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[BreezyLimbo]

I've never said she was Mary Sue and to be honest I didn't even know what that was until I saw people posting about it... I just kept saying she took a deep breath and went Super Sayan like I was reading a Shonen Jump.

She is the Light Yagami of Star Wars.

.But all that said, I did like it! I truly did! I just didn't love it, and there are lots of reasons why. I don't think Rey is a Mary Sue. I've never made that claim. I do think her development was truncated though.

Eh, I feel that the flow is as good as anything for her power increase. Like...unlike the OT or PT, which are almost exclusively centered around Anakin/Luke, Rey has comparitively less time focused on her compared to Luke or Anakin in their debut films. The Force Awakens is more of an Opera in this sense, because Kylo, Finn, and Rey are all important and they all share alot of screentime. They all share similar character developments through the course of the film. Like to compare how much of a space opera TFA is compared to previous films, look at Darth Maul in TPM, or Darth Vader in ANH. Kylo Ren's amount of screen time eclipses both of them(Darth Vader might have an almost equal amount of screen time).

So it may feel truncated, but the flow of the movie is preserved in turn.

 

[Duane Cunningham]

I was just literally saying to someone the other day how much I love the fact that TFA doesn't over explain stuff and specifically used as an example the scenes of her putting on the helmet and staring into the sunset. I pointed out how, without dialogue, it conveyed her sense of longing to get off planet and go have adventures like the old school rebel pilots she seems to collect the relics of. I pointed out how, if this were the prequels, or most modern movies, we'd need a bunch of dumb, unnatural dialogue to really, really beat us over the head with it. She'd be all "Oh BB8, I just know there's more out there for meeee" or whatever.

I sure never thought I'd see people complaining about this stuff.

 

[Surfinn]

Think about the Force. "What if I had this awesome power to move things with my mind, and I just had this awesome power inside of me." Implant a character like that in any story. There is a Mary-Sue-ification attached to the Force when it comes to all the protagonists of the Star Wars movies.

I see the Force as amplifying ones natural abiltiies, thus why Anakin wins a pod race and is a great mechanic, why Luke can aim down an impossible trench shot, and why Rey is a good fighter and can fly ships. It's an amplification of power. If you have the Force, you're suddenly more important than the random joe trooper.(Sorry Finn, we don't know if you're Force-imbued)

Right, but my point is that this isn't exclusive to the SW universe. You see this sort of thing in lots of other movies in the fantasy/adventure genres. Lord of the rings has it, but in object form (rings). It's pretty much a staple of those genres, so what's the point of this discussion? If you can't overlook this fact, you won't find enjoyment out of the films. Seems like arguing for the sake of it.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Right, but my point is that this isn't exclusive to the SW universe. You see this sort of thing in lots of other movies in the fantasy/adventure genres. Lord of the rings has it, but in object form (rings). It's pretty much a staple of those genres, so what's the point of this discussion? If you can't overlook this fact, you won't find enjoyment out of the films. Seems like arguing for the sake of it.

Eh, like I mentioned before I'm just in this conversation because it's interesting. I don't tend to discuss movies 'through a microscope'. I just came in because the Spoiler Thread linked this thread and I wanted to discuss Anakin, The Greatest Mary Sue that ever lived and his descendants, Mary and Sue.(That's a joke.) ((It was from the Spoiler thread.)) (((I was riffing on people who use Mary Sue as a detraction to Rey/Anakins character))).

 

[Azih]

For me the biggest difference between Young Anakin and Rey (also Young Luke) is the age difference where they start displaying their Force Feats. Rey and Luke started their journey as young adults while Anakin was years away from even being a teenager. That makes a significant difference especially as ANH and TFW spent time establishing Rey and Luke's crappy early life and far more reasonable explanations of how they earned their life skills before their adventure began. Anakin was the son of a slave that had more toys and gadgets to play with than Ritchie Rich.

 

[ChubbyHuggs]

Also, a coworker kept mentioning that he thinks shes Obi Wan's granddaughter. Haven't had time to fully scan each thread, but anyone else on here think that?

 

[Surfinn]

Eh, like I mentioned before I'm just in this conversation because it's interesting. I don't tend to discuss movies 'through a microscope'. I just came in because the Spoiler Thread linked this thread and I wanted to discuss Anakin, The Greatest Mary Sue that ever lived and his descendants, Mary and Sue.(That's a joke.) ((It was from the Spoiler thread.)) (((I was riffing on Mary Sue detractors))).

But if your argument is that the force is a Mary Sue enabler, I just don't see what you're gunna get out of any conversation on the subject. By that logic, Rey already fits the criteria by default. And anyone else in these genres, for that matter.

Just doesn't seem like useful discussion.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

For me the biggest difference between Young Anakin and Rey (also Young Luke) is the age difference where they start displaying their Force Feats. Rey and Luke started their journey as young adults while Anakin was years away from even being a teenager.

It's funny because the Jedi tend to only train children younger than Anakin. The Cosmic Asshole Council almost rejected Anakin because he was 'too old'.

Also, a coworker kept mentioning that he thinks shes Obi Wan's granddaughter. Haven't had time to fully scan each thread, but anyone else on here think that?

It was thrown around in the Spoiler Thread, I personally want her to be related to Qui-Gon Jinn in anyway.

But if your argument is that the force is a Mary Sue enabler, I just don't see what you're gunna get out of any conversation on the subject. By that logic, Rey already fits the criteria by default. Just doesn't seem like useful discussion.

