[Rumor] [MLiD] PSSR 2 Reportedly Doesn’t Have Frame Generation in the Plans: "developers hate it, hate it, hate it."
- Thread starter LectureMaster
- Start date
- Rumor
I don't think is wrong, he is talking about developers, and those developers don't want more work for consoles. I'm betting even if PSSR 2.0 is great, most games are going to be released with FSR3 or TSR because they already have that implementation from PS5 base. In PS6 sure they all will use
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CentralScrutinizer
Member
I do on MHWilds because its practically mandatory with my 4070 Super.
dgrdsv
Member
I think you should direct that to Sony since this is what they've said, not me.Never change dude never change. I guess for you it's fundamental remind that Sony and Cerny are always the last in gaming tech because seems you never miss the chance to make similar subtle insinuating in whatever tech discussion they are involved somehow. Though, it's a rumour by an anonymous source who the hell know how much reliable is such comment but sure arrogant incompetent Sony as always.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Eh.
I use Nvidia's Smooth Motion in literally every game.
I don't notice the big difference other than the games are running smooth.
Locked games gaining double the frames.
Playing emulated games that's locked 30 or 60 fps getting the double amount of fps is crazy.
Makes a huge difference. And with smooth motion I can't tell the input lag.
And I'm a guy who always have vsync off because of input delay.
I use Nvidia's Smooth Motion in literally every game.
I don't notice the big difference other than the games are running smooth.
Locked games gaining double the frames.
Playing emulated games that's locked 30 or 60 fps getting the double amount of fps is crazy.
Makes a huge difference. And with smooth motion I can't tell the input lag.
And I'm a guy who always have vsync off because of input delay.
Senua
Member
Lots of people. It's great with higher framerates. Say going from 90 to 120 or higher
A custom AI model for frame gen surely will get more quality and be faster than current FSR frame gen.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
I almost always turn frame gen off, it's not worth the artifacts IMO. I hate it how you'll see ghosting of the UI elements on the generated frames because DLSS doesn't understand those elements should remain static. Once I notice it it becomes impossible to un-notice it.
Felessan
Member
As I understand PSSR2 is next year version for Pro, and Pro doesn't really have power to do extra on ML front for FG per Cerny vision on suitable overall ML performance costs.
PS6 version is at least 2 years away and will be probably PSSR3+ with some feature deemable for it's power
PS6 version is at least 2 years away and will be probably PSSR3+ with some feature deemable for it's power
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I have major doubts that developers hate it, considering some are using FSR2 to upscale from 720p to get a 60FPS mode. I'm sure a lot would be happy to just click on framegen and call it a day, lag be damned.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Corporal.Hicks
Gold Member
I use DLSS FG in almost every game because it has no noticeable downsides, while it considerably improves my experience. I see a huge improvement in motion clarity, and the games feel smoother. DLSS FGx2 makes huge difference especially in very demanding UE5 games.
Native 4K TAA 87fps vs 172fps with DLSSQ + FGx2
People who complain about FG lag tend to exaggerate, or perhaps they use a much inferior AMD FSR FG/LSFG. Even if people use DLSS FG it's still possible they didnt set driver settings correctly (ultra low latency has to be turned on, and you need to turn off ingame Vsync and forcr Vsync in the driver settings). You also need to change the RTSS limiter from the default 'Async' mode to 'Reflex' to achieve the lowest possible lag. Most RTX 40/50 users don't even know that.
I set everything up correctly and measured a difference of just 2 ms in the best-case scenario (cyberpunk), and up to 10 ms in the worst (alan wake 2, Indiana Jones).
70fps, 31.3ms lag (the LDAT measurement is shown in the top right-hand corner) without FG
124fps, 33.8ms lag with DLSS FGx2
There's only a 2ms difference. That's literally placebo territory. Dude, 33.8ms lag still feels perfectly responsive. For comparison, PS5 games such as God of War (2018) have lag of 112ms, yet people here on NeoGAF aren't complaining because the game was still playable with a gamepad.
