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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!

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PanopticBlue

PanopticBlue

Member
Kawika said:
OSSC:

I came here to ask if anyone has tried using a VGA monitor w/ scan lines and line double/tripple modes to see if they were happy with how it looked compared to one of these Sony pro monitors. I like the idea of how cheaply one can get computers monitors that are in relatively good shape instead of dealing with BVMs that don't support 480 or higher resolutions.
Click to expand...

CRTcade on youtube did exactly this using an xrgb2. The results look fantastic, as you can see in the video. Would love to know if the OSSC would be able to come close to this performance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqNpuJDp8zo&t
 
P

PumpkinSpice

Banned
Kawika said:
After getting my 20F1U I just threw up my hands and could not believe this was the Holy Grail of monitors for some. I just think going backwards with screen tech is neat for some but wrong for me. The best idea going forward is to see what we can do with modern displays and despite the CRT glow and input lag there is not a lot to love about them.

So I bought a 4K 40" Samsung for my home office because I was sick of such a small display. In my office I had a 32" Samsung LCD, a few CRTs, Computer monitor and nothing seemed to look right on that 32".

I've used the firebrand X profiles for a long time. I used to prefer the sharp pixel look of his 5X profiles but when I got the new tv I thought the effect didn't look as good on my 4K.

BVM
MMX_BVM.jpg


4K w/ 5X profile

MMX_5XLCD.jpg


I wasn't really happy about it but I didn't really care that much. Later on I was in the menu of the tv and noticed the tv had a scaler that could stretch and shrink the image I was feeding it. I never used the 4X profiles because it left a lot of the screen unused but with this option on my new tv I could enlarge the viewing area w/o going to the 5x profile. My results really look closer to the CRT look I have been trying to attain since getting the xrgb. Cell phone images w/ no tripod. Sorry about that.


BVM

TMNT_BVM.jpg


4K w/ 4x Profile + TV Zoom.

TMNT_4XLCD.jpg



The lag on this tv is so low even the audio remains in sync to my crt. I think I finally found a way to enjoy my retro games without sitting 2-3 feet hunched over playing on my CRT.

I am going to keep my small pvm and sell my BVM. It kind of feels good.

(waits for someone to shit on it and make me second guess keeping my bvm).
Click to expand...

I still think all of the scanline effects except using 1/3 of the lines at 720p looks terrible. The softness of scaling that even improves the effect and makes it look more similar to a high-end CRT. If you prefer a sharper look I have to imagine just the default 4:3 mode at 720p scaled to 4K should look pretty sharp.
 
Kawika

Kawika

Member
SheepyGuy said:
I still think all of the scanline effects except using 1/3 of the lines at 720p looks terrible. The softness of scaling that even improves the effect and makes it look more similar to a high-end CRT. If you prefer a sharper look I have to imagine just the default 4:3 mode at 720p scaled to 4K should look pretty sharp.
Click to expand...

720p scaling doesn't look that good on this tv. That effect is what I would do with my HDMI nes on my old 1080p hdtv. My monitor does the 720 to 1440 really well. We all have our preferences and mine leans more to sharp than blurry.
 
G

Galdelico

Member
Galdelico said:
You may have read it on SHUMPS thread, but I'll post it here too, for further investigation. I had to momentarily get back to my older Asus, for retro gaming, because I experienced a very odd issue with my IPS LG 27MU67.

I still don't know if it had to do with its specific response time/overdrive settings, but on that monitor I couldn't play anything from interlaced sources (PS2, XBOX, GameCube and also 480i Saturn/PS games). Having the OSSC set to 'bob' for those systems (as I don't really like what it does with passthrough), each and every piece of stationary, flickering graphics left a temporary 'mark' on the screen, after a couple of minutes.
Examples: lifebars in fighting games (Virtua Fighter 2 on the Saturn, KoF Maximum Impact Regulation A on the PS2), as well as UI in racing games (the laps/times in Ridge Racer V on the PS2)... All those elements caused a visible 'ghosting' effect, ranging from a faint flickery area only noticeable against white backgrounds, to proper image retention on other solid colors (after playing Virtua Fighter 2 for ten minutes, you could clearly see the trace of the lifebars on the sky, during Shun Di's intro). Once again, the effect was temporary, but made me quite wary of even using anything that could potentially damage the screen on the long run.
Click to expand...
Quoting this again, because the issue I had with after-flickering and image retention with interlaced (bob-deinterlaced) sources on my LG 27MU67 seems to be fixed. I thought to report this as an update, since it's still related to how one can fully enjoy the OSSC on a 4K IPS PC monitor.