I use it as a throw-away argument to rebuke Anakin haters. I don't seriously believe it's a Mary-Sue-Ificator. That's simply the Star Wars equivalent of 'Magic', some people can do it and some can't. It's a lost art, so those that do, do it...simply have the capability to.

Now, if Rey started constructing ships out of the Force, then we can discuss that the Force is indeed a Mary-Sue-ifier.

 

[Surfinn]

And like I mentioned, The Force itself is a Mary-Sue-ificator, imbuing those that have it with...greater powers.

I don't seriously believe it's a Mary-Sue-Ificator.

Ok well now I'm lost. This has been a frustrating experience, lol.

 

[SCULLIBUNDO]

I don't know about Rey being a Mary Sue. But her refusal of the call to adventure aka randomly running out on Maz when presented with Luke's sabre sure felt forced as all hell and awkward.

I don't necessarily think she's a Mary Sue so much as a result of lazy writing.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Ok well now I'm lost.

It was a facetious argument because people said that Anakin was a Mary Sue, and it was me dissecting and basically exploring how he could be a Mary Sue(Despite there being sufficient explanation of him winning the pod race, and well, auto piloting his way to victory in the final fight).

My conclusion in exploring that was that it was indeed the Force that is the Mary Sue of the Star Wars universe. Anyone who has it is automatically a Mary Sue, and seeing as How Anakin had a billion midichlorians in him(Which contain the Mary Sue), he was the Greatest Mary Sue that ever lived.

So naturally Luke inherited some of that Mary-Sueness along with Leia, and Kylo Ren is one of the proponent of Mary-Suedom. The other is Rey, if she is indeed related to Luke or the Skywalkers, than she is part of a line of Mary Sues.

But that was just me exploring the concept of the Force being a Mary Sue in the Star Wars universe, in a facetious argument constructed to counter the 'Anakin is a Mary Sue' logic being thrown around(Another propagated observation being that Rey in fact goes through some of the motions Annie did in TPM, see a page back where Rey flys falcon successfully=Anakin flies Podracer successfully, both being mechanics, both being experience with the machines.)

My conclusion is as thus-Neither Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sues, and calling one of them a Mary Sue makes the other a Mary Sue by default because of the comparative feats shown in both movies.

In a nutshell, I'm kinda trying to see both sides of the coin that Devil Advocationifies myself in seemingly arguing two different things, when it is in fact a flow of thought from myself onto writing to coherently discuss multiple points at once. Springing from a facetious line(Rey is descendant of a Mary Sue, therefore she has inherited that) in the other thread, I thus diverge to two different Breezy's-The one arguing she isn't a Mary Sue, and one exploring which aspects would make her a Mary Sue interjected with Anakins own feats and comparing both of them.

 

[Surfinn]

It was a facetious argument because people said that Anakin was a Mary Sue, and it was me dissecting and basically exploring how he could be a Mary Sue(Despite there being sufficient explanation of him winning the pod race, and well, auto piloting his way to victory in the final fight).

My conclusion in exploring that was that it was indeed the Force that is the Mary Sue of the Star Wars universe. Anyone who has it is automatically a Mary Sue, and seeing as How Anakin had a billion midichlorians in him(Which contain the Mary Sue), he was the Greatest Mary Sue that ever lived.

So naturally Luke inherited some of that Mary-Sueness along with Leia, and Kylo Ren is one of the proponent of Mary-Suedom. The other is Rey, if she is indeed related to Luke or the Skywalkers, than she is part of a line of Mary Sues.

But that was just me exploring the concept of the Force being a Mary Sue in the Star Wars universe, in a facetious argument constructed to counter the 'Anakin is a Mary Sue' logic being thrown around(Another propagated observation being that Rey in fact goes through some of the motions Annie did in TPM, see a page back where Rey flys falcon successfully=Anakin flies Podracer successfully, both being mechanics, both being experience with the machines.)

My conclusion is as thus-Neither Anakin nor Rey are Mary Sues, and calling one of them a Mary Sue makes the other a Mary Sue by default because of the comparative feats shown in both movies.

In a nutshell, I'm kinda trying to see both sides of the coin that Devil Advocationifies myself in seemingly arguing two different things, when it is in fact a flow of thought from myself onto writing to coherently discuss multiple points at once. Springing from a facetious line(Rey is descendant of a Mary Sue, therefore she has inherited that) in the other thread, I thus diverge to two different Breezy's-The one arguing she isn't a Mary Sue, and one exploring which aspects would make her a Mary Sue interjected with Anakins own feats and comparing both of them.

You said minutes ago you think the force is a Mary sue construct within itself, then proceeded to directly contradict that. So I'm confused. I get what you're saying about the Rey/Anakin feat comparison.. But a now you're saying the force is NOT said construct, right?

 

[Azih]

The age difference and the comparative feats is what makes the Anakin -> Rey comparison pointless to me. That and the Jesus birth. Man the Darth Vader backstory was screwed up by George Lucas.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

You said minutes ago you think the force is a Mary sue construct within itself, then proceeded to directly contradict that. So I'm confused. I get what you're saying about the Rey/Anakin feat comparison.. But a note you're saying the force is NOT said construct, right?

That was me exploring the concept of how a "mary sue" would exist in the universe of Star Wars. In a sense it's like I was arguing with myself, but because of the nature of the conclusion I made(Force=Mary Sue), it sprung from a facetious comment that was compounded upon through observations(In the Spoiler thread, people were talking about how Anakin was a Mary Sue, and I said 'He was the Greatest Mary Sue that ever lived' jokingly). Now jumping to this thread, it's given me time to reflect on why people think Anakin is a Mary Sue and why Rey isn't a Mary Sue. In doing so, I came to the realization that both Anakin and Rey were similar(One is a prodigy with machines, and shows interest in Pod Racing; The other is a scavenger who has had to work with machines, and wants to become a pilot as shown with her toy and helmet), so if they are both similar and none of them are Mary Sues, the conclusion that I facetiously came to was that therefore the Force is the Mary Sue, because it imbues and strengthens the skills of its users.

