Support NeoGAF

[Kittonwy]

By that do you mean Insonmiac shouldn't develop games every year and should take a bit longer for a better product?

Yes.

 

[kaching]

Never. They're already spreading themselves too thin by releasing a title a year, I would rather see them just put out a super high quality AAA game every other year, be more like Bungie and less like Treyarch.

So you're saying they're more like Treyarch than they are Bungie?

 

[Private Hoffman]

I dunno, I think Sony has Guerilla Games for the "longer projects".

Insomniac makes a game every year, and that's why I love them. They shouldn't change that up.

Resistance 2 looks more polished than many 3 year projects...

 

[Pai Pai Master]

So you're saying they're more like Treyarch than they are Bungie?

Treyarch doesn't make AAA quality games like Insomniac does.

Maybe it's just me, but when your favourite developer already makes one game each year, it's hard to want them to slow down at all.

 

[Nafai1123]

I dunno, I think Sony has Guerilla Games for the "longer projects".

Insomniac makes a game every year, and that's why I love them. They shouldn't change that up.

Resistance 2 looks more polished than many 3 year projects...

This. Time does not guarantee a game will be good, but Insomniac does.

 

[sankt-Antonio]

would be great if there was an diablo2 like hardcore mode- you die=>savegame deleted... this would bring the old arcade fever back to home - plus you would play way more carefully and tactical... DO IT! please! (but still have the difficult selectable!)

 

[Kittonwy]

So you're saying they're more like Treyarch than they are Bungie?

I think they're better than Treyarch obviously, I would LIKE to think of them as better than Infinity Ward but that really depends on how R2 turns out. I just don't think they need to be a studio that needs to be pumping out games every year when they can be a studio that everybody will TOTALLY anticipate their next game coming out like it's the next HALO or Zelda.

That's not to say they need to have a productivity level of a Sony Santa Monica which is like "whatever, we release whenever we feel like, completely ignoring any platform strategy and game library need like fuck the PS3 we make more money on the PS2 you get GOW3 in 2010 MAYBE" but closer to what Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch are doing with their franchises at the moment, which is to take their time with it.

It's like Q4B with the same dated lighting and shadowing engine, there was just no time to get those things in, and R2 JUST got decent shadow tech and still they're baking a ton of stuff and still I see bricks that don't cast shadows, not even baked shadows, I look at the side mirrors on the cars and I'm not sure those cast shadows in those videos, it doesn't need to be that way.

Even Naughty Dog could have used an extra six months. I would have traded Q4B (I bought Q4B btw) for more people thrown at R2, especially environmental artists to make every blade of grass perfect and shadow-casting, well maybe they can't really do that, but they're still baking a lot of shadows on a platform where I've seen devs just throw stuff in there and just let the shadowing engine do the work which is obviously fucking expensive to do but they still need more dynamic shadowing and lighting. I would take flickering shadows over no shadowing any day of the week, seriously.

 

[J-Rzez]

Never. They're already spreading themselves too thin by releasing a title a year, I would rather see them just put out a super high quality AAA game every other year, be more like Bungie and less like Treyarch.

Eeep. Neither of those 2 devs should be mentioned in your example, neither are flattering, and both have their downfalls. Let's just say, how about, Naughty Dog instead? They don't dev a new title every year

But while I understand what you're saying, you'd rather see them push the tech and polish even further, I think they do works that compared very favorably as is now, and we get a great new AAA every year to play from them to boot.

 

[Private Hoffman]

I think they're better than Treyarch obviously, I would LIKE to think of them as better than Infinity Ward but that really depends on how R2 turns out. I just don't think they need to be a studio that needs to be pumping out games every year when they can be a studio that everybody will TOTALLY anticipate their next game coming out like it's the next HALO or Zelda.

