I always write the sound as BOINKK
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Retro AV Club Thread 2: Classic Gaming Done Right!
- Thread starter Mega
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I always write the sound as BOINKK
Are you looking for a rack for PVM/BVMs that you would find in an old TV studio (like a server rack) or shelving for consumer CRTs?
If the latter, have you looked at wire rack/shelving? I have some in my garage (not for tvs) but I think it would work. You can get shelf covers as well. They come in a ton of different configurations.
Example: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CL91Z6G/?tag=neogaf0e-20
bodine1231
Member
After getting my 20F1U I just threw up my hands and could not believe this was the Holy Grail of monitors for some. I just think going backwards with screen tech is neat for some but wrong for me. The best idea going forward is to see what we can do with modern displays and despite the CRT glow and input lag there is not a lot to love about them.
So I bought a 4K 40" Samsung for my home office because I was sick of such a small display. In my office I had a 32" Samsung LCD, a few CRTs, Computer monitor and nothing seemed to look right on that 32".
I've used the firebrand X profiles for a long time. I used to prefer the sharp pixel look of his 5X profiles but when I got the new tv I thought the effect didn't look as good on my 4K.
BVM
4K w/ 5X profile
I wasn't really happy about it but I didn't really care that much. Later on I was in the menu of the tv and noticed the tv had a scaler that could stretch and shrink the image I was feeding it. I never used the 4X profiles because it left a lot of the screen unused but with this option on my new tv I could enlarge the viewing area w/o going to the 5x profile. My results really look closer to the CRT look I have been trying to attain since getting the xrgb. Cell phone images w/ no tripod. Sorry about that.
BVM
4K w/ 4x Profile + TV Zoom.
The lag on this tv is so low even the audio remains in sync to my crt. I think I finally found a way to enjoy my retro games without sitting 2-3 feet hunched over playing on my CRT.
I am going to keep my small pvm and sell my BVM. It kind of feels good.
(waits for someone to shit on it and make me second guess keeping my bvm).
Sorry but the BVM looks much much better to me. The softness and glow add so much to the art. Mega Man's armor blends together so beautifully whereas with the 4X it looks too harsh and it just looks like a combination of squares. Look at Mega Mans legs,on the BVM it looks like the different blues blend together perfectly shaded and on the 4x its just two harsh colors. Also his eyes,on the 4X its just a white square and a black square. On the BVM its a beautiful oval eye. Blur is good,glow is good (a little noise is good too) its how it was meant to be seen.
Kiddy Dong
Member
Thanks, yeah I was thinking something like that. I'll have to find one that is high enough to fit my 20M4U.
Unrelated: today I picked up a Dell P780 monitor to upgrade my 31khz gaming setup. It seems almost like a PVM.
Well said!
You know what, I would have totally disagreed with you a year ago while solely using emulation and used to razor-sharp pixels. Over the past year however, I changed to official hardware and got myself an OSSC. I have the setting @ 3x on my 1080p screen which every so slightly blurs the image, which is slightly reminiscent of an old CRT - albeit not quite as special, it gives the same vibe.
Alter_Fridge
Member
thanks guys! i couldn't find a modder but saw this on the GAF sales thread (he said it was done by Bahamut) the cost was about the same as if sent in my system to be serviced.
i just picked up a few cheap games while grabbing food today that had the pins in them =)
Why did you open the carts up?
NormalFish
Banned
To clean and check authenticity and condition, I would think.
Best way to clean them
davidwhangchoi
Member
these are special carts that have a converter you can use to play japanese famicom games. it's actually a famicom cart with a converter to play in us machines. these are the only officially made nintendo converters out there. since i got a nes i wanted to buy some famicom games so i grabbed these games that had the hidden adaptors.
I don't follow NES stuff. But this is freaking cool.
The shelves are completely adjustable so they don't need the equal spacing they have in the pictures. You can also add additional shelves to the same unit on most. I'd look for overall dimensions that would fit the space then adjust shelf spacing/add shelves as needed. Casters can be a nice addition as well if think you'll be moving the unit to make wiring changes or change out consoles/monitors frequently.
sixteen-bit
Member
My gyromite had the famicom adapter as well
Lol, it does make a good BOINK before the Pqwishhh that's forsure.
All my monitors make a sound like "BNNGGG!" which is sort of like BOINK!
I second the recommendation of the Seville metal shelves. Adjustable shelf heights and each level can hold like 400 lbs.
This is my experience too. 40ms + 0ms solutions (OSSC, HDMI mods) on my HDTV are good enough for most retro games, but still delayed enough to be a nagging hindrance for hectic shooters and precision platforming.