It's kind of like Quantum Physics. I'm simultaneously thinking that Anakin/Rey are Mary Sues, whilst also thinking of ways to reject that notion and in clarifying that they are in fact, not Mary Sues.

The age difference and the comparative feats is what makes the Anakin -> Rey comparison pointless to me. That and the Jesus birth. Man the Darth Vader backstory was screwed up by George Lucas.

Eh, even the Jedi Council trains younger children than Anakin to be Jedi. And again, Mozart made his first musical compositions at the age of 5, it's not farfetched to think in a universe where robots are common that there can't be people who are just naturally adept with the machinations involved with robots. 10 is a fair age for a Prodigy to show what he is skilled in.

So to me, the age thing for Anakin is well, a point used to detract from his character(Not as acted by the child actor dude, but as he's supposed to be in the canon).

 

[LegendofLex]

After meeting Finn, we're told she's able to pilot a ship. But it's not just that, she's not just competent like Luke. She's spectacular like Anakin.

Outside of the winning shot, nothing she's done in TFA is unprecedented for basically anyone in Star Wars who we know is even capable of flying a ship in a combat situation.

Hell, the person who flies in the diciest conditions (and the most like Rey's) in the entire OT is Lando, who we barely get any introduction to at all aside from his political leadership. And both Han and Poe do much more insane things over the course of TFA.

She's hardly the prodigy pilot of the new trilogy - just the prodigy mechanic. Importantly, her crowning achievement is simply not losing a dogfight; it's not blowing up the enemy's biggest and best weapons against insurmountable odds.

Not only that, but the film signposts her love of flying as soon as it shows her with tons of Rebel pilot paraphernalia; it's not a detail tossed in right before she takes the Falcon.

She outsmarts Han Solo in his own ship and fixes the Falcon.

She's only able to keep ahead of him based on her knowledge of modifications to the ship, which she apparently participated in. The one moment where she diagnoses an issue in a fashion that might be known to him, they're both on the same page.

She saves Finn from a tentacle monster that had previously been killing everything it touches.

This is mostly plot armor for Finn, not a referendum on Rey's unstoppable abilities.

She overpower's Ren's mind probe.

Leia also does this in A New Hope.

She masters force persuasion, something she's only heard about in stories, in about a minute.

Luke fails at deflecting lasers from the remote fewer times than Rey fails at Force persuasion, despite putting on a blast shield helmet and having no access to his senses at all.

In fact, the films are quite consistent about one thing as far as Force powers go: if someone using the Force with good intentions simply believes hard enough, they will win.

A "lack of faith" is the only real failing when it comes to Force-wielding protagonists.

She evades detection in the heart of Starkiller base (except when she's magically spotted by Finn when the plot requires).

Is this so implausible given that she did the same thing on Han's freighter earlier?

Also, plot armor.

She force pulls a saber from the snow on her first try out from the clutches of a seasoned force user. She holds her own on her first encounter using a light saber against a trained saber user. Then, the moment her disadvantage is pressed, she is able to tap into the force and overpower Ren. A moment that should have been the climax of the movie is just another moment in a long list of incredible feats.

See my point about "believing" above. This was definitely a tipping point for Rey in that she was pushed literally up against a cliff and had nothing to rely on but faith in the Force. It's basically the same scenario as Luke vs. Death Star, except instead of believing the Force will guide the torpedo down the hatch, she believes she'll beat back Kylo Ren.

The PT are shitty films with common sense and logical thought thoroughly abandoned.

I'd argue that the PT actually does adhere to a kind of logic (meta-textual analysis of the PT as a mirror to the OT can be quite rich), it's just not a logic that comes through especially strongly in the writing.

 

[Surfinn]

The age difference and the comparative feats is what makes the Anakin -> Rey comparison pointless to me. That and the Jesus birth. Man the Darth Vader backstory was screwed up by George Lucas.

Right, which makes the Anakin/Rey comparison a joke. You're talking about a character in a movie with nearly zero coherence being compared to a well implemented/acted one in TFA.

It's bogus to even attempt this. Apples and oranges, in many respects. The PT are shitty films with common sense and logical thought thoroughly abandoned.

That was me exploring the concept of how a "mary sue" would exist in the universe of Star Wars. In a sense it's like I was arguing with myself, but because of the nature of the conclusion I made(Force=Mary Sue), it sprung from a facetious comment that was compounded upon through observations(In the Spoiler thread, people were talking about how Anakin was a Mary Sue, and I said 'He was the Greatest Mary Sue that ever lived' jokingly). Now jumping to this thread, it's given me time to reflect on why people think Anakin is a Mary Sue and why Rey isn't a Mary Sue. In doing so, I came to the realization that both Anakin and Rey were similar(One is a prodigy with machines, and shows interest in Pod Racing; The other is a scavenger who has had to work with machines, and wants to become a pilot as shown with her toy and helmet), so if they are both similar and none of them are Mary Sues, the conclusion that I facetiously came to was that therefore the Force is the Mary Sue, because it imbues and strengthens the skills of its users.

It's kind of like Quantum Physics. I'm simultaneously thinking that Anakin/Rey are Mary Sues, whilst also thinking of ways to reject that notion and in clarifying that they are in fact, not Mary Sues.