That's not to say they need to have a productivity level of a Sony Santa Monica which is like "whatever, we release whenever we feel like, completely ignoring any platform strategy and game library need like fuck the PS3 we make more money on the PS2 you get GOW3 in 2010 MAYBE" but closer to what Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch are doing with their franchises at the moment, which is to take their time with it.

It's like Q4B with the same dated lighting and shadowing engine, there was just no time to get those things in, and R2 JUST got decent shadow tech and still they're baking a ton of stuff and still I see bricks that don't cast shadows, not even baked shadows, I look at the side mirrors on the cars and I'm not sure those cast shadows in those videos, it doesn't need to be that way.

Even Naughty Dog could have used an extra six months. I would have traded Q4B (I bought Q4B btw) for more people thrown at R2, especially environmental artists to make every blade of grass perfect and shadow-casting, well maybe they can't really do that, but they're still baking a lot of shadows on a platform where I've seen devs just throw stuff in there and just let the shadowing engine do the work which is obviously fucking expensive to do but they still need more dynamic shadowing and lighting. I would take flickering shadows over no shadowing any day of the week, seriously.

I think you're absolutely nuts.

You're nitpicking about insignificant graphical issues IMHO.

Are you not impressed with the single player footage? It looks way better than any FPS I've ever played. The scale is massive, the lighting is much improved over Insomniac's other titles, as are the textures. Not to mention they've ramped up the effects (water) and animation (better mocap).

Really, you're being silly. Even a game like KZ2 (as hard as it is to believe) isn't perfect with graphics.

 

[Nafai1123]

needs more gifs

 

[Dibbz]

I agree with Kittonwy. Pre baked shadows everywhere on the enviroment. This is Insomniac's 3rd gen PS3 titles. Where's my dynamic shadows on all objects?

I understand that R2 is doing things gameplay wise no others games are doing but I just wish it looked even better.

 

[Kittonwy]

I think you're absolutely nuts.

You're nitpicking about insignificant graphical issues IMHO.

Are you not impressed with the single player footage? It looks way better than any FPS I've ever played. The scale is massive, the lighting is much improved over Insomniac's other titles, as are the textures. Not to mention they've ramped up the effects (water) and animation (better mocap).

Really, you're being silly. Even a game like KZ2 (as hard as it is to believe) isn't perfect with graphics.

I like the part of the orick map where you fight the titan and the goliath level, even the goliath level I was expecting some of the shadows to be cast on the barrel of Nathan's gun but they don't really. The forest level is just too dark and there really isn't that interplay of light streaming through onto actual characters and objects where you run through patches of light and you can tell it's an actual light source, and foliage casting shadows, I wish they would at least fake that and have a giant shadow map faking foliage shadows. Light streaming through should really make various spots in the forests bright.

Lighting and shadowing has never been insignificant issues and it was the ONE THING that seriously held back R&CFTOD's visuals and was NOT addressed in Q4B, and was the major thing that held back RFOM's visuals, it was NOT texture resolution. Games like UNCHARTED, Motorstorm and HALO3 (outdoor levels) looked great because of the lighting and shadowing, light needs to be bright, shadows need to be seen. Even GTA has a ton of shit casting shadows and it's a MASSIVE game world.

It's not like reflect/refractive water hasn't been done before, even Q4B's water was just like jello with no reflection or refraction, I'm glad to see them make the jump obviously.

Killzone 2 has more to worry about than graphics quite frankly.

 

[Tormentoso]

So when do the public beta begins,i pre-order mine on GS and register the code,but don't know when the beta starts.

 

[patsu]

I agree with Kittonwy. Pre baked shadows everywhere on the enviroment. This is Insomniac's 3rd gen PS3 titles. Where's my dynamic shadows on all objects?

I understand that R2 is doing things gameplay wise no others games are doing but I just wish it looked even better.

I beg to differ. In fact, I flat out disagree.

I'd say by law of diminishing returns, forget about shadows cast by bricks if everyone just passes them by. No one notices them during regular gameplay.