I would go one step further and get a non-BVM CRT if you want the really nice blending. The pro Sony monitors still retain some of that emulator-like visual characteristic. I'll post an example.
I second the recommendation of the Seville metal shelves. Adjustable shelf heights and each level can hold like 400 lbs.
This is my experience too. 40ms + 0ms solutions (OSSC, HDMI mods) on my HDTV are good enough for most retro games, but still delayed enough to be a nagging hindrance for hectic shooters and precision platforming.
I would go one step further and get a non-BVM CRT if you want the really nice blending. The pro Sony monitors still retain some of that emulator-like visual characteristic. I'll post an example.
Sony BVM
JVC CRT
NormalFish
Banned
I still wish CRTs photographed better. It's such an ordeal getting photos that feel true to how they look in person. Bums me out every time.
sixteen-bit
Member
Yeah it's a lot of trial and error for me. I should read some literature on how to photograph CRTs well.
davidwhangchoi
Member
yeah i learned about it recently from a retro store manager.
the story i heard was nintendo initially ran out of carts so they used famicom games with a converter. once they produced enough carts, they stopped using the converter. so it's a rare to find these.
here's a pic of an early cart that i opened up that didn't have a famicom converter:
alot of the early gyromite carts has them. you can sell it for alot more if it has the converter. great find!
BVM looks so good.
man so agree with this. it's so much better in person.
is there a proper technic, that'll be cool to post =) i just grab my iphone and snap till it looks close to what i see in person.
Laevateinn
Member
Ultimately, it comes down to the shutter speed. You get best results if your shutter speed is slower than the refresh rate of the screen. I also try to do it a speed that is divisible by the frequency as well.
The longer the shot, the less CRT refresh lines you see. Unfortunately, more light is collected so the shot gets pretty washed out. This is where ISO comes in. The goal is to find a good compromise between shutter speed and ISO.
If your game is running at 60 frames per second, that means you want the shutter speed at 1/60 s or slower. This speed won't be able to collect a lot of light so it's better to have your shutter open longer. I get good results at 1/20 and an ISO of something like 640 (I can't remember off the top of my head). I will take a few quick shots and delete the ones that have too much CRT effects. It can still be better but I think the results I get are pretty good.
Here's some example shots from the latest Genesis Game of the Month (Ristar).
and here's one from Hyperstone Heist
davidwhangchoi
Member
the rainbow effect on the last two screens, i always try to get rid of that in my shots. it's tricky...
and here's one from Hyperstone Heist
bodine1231
Member
I'd say that the PVM is the perfect balance between consumer CRT and BVM. I always found the BVMs to be a little to sharp and the scanlines a little too thick compared to consumer CRT and the PVM.
If you have an iPhone just turn on HDR,takes perfect CRT pics. Here is one on my PVM.
I don't think there's any "right" or "wrong" answer to this. I would 100% be happy with a BVM, PVM, or consumer set that accepts RGB @ 60hz. It's my view that we are just lucky these things still function.
bodine1231
Member
It's just personal preference. I certainly wouldn't turn down a BVM under any circumstances even though I prefer the look of my PVM.
polyh3dron
Banned
I feel like the second hand PVM/BVM market has really dried up in LA over the past 12 months or so. I got super lucky last fall and found a post-production house selling off a few PVM20M4Us for $30 each, so I bought one of those.. but now I rarely see any go up for sale on Craigslist that aren't asking an arm and a leg.
At one point I even visited a post-production house in Burbank to by a BVM20F1U for $150 last year but they couldn't get it to turn on. 😔
At one point I even visited a post-production house in Burbank to by a BVM20F1U for $150 last year but they couldn't get it to turn on. 😔
That really depends on the PVM. Some are near identical to a BVM, if not in fact the same tube.
Yeah, it's never quite the same. I can get close with my mirrorless camera, but charging it, setting it up, uploading pics... it's a hassle vs. smartphone snaps + direct upload. I got burnt out on doing the former.
That lines up with my own exp. I shot handheld so I did 1/40 shutter speed, lower I would get camera shake blur.
I have some old shots that I'd say look almost exactly like what I see on a PVM/BVM in person. I don't like what imgur resizing options do to these (smeared/lost detail, dull colors), and I don't wanna mess with anyone's bandwidth by posting full size images in quotes, so I'll post only links:
http://i.imgur.com/Bgspm8d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SR94TJm.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/J6QuFNc.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OOxFslM.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/bekj9z2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FQVGvjj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/k6NSsDj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YM8H1xL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DwADviZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/0gUAOcC.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/7Tbiw0s.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/LLfFzSJ.jpg
Mihos
Gold Member
I heard that Nintendo originally manufactured carts with the converters for the small NYC-only launch, then the NES-native PCBs got manufactured after the NES got a full release in North America.