No offense but please call me when you're done arguing with yourself and attempting to juggle so many thoughts at once, lol, it's too frustrating to have a decent conversation (not intended to sound mean). You've got interesting ideas but they're so disorganized it's impossible to have an effective discussion.

 

[Principate]

We in fact see first hand that she knows how to fight when she singlehandedly takes care of the goons Unkar sent to steal BB-8, and then proceeds to knock Finn flat on his ass.

That's like the worst gif ever to prove a point, literally just swinging a staff. Even a complete novice could do that. The overriding point is that whole point doesn't make sense regardless of how you look at it, if she was so great at fighting why did she get her ass kicked by heavily injured Kylo Ren until the force literally bailed her ass? How would the force even bail her ass in the first place when Kylo Ren is not only has years more experience in it than she does, she also has almost no experience with it in the first place.

It was a text book ass pull moment, She literally pulled that win out of her ass, I mean the force.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Reading this thread is bad for my health. So much garbage that wouldn't have been posted if Rey had a dick.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Right, which makes the Anakin/Rey comparison a joke. You're talking about a character in a movie with nearly zero coherence being compared to a well implemented/acted one in TFA.

It's bogus to even attempt this. Apples and oranges, in many respects. The PT are shitty films with common sense and logical thought thoroughly abandoned.

Oh, if we compare the films as which one is better, then TFA wins. But to say that the character as they are shown(Mechanic, slave who dabbles in Machines, Wants to pilot a Pod Racer) is moot because of how bad the movie is generally, it's a bad argument.

As is, this is what is shown in both TPM and TFA-

Anakin is a slave>Anakin is good with machines>Anakin works in his owners junk shop fixing machines>Anakin is working on a Pod Racer so he can compete and win the freedom of his Mom>Anakin competes and wins.

Rey is a Scavenger>She's scaling the Destroyer and seemingly knows where to find valuable components>She is shown to have a speeder>She is shown to have a Rebel Helmet and Toy, hinting that she wants to be a pilot>She says that she's worked on the ships and knows of the "Junk Ship" through experience with it>She successfully flies the junk ship and out maneuvers trained pilots and escapes Jakku

Other than the age(Prodigies exist. I bring up Mozart to prove this. Anakin is a prodigy.) difference, the line of events are similar enough that to call Anakin a Mary Sue defaults Rey as being one as well.

Now, despite the PT being bad and TPM being the worst, it does a well enough job of showing Anakin through the motions and explaining that he's good with machines. TFA does the same, it shows Rey is good with machines and that she can actually fight. But the reason why people say Rey is a Mary Sue, is because A:She's a girl B:The movie isn't as focused on her as it was on Anakin.

No offense but please call me when you're done arguing with yourself and attempting to juggle so many thoughts at once, lol, it's too frustrating to have a decent conversation (not intended to sound mean). You've got interesting ideas but they're so disorganized it's impossible to have an effective discussion.

I confuse myself sometimes.

 

[LegendofLex]

That's like the worst gif ever to prove a point, literally just swinging a staff. Even a complete novice could do that. The overriding point is that whole point doesn't make sense regardless of how you look at it, if she was so great at fighting why did she get her ass kicked by heavily injured Kylo Ren until the force literally bailed her ass? How would the force even bail her ass in the first place when Kylo Ren is not only has years more experience in it than she does, she also has almost no experience with it in the first place.

thatsnothowtheforceworks.gif

*Luke's ship sinks into the swamp*

LUKE: Oh, no. We'll never get it out now.
YODA: So certain are you. Always with you it cannot be done. Hear you nothing that I say?
LUKE: Master, moving stones around is one thing. This is totally different.
YODA: No! No different! Only different in your mind. You must unlearn what you have learned.
LUKE: All right, I'll give it a try.
YODA: No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.

*Luke closes his eyes and concentrates on thinking the ship out. Slowly, the X-wing's nose begins to rise above the water. It hovers for a moment and then slides back, disappearing once again.*

LUKE: I can't. It's too big.

YODA: Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hm? Mmmm.

*Luke shakes his head*

YODA: And well you should not. For my ally in the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. Its energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...
*Yoda pinches Luke's shoulder*
... not this crude matter.
You must feel the Force around you.
*gesturing*
Here, between you... me... the tree... the rock... everywhere! Yes, even between the land and the ship!

LUKE: You want the impossible.

*Yoda lifts the ship out of the swamp*

LUKE: I don't... I don't believe it.
YODA: That is why you fail.

The way the Force actually works (giving scrappy underdogs phenomenal cosmic powers that let them take on the Establishment, usually within a day or two of them discovering they have those powers) literally makes any character in Star Wars being a "Mary Sue" almost an invalid point. You might as well say Jesus was a Mary Sue.

 

[BTM]

We're going to be discussing this until Episode VIII aren't we.

 

[-griffy-]

That's like the worst gif ever to prove a point, literally just swinging a staff. Even a complete novice could do that.

Please. It's a crappy, half framerate, slowed down gif from a movie still in theaters, making this literally the best gif I could find of the scene in a 10 second google search. An out of context moment from a full scene in the film where she beats up several goons who have her surrounded and then chases down and knocks Finn on his ass. The gif was just a reminder that the scene exists. But now it's not enough that the film establishes that she is a capable fighter before she faces Kylo, but that the gif I picked is a crappy gif. Okay.

the overriding point is that whole point doesn't make sense regardless of how you look at it, if she was so great at fighting why did she get her ass kicked by heavily injured Kylo Ren until the force literally bailed her ass? How would the force even bail her ass in the first place when Kylo Ren is not only has years more experience in it than she does, she also has almost no experience with it in the first place.