For future games, they should zero in on ideas that are fun, viral and no one has done before... like fighting huge monster the "Shadow of Colossus" way, like doing in-game Tsunami, or whatever they deem worthy.

The complains about textures are tactical at best. They are hygiene factors. Developers won't be able to win by focusing on these things.


EDIT: Once they get the big ideas right, the details (e.g., textures) can then come into play.

 

[FirewalkR]

Kittonwy, given the scale on display in here and the visuals they're accomplishing, I'd say they're easily at Uncharted level now. In fact, I'd say that it'll soon be the more technically accomplished game in PS3's library. It's looking freaking amazing, and we've just seen a bit of the game. Nonetheless, like you, I'd like to see Insomniac do an uncontested Game of the Year. Who knows, maybe R2's Edge 10 will be the first step.

 

[kaching]

I think they're better than Treyarch obviously,

Why would that be obvious? You made a very deliberate statement that portrayed them more like Treyarch, less like Bungie.

Insomniac was making a game a year long before you became a fairweather friend. R1 is a direct result of that iterative approach, a game I believe you've put a lot of time into...

 

[dralla]

What about the difficulty, it looks very easy, I see those Ravengers drop pretty quick, is it on Easy or is the game just easier than R1? I'm thinking of playing on Hard my first play through, Superhuman didn't give me much trouble in R1, I think i'm up for it :]

 

[DeadGzuz]

So when do the public beta begins,i pre-order mine on GS and register the code,but don't know when the beta starts.

I pre-ordered, how do you get a code from GS?

 

[Pai Pai Master]

I pre-ordered, how do you get a code from GS?

You'll have to go back and pick up a code voucher from them, they should be in by now.

They'll give you a code, take it to register.myresistance.net, input your code and you'll be e-mailed your Beta code that you'll use to register on your PS3.

 

[John_B]

After seeing the Goliath video (almost looked like the early photoshops) I went and pre-ordered the game.

It really looks improved over the first game in every regard. I really hope they have put more thought into the checkpoints this time around. Playing on the harder difficulties in the first game could really be a pain because you had the replay large sections over and over again.

I think Insomniac has been top notch so far this generation, really one of the most impressive next generation developers so far. I think it could be argued that Insomniac, compared to Naughty Dog (two very comparable devs), is a bit more quantity over quality. Naughty Dog even went and put trophy support in Uncharted, yet there was no trophy support in Quest for Booty.

I wouldn't complain too much though, Insomniac feels like a life savior this generation.

 

[Wollan]

I find this tempered look on Treyarch ironic considering they were the ones who collected the most GOTY awards of any company last year.

Edit: whoops, I mixed them with Infinity Ward.

 

[Kittonwy]

I beg to differ. In fact, I flat out disagree.

I'd say by law of diminishing returns, forget about shadows cast by bricks if everyone just pass them by. No one notices them during regular gameplay.

For future games, they should zero in on ideas that are fun, viral and no one has done before... like fighting huge monster the "Shadow of Colossus" way, like doing in-game Tsunami, or whatever they deem worthy.

The complains about textures are tactical at best.

Even Shadow of the Colossus has self-shadowing. ON THE PS2. The characters, the bosses, and the horse all have self-shadowing. And when you look in the direction of the sun it's much brighter. Did I mention they did that ON THE PS2?

 

[Kittonwy]

I find this tempered look on Treyarch ironic considering they were the ones who collected the most GOTY awards of any company last year.

Don't you mean Infinity Ward?

 

[cameltoe]

I think they're better than Treyarch obviously, I would LIKE to think of them as better than Infinity Ward but that really depends on how R2 turns out. I just don't think they need to be a studio that needs to be pumping out games every year when they can be a studio that everybody will TOTALLY anticipate their next game coming out like it's the next HALO or Zelda.