Basically, I changed one option (on the monitor itself) that I didn't even consider in the first place, because I thought it was tied to 4K contents exclusively: HDMI ULTRA HD Deep Color. Now that is set to 'on', everything seems improved... Refresh rate (upped to 59.94 and 60.00hz according to the manual), stabilty and even scrolling (that now appears to be perfectly smooth, with basically no ghosting, even with overdrive set to 'off'). After 45 minutes of continuous play with Saturn Virtua Fighter 2, there's no lifebars' burn-in, nor flickering areas on white backgrounds.

I'll keep testing, of course, and report back, if needed.
 
Y

Yawnny

Member
Kawika said:
The best idea going forward is to see what we can do with modern displays and despite the CRT glow and input lag there is not a lot to love about them.
Click to expand...

I agree that the nostalgia of a CRT hasn't been enough for me to boot up my PVM again. I picked up a PVM on Ebay, loved the scanlines, but couldn't stand that fucking 15Khz sound coming from the screen...

It's because of this god damn high pitch noise that I haven't turned it on in months. Some say they don't hear this noise on there CRT's. Others say that's part of the classic sound for them..

Even with gaming on it wearing closed-back headphones it's not enough to completely eliminate the sound.

I don't want to roll the dice with another $300+ with the hope that I'll get a PVM or BVM that doesn't emit this noise.. if any don't. Some that don't hear it are older and have lost the ability to even hear that frequency.

I've been half-assed saving for a Framemeister now.. apparently Solaris Japan still has them at a fair price
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
The noise is capacitor squeal. Its inherent to the tech on every cry in existence. Some people don't hear it because their ears aren't good enough.
**
Wow autocorrect botched that one.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
Yawnny said:
I agree that the nostalgia of a CRT hasn't been enough for me to boot up my PVM again. I picked up a PVM on Ebay, loved the scanlines, but couldn't stand that fucking 15Khz sound coming from the screen...

It's because of this god damn high pitch noise that I haven't turned it on in months. Some say they don't hear this noise on there CRT's. Others say that's part of the classic sound for them..

Even with gaming on it wearing closed-back headphones it's not enough to completely eliminate the sound.

I don't want to roll the dice with another $300+ with the hope that I'll get a PVM or BVM that doesn't emit this noise.. if any don't. Some that don't hear it are older and have lost the ability to even hear that frequency.

I've been half-assed saving for a Framemeister now.. apparently Solaris Japan still has them at a fair price
Click to expand...

Geez, even with headphones? Can I ask how old you are? Typically younger people hear the squeal moreso than older people. I know I used to be able to tell if a TV was on anywhere in the house when I was a kid/teen, but nowadays I don't much hear it when using my CRT - just barely when I first turn it on. I'm 37 and actually had my hearing tested about two years ago and I passed an audiologist's exam with flying colors....
 
T

TeaJay

Member
I hear it and it's sort of annoying, but game music usually drowns it out, and it often settles after the monitor has been one for a while.
 
Kawika

Kawika

Member
Yawnny said:
I agree that the nostalgia of a CRT hasn't been enough for me to boot up my PVM again. I picked up a PVM on Ebay, loved the scanlines, but couldn't stand that fucking 15Khz sound coming from the screen...

It's because of this god damn high pitch noise that I haven't turned it on in months. Some say they don't hear this noise on there CRT's. Others say that's part of the classic sound for them..

Even with gaming on it wearing closed-back headphones it's not enough to completely eliminate the sound.