Because that's not how the Force has ever worked in the movies.

 

[Surfinn]

thatsnothowtheforceworks.gif



The way the Force actually works (giving scrappy underdogs phenomenal cosmic powers that let them take on the Establishment, usually within a day or two of them discovering they have those powers) literally makes any character in Star Wars being a "Mary Sue" almost an invalid point. You might as well say Jesus was a Mary Sue.

Exactly. Which makes the comparison to Anakin ridiculous, in my opinion (Ep. 1).

I mean, my god. He wasn't even using the force in the most important part of the film. He accidentally does everything, almost from beginning to end, when he's in the cockpit, "whoops" "what does this button do" "yippie!" "let's try spinning, that's a neat trick!" "wooooow!" - ing his way to the finish line.

Lot's of other things he's doing in the film I can get behind, but that entire scene is an embarrassment for his character and the SW saga as a whole.

Rey's actions are INTENTIONAL and feel like their heavily enhanced by her force power, not ACCIDENTAL (even if they may not always go as planned), unlike Anakin in the most crucial scene in the entire movie.

 

[Principate]

Please. It's a crappy, half framerate, slowed down gif from a movie still in theaters, making this literally the best gif I could find of the scene in a 10 second google search. An out of context moment from a full scene in the film where she beats up several goons who have her surrounded and then chases down and knocks Finn on his ass. The gif was just a reminder that the scene exists. But now it's not enough that the film establishes that she is a capable fighter before she faces Kylo, but that the gif I picked is a crappy gif. Okay.


Because that's not how the Force has ever worked in the movies.

The force was never an active participant in any of the fights in the movies, not even in the shitty prequels. Anakin was brash and was punished by Obi Wan, Obi wan made a shitty maneuver that somehow worked. Luke got his ass kicked by Vader and later finally surpassed Vader because he was an aging slow husk.

Even among whatever small consistently Star Wars has in it's fights, that battle was pure bullshit. You could exchange the force with nakama and it would make just as much sense.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Exactly. Which makes the comparison to Anakin ridiculous, in my opinion (Ep. 1).

I mean, my god. He wasn't even using the force in the most important part of the film. He accidentally does everything, almost from beginning to end, when he's in the cockpit, "whoops" "what does this button do" "yippie!" "let's try spinning, that's a neat trick!" "wooooow!" - ing his way to the finish line.

Lot's of other things he's doing in the film I can get behind, but that entire scene is an embarrassment for his character and the SW saga as a whole.

Rey's actions are INTENTIONAL and feel like their heavily enhanced by her force power, not ACCIDENTAL (even if they may not always go as planned), unlike Anakin in the most crucial scene in the entire movie.

I mean...that's what the force does. And he's a damn kid, him going 'yippie' and spinning isn't really out of place for him. And again, you're crediting Rey for the same thing Anakin goes through(Feeling that she was enchanced by the force.) Him blowing up the ship using the Force is no different from Rey focusing on the Force to beat up Kylo.

It's like...the Force is magical bullshit that makes everyone ridiculous to the viewer.(Trying to find the scene where Anakin blows up the ship but I can't because Youtube hates him)

 

[Principate]

I mean...that's what the force does. And he's a damn kid, him going 'yippie' and spinning isn't really out of place for him. And again, you're crediting Rey for the same thing Anakin goes through(Feeling that she was enchanced by the force.) Him blowing up the ship using the Force is no different from Rey focusing on the Force to beat up Kylo.

It's like...the Force is magical bullshit that makes everyone ridiculous to the viewer.(Trying to find the scene where Anakin blows up the ship but I can't because Youtube hates him)

The difference here is that Kylo is a relative master of the force but isn't attributed those same benefits because well, it's the plot man.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

The difference here is that Kylo is a relative master of the force but isn't attributed those same benefits because well, it's the plot man.

He's a goddamn child who's insecure, who was shot by a bolt caster and slashed by a lightsaber before fighting with Rey

He is no where near being a master of the force.

 

[Surfinn]

I mean...that's what the force does. And he's a damn kid, him going 'yippie' and spinning isn't really out of place for him. And again, you're crediting Rey for the same thing Anakin goes through(Feeling that she was enchanced by the force.) Him blowing up the ship using the Force is no different from Rey focusing on the Force to beat up Kylo.

It's like...the Force is magical bullshit that makes everyone ridiculous to the viewer.

No, that's NOT what the force does. I think you're missing my point of it all being an accident. I seriously doubt he's in tune with the force when he's ACCIDENTALLY DOING EVERYTHING in the most crucial point of the film.

See what I mean now? About it being a horrible comparison since the PT doesn't even portray Anakin as a competent character? He has the wits/knowledge/skill to build C3-PO and win a podrace yet accidentally flies a ship into a huge battle and accidentally destroys the target needed to advance the plot.

That's not the force, that's just awful filmmaking.

 

[-griffy-]

The difference here is that Kylo is a relative master of the force but isn't attributed those same benefits because well, it's the plot man.

Kylo is strong with the Force, but he's a complete fucking mess who is prone to outbursts and being pulled in different directions and tempted by the light and insecure and unsure of himself and is afraid he is going to fail. That's why Rey beats him at the end.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

No, that's NOT what the force does. I think you're missing my point of it all being an accident. I seriously doubt he's in tune with the force when he's ACCIDENTALLY DOING EVERYTHING in the most crucial point of the film.