That's not to say they need to have a productivity level of a Sony Santa Monica which is like "whatever, we release whenever we feel like, completely ignoring any platform strategy and game library need like fuck the PS3 we make more money on the PS2 you get GOW3 in 2010 MAYBE" but closer to what Naughty Dog and Sucker Punch are doing with their franchises at the moment, which is to take their time with it.

It's like Q4B with the same dated lighting and shadowing engine, there was just no time to get those things in, and R2 JUST got decent shadow tech and still they're baking a ton of stuff and still I see bricks that don't cast shadows, not even baked shadows, I look at the side mirrors on the cars and I'm not sure those cast shadows in those videos, it doesn't need to be that way.

Even Naughty Dog could have used an extra six months. I would have traded Q4B (I bought Q4B btw) for more people thrown at R2, especially environmental artists to make every blade of grass perfect and shadow-casting, well maybe they can't really do that, but they're still baking a lot of shadows on a platform where I've seen devs just throw stuff in there and just let the shadowing engine do the work which is obviously fucking expensive to do but they still need more dynamic shadowing and lighting. I would take flickering shadows over no shadowing any day of the week, seriously.

show me a console game where every blade of grass cast a shadow man. Not even the mighty Crysis does that (wanna see some warhead shots running on Enthusiast? Do ya!!??)

 

[JB1981]

I don't remember it being posted, but there's a new weapon in this video.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/40382.html

Some sort of grenade launcher, looks a lot like the Demo's launcher from TF2. Looks like sticky grenades of some sort that explode almost immediately? Are you allowed to give us the lowdown on this new weapon, JS?

Also holy shit @ all those Grims! :lol

man, multi has really shaped up - looks much much improved.

 

[Wollan]

You are absolutely right, my bad.

 

[JB1981]

Kittonwy
...loves self-shadowing.

 

[Madman]

I would rather Insomniac keep this pace. I see no real value in changing their formula. They release a solid, large scope title every year. How many others do that?

And Kittonwy, you do realize that a 2010 date for GoW III would put Sony Santa Monica at around the same pace as Bungie in terms of how long it took them to get their next gen title out, right?

 

[patsu]

Even Shadow of the Colossus has self-shadowing. ON THE PS2. The characters, the bosses, and the horse all have self-shadowing. And when you look in the direction of the sun it's much brighter. Did I mention they did that ON THE PS2?

Yes, but not in every blade of grass or every mud brick. I'm not saying self-shadowing should be banished. I'm just saying it should not be in the driver seat, or discussed in a strategic meeting, etc.

Overall polish is important. Yes. But self-shadowing is not more important than inspirations, fun, viral, scope, interactivity, etc.

Self-shadowing is in R2. May be not as much as one likes, but it's there.

 

[Kittonwy]

Why would that be obvious? You made a very deliberate statement that portrayed them more like Treyarch, less like Bungie.

Insomniac was making a game a year long before you became a fairweather friend. R1 is a direct result of that iterative approach, a game I believe you've put a lot of time into...

I've been playing their games since Spyro actually. I would like a better-looking game, one that I've already pre-ordered, I happen to like HDR and self-shadowin, which was THE element that made Motorstorm a good looking game, and which was what made HALO3 outdoor environments way prettier than the indoor ones. Why wouldn't you want a better-looking game with HDR and self-shadowin?

Yeah and I'm actually one of the few people from the clan who actually stuck with RFOM, I would be playing RFOM every night instead of motherfucking GTAIV or burnout if I can only get people in the clan to go back to it. Even three hours before the fucking private beta ends I WAS PLAYING IT.

 

[Kittonwy]

Yes, but not in every blade of grass or every mud brick. I'm not saying self-shadowing should be banished. I'm just saying it should not be in the driver seat, or discussed in a strategic meeting, etc.

Overall polish is important. Yes. But self-shadowing is not more important than inspirations, fun, viral, scope, interactivity, etc.

Self-shadowing is in R2. May be not as much as one likes, but it's there.