I don't want to roll the dice with another $300+ with the hope that I'll get a PVM or BVM that doesn't emit this noise.. if any don't. Some that don't hear it are older and have lost the ability to even hear that frequency.

I've been half-assed saving for a Framemeister now.. apparently Solaris Japan still has them at a fair price
Click to expand...

I hate that squeal. Some are worse than others. I find my smaller pvm to be really, really loud. I can hear it in the next room (my wife doesn't for some reason, but she hears some droning noise in the morning that I can't. Funny how your range of what you can hear is so different). My BVM is quite quiet by comparison but its still there.

I bought a 40" 2016 model Samsung (KU 6300) for my home office (which i also feed all my retro consoles to) and when I plug in my Analogue NT (not the mini) it makes this weird whining noise in game mode but doesn't do it in other tv options. I found a way to minimize it eventually but I think the NT is giving some weird feedback that none of my other tvs picked up on save this new Samsung. This whining noise might actually get me to return a tv I quite like for the size and price.
 
M

Mega

Banned
NormalFish said:
The noise is capacitor squeal. Its inherent to the tech on every cry in existence. Some people don't hear it because their ears aren't good enough.
Click to expand...

Multiple sources say the flyback transformer is the usual culprit, not capacitors. I have an Extron sync converter box that has squeal and that is probably due to some kind of transformer inside.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...cy-squeal-in-faulty-crt-monitors-and-tv-and-w

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube#High-frequency_audible_noise

I can hear it on some of my CRTs, others are very quiet... and it can vary from one day to the next or during a gameplay session (it settles down and becomes quieter).
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Mega said:
Multiple sources say the flyback transformer is the usual culprit, not capacitors. I have an Extron sync converter box that has squeal and that is probably due to some kind of transformer inside.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...cy-squeal-in-faulty-crt-monitors-and-tv-and-w

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathode_ray_tube#High-frequency_audible_noise

I can hear it on some of my CRTs, others are very quiet... and it can vary from one day to the next or during a gameplay session (it settles down and becomes quieter).
Click to expand...

Huh. I'm fairly sure I had read that wikipedia page before. Good to know, I suppose.
 
Y

Yawnny

Member
NormalFish said:
Huh. I'm fairly sure I had read that wikipedia page before. Good to know, I suppose.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've read tons of info on this. I don't know if it's because I'm too lazy or not but I'm not going to open a CRT and try to replace a flyback transformer (with all safety precautions in mind of course)
 
R

Rydeen

Member
I'm in Kawasaki, just South of Tokyo and ran into this cool sight: A Taito service truck with a broken pinball machine in the back. Awesome to see a reminder of just how deep Japan's game culture goes.

fb_img_1489114089915d8ydp.jpg


EDIT: Whoops, this was supposed to go in the general Retro Game thread. Oh well, I'm sure you guys will appreciate it, too.
 
S

sixteen-bit

Member
Rydeen said:
I'm in Kawasaki, just South of Tokyo and ran into this cool sight: A Taito service truck with a broken pinball machine in the back. Awesome to see a reminder of just how deep Japan's game culture goes.

fb_img_1489114089915d8ydp.jpg


EDIT: Whoops, this was supposed to go in the general Retro Game thread. Oh well, I'm sure you guys will appreciate it, too.
Click to expand...

Awesome pic. Taito has such a lovely logo
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
Rydeen said:
I'm in Kawasaki, just South of Tokyo and ran into this cool sight: A Taito service truck with a broken pinball machine in the back. Awesome to see a reminder of just how deep Japan's game culture goes.

fb_img_1489114089915d8ydp.jpg


EDIT: Whoops, this was supposed to go in the general Retro Game thread. Oh well, I'm sure you guys will appreciate it, too.
Click to expand...

sixteen-bit said:
Awesome pic. Taito has such a lovely logo
Click to expand...

agreed! so glad they didn't change it
 
K

Kwansu Dudes

Member
This may be taboo here, but has anyone tried one of those cheap PS2 to HDMI converters from Amazon? I'd like to play my PS2 Slim on a PC monitor and I don't know if I should invest in a $30ish Converter or $45 Component cables + upscaler. Severe input lag my biggest issue (aside from possible hardware destruction due to cheap parts). I'm currently playing on a HDTV via Composite and it's alright, but not ideal for me. Any suggestions and opinions would be appreciated. Thank you!