See what I mean now? About it being a horrible comparison since the PT doesn't even portray Anakin as a competent character. He has the wits/knowledge/skill to build C3-PO and win a podrace yet accidentally flies a ship into a huge battle and accidentally destroys the target needed to advance the plot.

That's not the force, that's just awful filmmaking.

He doesn't do everything, though. He does the same thing Luke did in ANH. It's a parallel done to show that he is indeed related to Luke Skywalker. If you got 'He does everything' from him piloting a ship, instead of 'Ooooh so he does the same thing Luke did, but because he is supposed to be the Chosen One as established earlier in the film, he did it at a younger capacity.' It's a parallel in the story, it's a storytelling technique.

And yes, the film is awful, but that doesn't detract the canon of the character as it is established. Just because you hate the movie, doesn't mean that everything that happens in it is moot.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I mean...that's what the force does. And he's a damn kid, him going 'yippie' and spinning isn't really out of place for him. And again, you're crediting Rey for the same thing Anakin goes through(Feeling that she was enchanced by the force.) Him blowing up the ship using the Force is no different from Rey focusing on the Force to beat up Kylo.

It's like...the Force is magical bullshit that makes everyone ridiculous to the viewer.(Trying to find the scene where Anakin blows up the ship but I can't because Youtube hates him)

Anakin - whoops I accidentally blew up the control ship and saved the day! Whoops! I mean, yippee! By the way, what's the Force?

vs.

Rey - Actively engaged in combat, using skills she acquired over her life, and then tuning into the Force as instructed earlier.

He doesn't do everything, though. He does the same thing Luke did in ANH. It's a parallel done to show that he is indeed related to Luke Skywalker. If you got 'He does everything' from him piloting a ship, instead of 'Ooooh so he does the same thing Luke did, but because he is supposed to be the Chosen One as established earlier in the film, he did it at a younger capacity.' It's a parallel in the story, it's a storytelling technique.

And yes, the film is awful, but that doesn't detract the canon of the character as it is established. Just because you hate the movie, doesn't mean that everything that happens in it is moot.

I agree Lucas was trying for a parallel in that Luke and Anakin fly a ship and blow up a big thing at the end of their respective first films, but the parallels really end there.

Luke was an experienced pilot, had some rudimentary training in using the Force, was being prompted by Obi-wan to apply what he's learned in a difficult situation. He did what he did via experience, effort and being in tune with the Force.

Anakin was in a ship he'd never flown before - and had never flown a ship before, period. He flies into the control ship by accident. He blows it up by accident. (And by accident I mean crappy writing.) He did what he did because, well other than bad writing there's zero reason conveyed in the film for why Anakin did what he did. It was a big giant "whoopsie".

 

[-griffy-]

I think it was meant to be implied that Anakin's shenanigans were caused by the Force influencing and guiding him into "accidentally" doing the right stuff. But the movie was just bad at movie stuff, so it all becomes half baked. I mean, the Force is the reason he is the only human capable of podracing, and what gives him the ability to build C3PO at his age (ugh), so that is supposed to extend into that crap at the end. The route they chose to demonstrate that crap in the climax of that film was just a bad call though, and it all kind of stems from the boneheaded decision of making Anakin a baby in that film instead of a young man like Luke or young woman like Rey.

 

[Principate]

He's a goddamn child who's insecure, who was shot by a bolt caster and slashed by a lightsaber before fighting with Rey

He is no where near being a master of the force.

He was trained for years in the force. The dark side is fuel by anger and hatred, it's not a hindrance in terms of force usage. Total composure is literally the anti-thesis of the dark side.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Anakin - whoops I accidentally blew up the control ship and saved the day! Whoops! I mean, yippee! By the way, what's the Force?

vs.

Rey - Actively engaged in combat, using skills she acquired over her life, and then tuning into the Force as instructed earlier.

I agree Lucas was trying for a parallel in that Luke and Anakin fly a ship and blow up a big thing at the end of their respective first films, but the parallels really end there.

Luke was an experienced pilot, had some rudimentary training in using the Force, was being prompted by Obi-wan to apply what he's learned in a difficult situation. He did what he did via experience, effort and being in tune with the Force.

Anakin was in a ship he'd never flown before - and had never flown a ship before, period. He flies into the control ship by accident. He blows it up by accident. (And by accident I mean crappy writing.) He did what he did because, well other than bad writing there's zero reason conveyed in the film for why Anakin did what he did. It was a big giant "whoopsie".

He's flown a podracer. Like, unless Reys speeder counts as a ship and a Podracer(Marginally more dangerous) doesn't >_> Anakin blowing up a ship is still in line with a what a Skywalker can do. Like, Rey for example does crazy flips and does this crazy maneuver that lets Finn fire the stuck cannon onto a Tie Fighter, which is just as forced as Anakin flying a fighter.

Hell, Rey confirms this because right afterwards she's like 'I don't know how I did that! I've never flown like that before!'. So she's not as experienced as you're giving her credit for. Again, look at the crazy maneuvers she pulled off in the Falcon. Anakin pulling off crazy maneuvers can be credited to one thing they both share-The Force. Yes, he is a child, but he is a prodigy(Again, as shown in the movies).

If we're going to blame anything, blame the Force.

He was trained for years in the force. The dark side is fuel by anger and hatred, it's not a hindrance in terms of force usage. Total composure is literally the anti-thesis of the dark side.

I didn't know insecurity was part of the dark side >_>;

 

[Principate]

He's flown a podracer. Like, unless Reys speeder counts as a ship and a Podracer(Marginally more dangerous) doesn't >_> Anakin blowing up a ship is still in line with a what a Skywalker can do. Like, Rey for example does crazy flips and does this crazy maneuver that lets Finn fire the stuck cannon onto a Tie Fighter, which is just as forced as Anakin flying a fighter.