I feel that would make them super rare and expensive. They seem to be pretty common, enough to make the story of a city-specific batch with converters very unlikely. They don't go for much more than the regular cart either, like $10 more.
I think it's more likely that early on they used the surplus of Fami PCBs to make up the difference of NES boards. I know at one point Nintendo was hedging its console's future on the Famicom Disk System so perhaps they were offloading extra Fami PCBs to the American market while pushing Japanese consumers to buy their disk games.
davidwhangchoi
Member
thanks for the tip!
sir, you are correct =) (edit: i actually really don't know. lol) did you beat breath of the wild yet?
I have over 45 hours clocked and have only beaten the first dungeon (if you want to call it that).
I'm averaging 4.5 hours a day in this game for the past 10 days. I don't think I've ever spent that kind of time on one game before. The crazy thing is, it's still fresh to me and I can't wait to go home and continue exploring it.
This game continues to exceed the hype I had for it all these years. I don't think I'm beating it any time soon either. I'll probably clock another 30-50 hours before it's all over.
Have you played your copy? I know you're not really feeling the Switch right now.
That sounds as likely as any theory I've ever heard. The North American NES launch is so odd and poorly documented compared to how things are today. I wish I could see footage of people reacting to it on store shelves in 1985 just for the lolz.
davidwhangchoi
Member
i'm tempted to, those neogeo games look interesting. i'm still on the nes at the moment and if i don't open the switch i'll definitely buy it for wii u.
Does Switch continue to track time when the game is paused? I have 70~ hours in Zelda with maybe "40%" explored... mostly the Eastern half of the map. I say "40%" because within those charted lands there's tons of stuff I haven't seen. You can stay in one region, walk and climb all day and still miss stuff. I have 40~ of 120 shrines completed and 850~ Korok seeds left to be found. It's crazy to think I still haven't seen the majority of the game yet.
blast processed
Member
The more I read stuff like this, the more I want a Switch and this game. Must resist.
I keep thinking I'll buy it on Wii U so I can hold off with a switch till Mario Odyssey comes out.
Trailblazer34
Banned
I've always heard that 480i games can't display or run games at 60fps or something, is this true? When I'm playing say a Gamecube or Xbox game at 480i on a HDTV, does that mean it can only run at 30fps if the output is interlaced? How does it work? I don't really care about graphics or IQ, but this is a big deal, if true.
PumpkinSpice
Banned
It's not really true but it's kinda complicated. There are lots of games that run at 60"fps" at 480i.
But at 480i the TV doesn't display full frames each time the scanlines run down the screen. You get what's called a "field" instead, which is half a frame spaced out in the interlaced pattern. It takes two full fields to make a frame. So you can either display 30 full frames each over two fields or 60 fields, none of which are technically a frame on their own, relying on image retention from previous field being pretty similar to look decent.
Some games on some systems take advantage of this to do only less work drawing out frames, doing 240 lines each frame at 60 rather than rendering 480 lines and only displaying half. If you hear about "field rendering" on PS2 that's exactly what's going on; it's a neat trick to save RAM and rendering work but makes forcing 480p on those games sometimes impossible.
RadarScope1
Member
I don't believe the NYC-only story of those converters is true. More likely they were used during the following year (86) during the nationwide roll-out as they significantly expanded the markets covered across the US. They would have boosted the manufacturing process after the NES really took off that year. The converters are not common but they are not terribly rare, either -- just difficult to find because the only way to know for sure if a cart has one is to open it. There a few signs to look for that can give you a good idea without opening but you can't be 100% sure.
David, if those prices shown are what you paid then you got a good deal. Most go on eBay for like $15-$20.
David, if those prices shown are what you paid then you got a good deal. Most go on eBay for like $15-$20.
davidwhangchoi
Member
yeah, the carts are 4,5 bucks.
a sure way to tell without opening is looking at the end of the pins: there's a little tooth sticking out from each pin. if that tooth is sticking out off to the side at the end of each pin, it's a converter (see pic), if the tooth on each pin is dead center, it's doesn't have it.
I was playing all weekend in handheld mode... and this is coming from someone who almost never used Wii U Off-TV Play (bulky, awful screen) and who never liked complex 3D games on the 3DS (slide pad and right nub suck, subpar low-res screens). Personally, I literally forget I'm playing on a handheld because I'm so into the game and the screen is that good. I think this is the best launch portable hardware Nintendo has put out, barring battery tech limitations beyond their control and some people having Joycon problems (I've had none).