Hey if Team ICO can do shadowing on every blade of grass and every mud brick ON THE PS2 they wouldn't need the PS3.

 

[Private Hoffman]

You do realize that Uncharted uses pre-baked shadows, too right?

There's nothing wrong with that technique so long as you don't have to dynamically change lighting conditions.

 

[patsu]

Hey if Team ICO can do shadowing on every blade of grass and every mud brick ON THE PS2 they wouldn't need the PS3.

Good thing I like cats.

Kittonwy, even if SotC was developed for PS3, I am pretty sure they won't focus on grass shadows... UNLESS those shadows can come alive and become monsters.

 

[RockmanWhore]

Some games have better HDR and self shadowing, but how many of them has 4xAA and a rock solid tearing free 30fps? One of the reasons I love those Insomniac games so much is how clean they look.

edit : I've just noticed something pretty funny in the gametrailer's dev walktrough 1 video. At 3 min 15-20, there's a little bug with a car door that keeps fliping, and jstevenson immediatly looks elsewhere, then as he passes the car, he carrefully look on the other side of the car, if you pay attention, you can see the door flipping like crazy over and over. Good job to the player, it took me a few view to notice it :lol

 

[SaitoH]

After seeing the Goliath video (almost looked like the early photoshops) I went and pre-ordered the game.

I did the same thing. hah.

Kittonwy: You know tech buzz words.

 

[Dibbz]

You do realize that Uncharted uses pre-baked shadows, too right?

There's nothing wrong with that technique so long as you don't have to dynamically change lighting conditions.

If it does then good job Naughty Dog because I couldn't even tell. Could you say the same about Resistance 2?

I'm not slating the game or anything, I'm just underwhelmed by what I've seen. The game doesn't need every balde of grass, every piece of paper to cast shadowns but the game needs to look a bit more aesthetically pleasing.

I think one of the biggest problems R2 has is there is not much going on in the space they have. If they clutered the ground with debris, pot holes etc the textures and lack of detail would not stand out as much.

Look at the top half of the picture and the game looks great. THe lighting etc and leaves help make a convincing image. The bottom half is totally detached from it all though. The ground looks barren and it stands out.

 

[McLovin]

I think Insomniac's games look fine especially with all the crap that's going on onscreen at one time. But I do agree with Kittonwy in that they should let their games bake a little longer... I mean hey it couldn't hurt right? I wouldn't mind waiting a little longer for a better game especially if its from Insomniac. I bet that with an extra year they could make a game that looks better then Killzone 2. Or better yet improve the graphics a little and jack up the frame rate to 60.

 

[Kittonwy]

You do realize that Uncharted uses pre-baked shadows, too right?

There's nothing wrong with that technique so long as you don't have to dynamically change lighting conditions.

Every game uses some pre-baked shadows as long as you can get away with them but it's about where you use them, in places where the player can't reach, but this isn't even an issue in UNCHARTED, sure they cheat but they really don't cheat much at all other than a couple of big levels, even when you have your flashlight on, you can pretty much walk up to anything, try to move around to see if that odd piece of rock or skull can cast a shadow on itself and most likely it does, and if you can lead Sully close to you, you can probably get that light to cast some self-shadows on objects that in most games don't cast shadows at all, all those electric panels that flash blue? Yeah they have dynamic SELF-SHADOW-CASHING LIGHTS. UNCHARTED really doesn't mess around when it comes to lighting and shadowing which is why it looks so great.

I think the point is that don't put a light there if you're not going to have it cast shadows and self-shadows. Don't put the sun there if you can't have a bit of lens flare when you're looking in its direction, it's odd to have some objects cast shadows and then have a pile of bricks right in the middle of the road that don't. Don't put water there if it isn't going to be reflective and refractive (looking at u TOD and Q4B). I'm GLAD Resistance 2 is looking better than RFOM, Resistance 2 SHOULD look better than RFOM, in every fucking way, and it's not like other shooters don't do self-shadowing and HDR lighting either, Resistance is my favorite fucking shooter franchise so why shouldn't I want it to be the best?