Hell, Rey confirms this because right afterwards she's like 'I don't know how I did that! I've never flown like that before!'. So she's not as experienced as you're giving her credit for. Again, look at the crazy maneuvers she pulled off in the Falcon. Anakin pulling off crazy maneuvers can be credited to one thing they both share-The Force. Yes, he is a child, but he is a prodigy(Again, as shown in the movies).



I didn't know insecurity was part of the dark side >_>;

Of course it was did you honestly think Vader wasn't insecure as fuck? Even in the OT that was obvious. Vader lived in fear of the emperor, it's why he was as loyal as he was which states again and again in RotJ.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Of course it was did you honestly think Vader wasn't insecure as fuck? Even in the OT that was obvious.

Vader was absolute. Until the last film. And all he did then was lose to Luke in a duel, and push off an old man who was distracted. Not exactly a show of 'Mastery'.

 

[Principate]

Vader was absolute. Until the last film. And all he did then was lose to Luke in a duel, and push off an old man who was distracted. Not exactly a show of 'Mastery'.

Your implicitly implying Rey could have defeated Vader also.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Your implicitly imply Rey could have defeated Vader also.

Vader in the first film is light years ahead of Kylo in his respective first film. After all, he was the one who collapsed the Jedi Society.

You must have confused me saying that Kylo had more screen time in TFA than Vader did in ANH for Kylo being more powerful.

 

[Principate]

Vader in the first film is light years ahead of Kylo in the first film. After all, he was the one who collapsed the Jedi Society.

You must have confused me saying that Kylo had more screen time in TFA than Vader did in ANH for Kylo being more powerful.

Again, Kylo Ren was one that collapsed Luke's Jedi order, your arguments really aren't going anywhere.

 

[-griffy-]

Your implicitly implying Rey could have defeated Vader also.

Come on. There's a world of difference between Vader and Kylo. Vader was an elite fuck in the OT. Kylo hasn't even completed his training from Snoke yet. Kylo pretty much took baby Sith's first steps in this movie when he killed Han. Kylo is a mess in this film in a way that Vader never was in the OT. When shit goes wrong for Vader, he puts his foot down firmly, and silently chokes someone if he has to. When shit goes wrong for Kylo, he blows up and destroys an entire room, then makes a big show of Force pulling a dude across the room to choke him by hand. Vader walks all over Luke in ESB to the point that Luke is practically in hysterics. Kylo only succeeds in completely exposing his weaknesses to Rey because he's so unsure of himself. Your argument is a bad one right now.

 

[Principate]

Come on. There's a world of difference between Vader and Kylo. Vader was an elite fuck in the OT. Kylo hasn't even completed his training from Snoke yet. Kylo pretty much took baby Sith's first steps in this movie when he killed Han. Kylo is a mess in this film in a way that Vader never was in the OT. When shit goes wrong for Vader, he puts his foot down firmly, and silently chokes someone if he has to. When shit goes wrong for Kylo, he blows up and destroys an entire room, then makes a big show of Force pulling a dude across the room to choke him by hand. Vader walks all over Luke in ESB to the point that Luke is practically in hysterics. Kylo only succeeds in completely exposing his weaknesses to Rey because he's so unsure of himself. Your argument is a bad one right now.

Kylo Ren was trained by both Luke skywalker and Snoke and destroyed Luke's Jedi academy. That by itself implies he had far more training than Rey did, ignoring the fact he could stop a blaster bolt mid air with the force. It's actually a far more impressive feat than Vader ever showed. He may not have the same mastery of the force as Vader or self assurance (nor did he need to, to vastly outclass Rey from a logical perspective), but outside the fact he completely jobbed to Rey because he had to, he wasn't exactly a mediocre force user, even by the PT standards.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Again, Kylo Ren was one that collapsed Luke's Jedi order, your arguments really aren't going anywhere.

You mean Luke and like 10 children he was training

Your argument is bad. You're seriously comparing Lukes Jedi Order to the one in PT, the one where there were tons more Jedi.

 

[Surfinn]

He's flown a podracer. Like, unless Reys speeder counts as a ship and a Podracer(Marginally more dangerous) doesn't >_> Anakin blowing up a ship is still in line with a what a Skywalker can do. Like, Rey for example does crazy flips and does this crazy maneuver that lets Finn fire the stuck cannon onto a Tie Fighter, which is just as forced as Anakin flying a fighter.

Hell, Rey confirms this because right afterwards she's like 'I don't know how I did that! I've never flown like that before!'. So she's not as experienced as you're giving her credit for. Again, look at the crazy maneuvers she pulled off in the Falcon. Anakin pulling off crazy maneuvers can be credited to one thing they both share-The Force. Yes, he is a child, but he is a prodigy(Again, as shown in the movies).

If we're going to blame anything, blame the Force.



I didn't know insecurity was part of the dark side >_>;

Are you honestly implying that what Anakin did in the ship was even REMOTELY similar to what Rey did in the falcon? Come on man. She intended to do all of that and was able through her abilities with the force. She expressed her surprise with her abilities and that she can't believe she was capable of what she pulled off. Just like when she tells Finn he wouldn't believe how she got away (implying her surprise).

Anakin accidentally flew and destroyed with his thumb up his ass. This is why the PT is NOT a good comparison point. When you thunk of a Skywalker flying, do you thunk of accidental dumb luck or skill, harnessing the force (consciously or not)?