HDMI Converter
------------------------
Upscaler
Component Cable

Edit: went with component and upscaler and it works fine. Component really makes some text much cleaner/HD.
 
P

Peltz

Member
Yawnny said:
I agree that the nostalgia of a CRT hasn't been enough for me to boot up my PVM again. I picked up a PVM on Ebay, loved the scanlines, but couldn't stand that fucking 15Khz sound coming from the screen...

It's because of this god damn high pitch noise that I haven't turned it on in months. Some say they don't hear this noise on there CRT's. Others say that's part of the classic sound for them..

Even with gaming on it wearing closed-back headphones it's not enough to completely eliminate the sound.

I don't want to roll the dice with another $300+ with the hope that I'll get a PVM or BVM that doesn't emit this noise.. if any don't. Some that don't hear it are older and have lost the ability to even hear that frequency.

I've been half-assed saving for a Framemeister now.. apparently Solaris Japan still has them at a fair price
Click to expand...

Some CRTs are much louder than others. I have one that I can't stand and one that is almost inaudible. I think most people here who complain about capacitor squeal have a very aged flyback transformer causing it to be louder than it should be.

It's why I got rid of a remarkable Panasonic 14" broadcast CRT I once owned. That thing had the best scanlines :)
 
Y

Yawnny

Member
RadarScope1 said:
Geez, even with headphones? Can I ask how old you are? Typically younger people hear the squeal moreso than older people. I know I used to be able to tell if a TV was on anywhere in the house when I was a kid/teen, but nowadays I don't much hear it when using my CRT - just barely when I first turn it on. I'm 37 and actually had my hearing tested about two years ago and I passed an audiologist's exam with flying colors....
Click to expand...

I'm 27. I've been told I have great hearing though :D

I like the look of a PVM in my basement, it adds to the feel of a cozy game room.. I'm not sure if I'll ever have long play sessions on it.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Yawnny said:
I'm 27. I've been told I have great hearing though :D

I like the look of a PVM in my basement, it adds to the feel of a cozy game room.. I'm not sure if I'll ever have long play sessions on it.
Click to expand...

just checking, but you tried degaussing it right? That can improve things.
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Guys, I can't find an NESRGB installer to save my life. I've mailed a couple modders and they've been busy or just didn't respond.

Anyone got a recommendation or a connection to someone who can do this?

Happy for you Davidwhangchoi.... but also mad jelly ;)
 
Y

Yawnny

Member
NormalFish said:
just checking, but you tried degaussing it right? That can improve things.
Click to expand...

You know what.. I actually haven't tried degaussing. From everything I read it seemed like that didn't have an affect on flyback transformer issues. I figured it was only for visual issues.

What's the best way to degauss? Are degaussing guns readily available these days?
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Yawnny said:
You know what.. I actually haven't tried degaussing. From everything I read it seemed like that didn't have an affect on flyback transformer issues. I figured it was only for visual issues.

What's the best way to degauss? Are degaussing guns readily available these days?
Click to expand...

I think most broadcast monitors have a built in function for it
 
D

davidwhangchoi

Member
Brhoom said:
*Drools*

Congrats man, I plan to get a moded one as well.
Click to expand...

BocoDragon said:
Guys, I can't find an NESRGB installer to save my life. I've mailed a couple modders and they've been busy or just didn't respond.

Anyone got a recommendation or a connection to someone who can do this?

Happy for you Davidwhangchoi.... but also mad jelly ;)
Click to expand...
thanks guys! i couldn't find a modder but saw this on the GAF sales thread (he said it was done by Bahamut) the cost was about the same as if sent in my system to be serviced.

i just picked up a few cheap games while grabbing food today that had the pins in them =)
Zc66qU4h.jpg


Gt9X1cPh.jpg


f46gEfRh.jpg


LPFayhJh.jpg


IcEsJobh.jpg


qxswim6h.jpg


5dNGqX8h.jpg
 
M

Mega

Banned
Yawnny said:
I have a Sony PVM-1342Q and don't believe it has a built in degauss. I'll look around and see what more I can find out.
Click to expand...