Relevant to this thread, I downloaded KOF '98 for Switch to see what it's like and it has pretty robust config options. Various scanline levels with bilinear filtering (it works well with the lines) or raw pixel output. Fine control over screen size, width, position and orientation (a shooter would be playable vertically on the Switch tablet or a rotated monitor). Output looks clean and pixel perfect, although I'm still playing around to determine exactly which size/width values produce even scanlines and even pixels... I think these values are different on the 720p tablet screen vs. docked on a 1080p display but I think I got it dialed in nearly perfect last night. I'm hoping VC games are this good in terms of PQ and options. Wii U was pretty bad for anything that wasn't GBA or DS.
Beer Monkey
Member
I can't believe I never noticed that.
I used to pick them out from Gyromite cartridges by weight. After a while you can tell the heavy ones.
I downloaded KOF98 too, haven't played it since the new patch that brightens things up. Interesting about orientation - playing shooters tate on the Switch screen is a mini-dream I have.
Let us know the perfect settings!
Kawika
Member
You know I always wonder this about input lag. I wonder if its more to do with reaction time of a person vs the lag of the framemeister.
I have the following TVs and this is more or less my experience.
Sony (2015) 4K 810c. Pre Firmware patch was fine post patch reported 30-45ms (fume)
Pre patch I could only play my Analogue NT and modern consoles. Input lag was noticeable.
Framemeister was unplayable and I could never make anything look right to boot.
I basically only use this for movies now. Pretty much everything but rpgs and slow action games is unplayable
Dell G Sync TN Monitor estimated 1-2 ms input lag
Framemeister mostly everything is playable. No real issues.
Analogue NT - Mike Tyson Down - nuff said
Samsung (2016) 4K KU6300 - 19ms
Framemeister mostly everything is playable. Kind of had trouble playing Super Mario World here and there.
Analogue NT - Made it to Wily stage w/ 0 deaths in Megaman 2. I think this is fine.
Sony BVM 20F1U CRT - No Lag (240p test suite manual lag test constant perfect)
No issues. Feels better than the dell and Samsung but not enough to ruin my timing playing on the other two displays.
I really hope to get the OSSC in the next batch. If it behaves like my Analogue NT does I am certain that this will be my go to solution over the CRT. I'd much rather play in a relaxed position than hunched over staring at a 19".
If my use of bold is not allowed please let me know and I will correct it.
YesManKablam
Member
My OSSC arrived today, which is great. Unfortunately, I'm not getting any video from it. Audio is working fine, so I'm guessing it's the cable I'm using to connect it to my display.
So, I'm using a PS1 with an RGB cable. That's connected to the OSSC, which is connected to my monitor via a DVI-DisplayPort cable. Is the DVI-DisplayPort the reason I'm not getting any video?
So, I'm using a PS1 with an RGB cable. That's connected to the OSSC, which is connected to my monitor via a DVI-DisplayPort cable. Is the DVI-DisplayPort the reason I'm not getting any video?
It wasn't brightness. The Neo Geo games had messed up gamma or colors... it was nasty. But they look great now. http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=232157298&postcount=658
This guy landed on the exact same numbers I did when I was testing last night:
3x at 720p (tablet): 150
3x at 1080p: 100
4x at 1080p: 133
socksfelloff
Member
Try playing with the different scaling and output options on the OSSC. I don't own one but I've seen people post many times that certain scaling options don't work on their tv/monitor.
For reference you can find all the specs supported by display port here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort
NormalFish
Banned
This lines up with my experience quite well.
<16ms: perfect, effectively unnoticeable, in rhythm games I'll feel it but can adjust without issue.
16-32ms: acceptable, but 2 frames is sometimes questionable in the twitchiest/most precise genres
32-48ms: noticeable, but I can manage it in games that aren't very punishing and don't require precision such as action adventure games (zelda, for instance) and of course RPGs
>48ms: problematic in everything except RPGs, with inputs feeling noticeably off.
I feel this way about latency in online games, too, with similar numbers barring very good latency mitigation netcode. When I play csgo, for instance, I can feel the difference between ~15ms (the best I get online) and ~70ms which is the higher end of what I get on east coast servers (i'm in FL).
This is the only thing that I can tolerate.
Beer Monkey
Member
Damn, and I thought I was a stickler for lag.
2 frames (32ms or less) and I'm completely fine. I'm probably buying a 21ms OLED this year. I'm still a HUGE CRT fan though.
2 frames (32ms or less) and I'm completely fine. I'm probably buying a 21ms OLED this year. I'm still a HUGE CRT fan though.
NormalFish
Banned
wtf do you play that 16-32ms fucks you up? Literally the only games that this actually fucks me up in is rhythm games.
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