It's not an accurate portrayal. And no we don't get to dismiss it away as he it's just a kid, after what he did in the podrace especially.

It's not just that the movies are bad, but they make main characters look like downright idiots. It affects the comparison.

 

[Principate]

You mean Luke and like 10 children he was training

Your argument is bad. You're seriously comparing Lukes Jedi Order to the one in PT, the one where there were tons more Jedi.

You mean Anakin who also killed children and almost died in a pit of lava. You clearly hadn't thought that through, as I had guessed, because Anakin did very little quantitively in terms of the fall of the Jedi order, the biggest thing he did was help Palpatine kill Windu.

Rey shouldn't have been able to defeat a scrub Jedi, with her less than impressive combat skills, and her none existent training in the force

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Are you honestly implying that what Anakin did in the ship was even REMOTELY similar to what Rey did in the falcon? Come on man. She intended to do all of that and was able through her abilities with the force. She expressed her surprise with her abilities and that she can't believe she was capable of what she pulled off. Just like when she tells Finn he wouldn't believe how she got away (implying her surprise).

Anakin accidentally flew and destroyed with his thumb up his ass. This is why the PT is NOT a good comparison point. When you thunk of a Skywalker flying, do you thunk of accidental dumb luck or skill, harnessing the force (consciously or not)?

It's not an accurate portrayal. And no we don't get to dismiss it away as he it's just a kid, after what he did in the podrace especially.

It's not just that the movies are bad, but they make main characters look like downright idiots. It affects the comparison.

Sounds like you really hate anakin. No, I would say after Anakin struggled with the controls, he went and used the Force to help him pilot the ship effectively. And that is what Anakin did-harnessed the force(even if unconsciously). And yeah, that's what I expect from a Skywalker. And he did just that.

It's almost as the Force is this magical thing that people have varying control of, whether consciously or unconsciously, and it lets the user do ridiculous things. (Again, like Rey admitted-She had no idea how she managed to pilot the Falcon that effectively.) Anakin, having the most force out of everyone canonically, piloting a ship(after piloting a podracer effectively), destroying a Federation ship(As a parallel to Luke), makes sense.

You mean Anakin who also killed children and almost died in a bit of lava. You clearly hadn't thought that through, as I had guessed, because Anakin did very little quantitively in terms of the fall of the Jedi order, the biggest thing he did was help Palpatine kill Windu.

Aren't you the one trying to argue that Rey could defeat Vader? You're literally going no where. Rey beat Kylo, and that still doesn't make her a Mary Sue, deal with it.

 

[Principate]

Sounds like you really hate anakin. No, I would say after Anakin struggled with the controls, he went and used the Force to help him pilot the ship effectively. And that is what Anakin did-harnessed the force(even if unconsciously). And yeah, that's what I expect from a Skywalker. And he did just that.

It's almost as the Force is this magical thing that people have varying control of, whether consciously or unconsciously, and it lets the user do ridiculous things.



Aren't you the one trying to argue that Rey could defeat Vader? You're literally going no where. Rey beat Kylo, deal with it.

No I'm not You implied that. Yes and that's commonly implied as deus ex Machina (as in very commonly), hence this thread.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

No I'm not You implied that.

Exactly where did I imply that Rey could beat Vader, you brought that up out of no where

Quote me

(And no, 'insecurity' doesn't fuel the dark side, nor would it lead Kylo to victory as you misassume)

No I'm not You implied that. Yes and that's commonly implied as deus ex Machina (as in very commonly), hence this thread.

You mean the Force. That is what the Force is. That is why I fancied the idea, jokingly, that the Force itself is a Mary Sue.

 

[Principate]

Exactly where did I imply that Rey could beat Vader, you brought that up out of no where

Quote me

(And no, 'insecurity' doesn't fuel the dark side, nor would it lead Kylo to victory as you misassume)

Fear and hatred do (what do you think insecurity is), unless you now want to contradict Yoda's own statements.

Passion was stated in RoTS to be the primary source.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

Fear and hatred do (what do you think insecurity is), unless you now want to contradict Yoda's own statements.

Yoda was a cosmic asshole. And yes, I contradict Yodas statements because he tried to stop Anakin from training as a jedi and lo and behold this among other things he did and said to Anakin lead him to the Dark Side.

If you want to talk about Yoda, we'll talk about Yoda and his own insecurities in following the tradition of Jedi and how it lead the downfall of the Jedi.

And despite all that, insecurity STILL wouldn't lead Kylo Ren to victory. Rey beat her in a non-deus ex machina way.

 

[Azih]

Eh, even the Jedi Council trains younger children than Anakin to be Jedi.

Irrelevant to the point that Rey and Anakin are a poor comparison because of their age difference. Being taken to a school at a young age is not remotely the same as either Anakin or Rey. The comparisons don't hold.

Mozart made his first musical compositions at the age of 5, it's not farfetched to think in a universe where robots are common that there can't be people who are just naturally adept with the machinations involved with robots.

It is farfetched because Mozart is farfetched. Which is fine but the point is that Anakin as written is far far far more exceptional than Rey at their respective starting points because Anakin was younger and accomplished far more. He built droids and racers out of junk and he was a racing champion before he left his home planet. Neither Rey or Luke can compete.

So to me, the age thing for Anakin is well, a point used to detract from his character(Not as acted by the child actor dude, but as he's supposed to be in the canon).

The age difference is so large that it make comparisons to Rey incredibly weak. Rey is a character in the mold of Luke, not Anakin.

Kylo Ren is the Anakin of the third trilogy.