Degaussing only helps to clear up temporary screen distortion by reducing the CRT's built-up magnetism from the local environment. Shoddy, damaged or worn out parts that need replacing (flyback transformer) won't be affected. If you hear a loud sound when you turn on your CRT, that's the degaussing coil. It's possible it just doesn't have a button on the front panel.
 
Y

Yawnny

Member
Mega said:
Degaussing only helps to clear up temporary screen distortion by reducing the CRT's built-up magnetism from the local environment. Shoddy, damaged or worn out parts that need replacing (flyback transformer) won't be affected. If you hear a loud sound when you turn on your CRT, that's the degaussing coil. It's possible it just doesn't have a button on the front panel.
Click to expand...

Right, that's what I figured.. the audible"Pqwishhhh" when you turn it on.
 
Flying Toaster

Flying Toaster

Member
I am a neophyte to retro. I understand that this question is stupid and I read through most of the thread...

What TV or display unit am I looking for to start my retro journey. If this is a junk post and annoying I will accept my fate with pm's instead.


Thanks in advance.
 
L

Laevateinn

Member
Flying Toaster said:
I am a neophyte to retro. I understand that this question is stupid and I read through most of the thread...

What TV or display unit am I looking for to start my retro journey. If this is a junk post and annoying I will accept my fate with pm's instead.


Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...

It all comes down to what you're willing to pay and how much room you have.

Limited budget + room = find a CRT (with S-Video if possible)
Unlimited Budget + room = PVM/BVM
Decent Budget + no room = Get a framemeister or OSSC and use your HDTV.
 
Flying Toaster

Flying Toaster

Member
Laevateinn said:
It all comes down to what you're willing to pay and how much room you have.

Limited budget + room = find a CRT (with S-Video if possible)
Unlimited Budget + room = PVM/BVM
Decent Budget + no room = Get a framemeister or OSSC and use your HDTV.
Click to expand...

Just to start for now I ordered a frameister. I appreciate the response I am looking forward to getting back to my roots.
 
Kawika

Kawika

Member
Flying Toaster said:
Just to start for now I ordered a frameister. I appreciate the response I am looking forward to getting back to my roots.
Click to expand...

I don't know how new you are but I am going to give you some info I wish I knew going in and it might save you sometime reading through all the posts in this thread...

I am glad this is the choice you made. I like my Framemeister much more than my BVM. I prefer playing on a tv that is 40"+. With many of these CRTs you will be stuck in the 13 or 19" range. There are some larger bvms you can find but good luck ever moving them.

If you play a lot of tricky platformers or play games that require very precise timing you are going to want to get a CRT, OSSC or see if a HDMI mod is possible on the console that you do that with.

You are going to want to get a SD card upgrade to the newest firmware and I highly recommend going to this site to get pre made profiles for your consoles.

http://www.firebrandx.com/framemeisterprofiles.html

You are going to want to go euro scart over jp21 for the cables (unless you already have jp21 cables). There is a scart to xrgb adapter you can buy on ebay. Depending on where you live there are a few good places to buy cables. I like buying mine from the same person on ebay that makes the scart to xrgb adapter and a place in the UK for better quality but a little more on shipping (if you are in the us).

http://www.ebay.com/usr/retro_console_accessories?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/index.php?route=common/home

You should also check out retrorgb.com and My Life in Gaming on YouTube.

Good luck holding onto your wallet. :)
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Games that require precise timing should be okay if your display is very low latency. I honestly cannot notice the lag much at all even playing shmups or similar on my ~2ms computer monitor. If you've got a big ass TV with 40ms lag, though, that'll be a problem. Can't imagine 40ms would be enjoyable even with an OSSC, though. There's a point after around double where the framemeister's lag falls (~20ms) that things start to really fuck me up.
 
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