we could muster that quickly would not be enough to deal with the shear amount of NK artillery. You are talking about artillery emplacements dug deep into the mountain side, so a precision strikes on each emplacement would be necessary (assuming you even know where they all are).

I'm not saying that the US/UN/SK would lose the war, but I'm saying that the first 24 hours would bring way more casualties than both gulf wars + Afghanistan combined, unless we resorted to using tactical nukes which could destroy the artillery very quickly.

Not even enough USAF fighter/bomber pilots in the region. Cali, NV, and EU would be where they would ferry from and there would be no energy to perform CAS until rest is had.

Atleast 24 hours before any assistant to Misawa, Osan, and Kunsan. No F-15 or F-22 from the area would be used besides enforcing air superiority. The rest is up to the Vipers in the area.

This is all assuming we don't mass up at other PACAF bases beforehand.

The South Korean army with a modern air force (that would have air superiority within minutes of the start of the war), a modern navy, and the North would have to cross one of the heaviest mined areas in the world.

In reality, the ROKAF can use their F/A aircraft for CAS. Their ground based air defenses would be more then enough to deal with their airforce. Of course some assets would be used for CAP.

 

[andycapps]

Venezula, Cuba, Vietnam

nah, i kid. NK is all alone there. lol.

That's my point.. For a World War, there have to be multiple parties involved. Million man army or not, North Korea doesn't stand a chance against the whole world.

 

[Gamecocks625]

Fixed.

Seriously, North Korea. Don't you dare mess with the last season of LOST. The OT will find you and throw rocks at your tanks...

...wait, your tanks are made of rocks, nevermind.

 

[JimmyV]

I live in Anchorage, next to an Army base. 'Plained enough?

thats gotta be the most self-centered dick thing i've heard in a while.

 

[daw840]

thats gotta be the most self-centered dick thing i've heard in a while.

LOL. So you would rather bad things happen to you than complete strangers?

 

[laserbeam]

Tactical nuclear strikes on the missile facilities and the artillery near the DMZ.

Why do people assume strategic nukes are the only option?

People forget just how small we have made Nukes. There is still some issues if we dont use surface penatrating ones even the smallest nuke still has a 1 mile radius or so of radiation etc

I live in Anchorage, next to an Army base. 'Plained enough?

They were saying on the news last night that the Missile Defense stuff in Alaska was eing activated in case the ICBMS ago haywire and decide to impact somewhere else.

 

[The Frankman]

so basically after looking at all the maps and analysis, if NK actually lauches one at Hawaii will all the islands be covered in cum? Can you imagine the cleanup? The pregnancies?

 

[JimmyV]

LOL. So you would rather bad things happen to you than complete strangers?

wtf? its like if your walking down the street and someone points a gun at you, and your like "no, that person instead", or they point it at someone else and your like "welp at least thats not me" and run. it just comes off bad.

so basically after looking at all the maps and analysis, if NK actually lauches one at Hawaii will all the islands be covered in cum? Can you imagine the cleanup? The pregnancies?

:lol theres a joke here I think but I feel like an idiot for not seeing it. I'll feel like a bigger one when I realize there is no joke.

 

[Lesath]

:lol theres a joke here I think but I feel like an idiot for not seeing it. I'll feel like a bigger one when I realize there is no joke.

 

[Smash]

The missile will never succeed I don't think they'll even try. Stop living in fear guys.

 

[JimmyV]

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

 

[ElectricBlue187]

I suppose it's possible that China is on board with the United States retaining its superpower status, and simply wants to maintain the status quo. No aspirations of superpower status in China. The spread of democracy is in no way a threat to their ideology. No sir....

Exactly how would China "risk" anything by discreetly fighting a proxy war against the United States? I mean, fuck...both China and Russia are obviously not 100% on board with us taking meaningful action against NK. Last I checked, both of them refused to approve our inspection of NK ships. Something Obama thought a necessary step in enforcing NK compliance

China and Russia have nothing to gain by opposing the United States. Their reluctance to condemn North Korea stems from their close history and work together during the Korean War. The bottom line is this, if NK invades SK, they are on their own and they both made that very clear after they started acting crazy lately.

You can try to paint this into some grand ideological stand on the part of China but the obvious truth is they are far more interested in money than ideology, they make a bit of money off their trade with North Korea but it's a drop in an ocean compared with their trade relationship with the United States.

 

[Chris R]

thats gotta be the most self-centered dick thing i've heard in a while.

sorry, why don't you go and make an island or something for them to aim at then

No, I would say "thank god it's not me," then call the cops. I would never say, "damn I wish that guy was pointing the gun at me instead of that guy."

exactly, I'm not going to wish they were aiming at my town instead of Hawaii...

 

[daw840]

wtf? its like if your walking down the street and someone points a gun at you, and your like "no, that person instead", or they point it at someone else and your like "welp at least thats not me" and run. it just comes off bad.

No, I would say "thank god it's not me," then call the cops. I would never say, "damn I wish that guy was pointing the gun at me instead of that guy."

 

[JimmyV]

NKorea just shot themselves in the foot.

I don’t know how much the rest of you know about Asian culture (I’m an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It’s not like it is in America where you can become successful by being a militant globalizer. If you screw someone over in Asia, especially your Southern brethren, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the N.Korean public, and Asia, after hearing about this, is not going to want a Kim Jong Il regime any longer, nor will they purchase N.Korean products. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but N.Korea has alienated an entire continent with this move.

N.Korea, publicly apologize and cancel your weapons programs, or you can kiss your ass goodbye, Kim.

 

[dark_chris]

NKorea just shot themselves in the foot.

I don’t know how much the rest of you know about Asian culture (I’m an expert), but honor and shame are huge parts of it. It’s not like it is in America where you can become successful by being a militant globalizer. If you screw someone over in Asia, especially your Southern brethren, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.

What this means is the N.Korean public, and Asia, after hearing about this, is not going to want a Kim Jong Il regime any longer, nor will they purchase N.Korean products. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but N.Korea has alienated an entire continent with this move.

N.Korea, publicly apologize and cancel your weapons programs, or you can kiss your ass goodbye, Kim.

I saw what you did there.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

You know, I just barely noticed that it looked like a penis. I was laughing at the geography.

 

[legend166]

You know, I just barely noticed that it looked like a penis. I was laughing at the geography.

Same here.

 

[Outcast2004]

The missile will never succeed I don't think they'll even try. Stop living in fear guys.

It's not about "living in fear"... it's about a crazy-ass dictator making threats and eventually being crazy enough to pull it off.

He DOES have nuclear capability, and it's only a matter of time before he lashes out against a neighbor like Japan... then we DO have to get involved.

I think the US has been more than patient when it comes to dealing with N. Korea as well as trying to not piss off Russia and China in the process.