 

[Kittonwy]

Good thing I like cats.

Kittonwy, even if SotC was developed for PS3, I am pretty sure they won't focus on grass shadows... UNLESS those shadows can come alive and become monsters.

Well those shadows would become shadow monsters that have self-shadows and dynamic shadows.

 

[JB1981]

you're making me hate fucking shadows.

 

[Elbrain]

Hmmmm them 1up vids really fucking nice really nice.

 

[Dante]

If it does then good job Naughty Dog because I couldn't even tell. Could you say the same about Resistance 2?

I'm not slating the game or anything, I'm just underwhelmed by what I've seen. The game doesn't need every balde of grass, every piece of paper to cast shadowns but the game needs to look a bit more aesthetically pleasing.

I think one of the biggest problems R2 has is there is not much going on in the space they have. If they clutered the ground with debris, pot holes etc the textures and lack of detail would not stand out as much.

Look at the top half of the picture and the game looks great. THe lighting etc and leaves help make a convincing image. The bottom half is totally detached from it all though. The ground looks barren and it stands out.

Why not just post a direct grab of the same area?

 

[Bearillusion]

Even Shadow of the Colossus has self-shadowing. ON THE PS2. The characters, the bosses, and the horse all have self-shadowing. And when you look in the direction of the sun it's much brighter. Did I mention they did that ON THE PS2?

I don't want R2 to run at sub 30fps like SOTC. Framerate > shadows.

 

[TEH-CJ]

given the scale and amount of things going on at onces more than makes up for some missing minor shadows on some objects. really if you think about it we are complaining about something its so insignificant.

 

[TEH-CJ]

Why not just post a direct grab of the same area?

exactly

How can one look at that image and not be impressed?

i mean seriously.

 

[Kittonwy]

I would rather Insomniac keep this pace. I see no real value in changing their formula. They release a solid, large scope title every year. How many others do that?

And Kittonwy, you do realize that a 2010 date for GoW III would put Sony Santa Monica at around the same pace as Bungie in terms of how long it took them to get their next gen title out, right?

Bungie made a shooter with a single player mode AND a HUGE multiplayer mode, I'd like to see that amount of content from Sony Santa Monica for once. Some people might think God of War is big and it is to some extent, but Santa Monica is no Bungie, Bungie was the biggest thing MS has ever had (and it's stupid for them to let Bungie go independent because they WILL lose them at some point), Santa Monica is not the same thing to Sony.

Tech-wise while Team ICO got self-shadowing in SOTC, God of War 2 did not have self-shadowing in 2007. Seriously though, 2010 would be more than 3 years since pre-production doesn't start when GOW2 shipped, pre-production starts BEFORE GOW2 shipped. I think Sony should give Insomniac and Naughty Dog more time and give Santa Monica a kick in the pants, the Santa Monica God of War team has done NOTHING on the PS3 so far.

 

[Kittonwy]

you're making me hate fucking shadows.

You're self-shadowin as we speak.

 

[spwolf]

Lighting and shadowing has never been insignificant issues and it was the ONE THING that seriously held back R&CFTOD's visuals and was NOT addressed in Q4B, and was the major thing that held back RFOM's visuals, it was NOT texture resolution. .

Q4B was quick, short $15 game/chapter... they did not improve the graphics there.

 

[JudgeN]

What about limitation of the hardware? We can't really speculate on why there isn't this or that without being a PS3 developer and know what the system can handle. For all we know those shadows could drop the frame rate to shit, or the game could not even run at all. I'm no programmer but being a PC gamer has taught me that shadows can kill performance in some games, maybe this is one of them.

 

[Kittonwy]

Why not just post a direct grab of the same area?

The best part in this picture is teh self-shadowin and it should have moar.