Games with FG are incredibly responsive on my PC and because I get almost twice the frame rate, my eyes see a much smoother picture and can track movement much more easily, which makes it easier to aim. Base framerare (without FG) in cybetpunk at 70fps isnt more responsive and more playable to me. DLSS FG at 124fps feels more responsive to me even though lag increased a little bit (2ms). That generated 124 fps is only less responsive compared to a true 124 fps native framerate.... and not a lot
. If I get between 80-120fps generated frames, sure I can feel some small difference compared to real 80-120fps, but once generated framerate is in 160-220fps territory I cant even tell a difference between FG and native framerate.I even tried testing DLSS FGx2 at a base of 30 fps, so I played at generated 60 fps. My experience was definitely closer to 60 fps than 30 fps. The improvement in motion smoothness and sharpness was significant, and I could aim much more easily too. At 30 fps, especially on an OLED screen, you can clearly see when the frames jump during slow camera panning. DLSS FGx2 fixes that. Of course, at such a low framerate, DLSS FGx2 motion artefacts become more apparent. However, that's much less noticeable than the 30fps judder, which is why so many people turn on motion interpolation on their TVs.
If I still played on consoles, I would definitely want the PS6 to support frame generation (FG), assuming the PS6's FG can offer the same experience as DLSS FG.
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Lucie Goosey
Member
Aren't these upscaling solutions mostly just tick off a checkbox? At least that's been the case for developers with DLSS.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Pretty much. Once again, MLiD with ZERO sources. Just "trust me bro." That will change like the wind in another month, he's notorious for that.
Lucie Goosey
Member
"Developers hate this one checkbox.." would seem crazy lmao. Especially if the option is then passed on to players.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
When they're already doing it on the PC front and have been for years. Most competent .ini to GUI coders have the checkbox in the settings for the gamer as well.
Some games I use it and it works well, others, I turn it off.
The "lazy devs" are the ones that give you zero option to disable/enable on the console version when they have the damned setting there in the PC version.
Zacfoldor
Gold Member
Framegen is not needed or wanted by me in the vast majority of console games. Especially those with demanding graphics.
Having it as an option to developers isn't necessarily good. A bad option removed is a good thing.
The amount of PS6 games that this would fully benefit would be very few and I don't trust devs to use it correctly in a console environment when I don't micromanage those settings.
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The problem is not the implementation. It's the support. If they implement Fake frames, and in some area is buggy, many artifacts, etc, they have to make time to fix. Also DLSS is not a checkbox, first require everything in your game have motion vectors, also can have artifacts, glitches and shimmering, so developer need tweaks how they render some things (that is the reason I don't believe PSSR 2 will fix everything if developers don't do those tweaks as they do for DLSS or FSR)
Lucie Goosey
Member
I haven't heard a lot of reports lately of issues from developers needing to spend a considerable amount of time fixing artifacts, glitches, and shimmering on PC titles using DLSS4 and FSR4, but maybe I'm out of the loop.
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CuteFaceJay
Member
Yeah I still find it very odd at the sheer amount of clowns pushing for it on the Steam Deck to the point of it feeling like propaganda for the dog shit idea of framegen.
I mean for fuck sakes if the hardware isn't able of pushing enough frames then might as well just go back to interlaced rendering....
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Loxus
Member
Yes.
The Mark Cerny Q&A – We Ask About VRR Improvements, PSSR FG, Path Tracing, and the ML Project with AMD
How do you see PSSR evolving after the launch of the console?
Mark Cerny: We're definitely going to continue our work in this space. There are so many ways that we can take that, though, right? We could continue to improve PSSR or start working on some of the other targets that I mentioned, like frame generation, frame extrapolation, ray tracing, denoising, and the like. I think it'll be interesting to see over the next few months what the full reaction from the development community is.
Are there any plans to maybe add a frame generation component to PSSR?
Mark Cerny: Well, at the current moment, our focus is definitely on Super Resolution. I'm just saying that there are a number of other very attractive targets out there.
It'll show up in the future for sure, probably with the PS6 and most likely with a dedicated unit to help with the increased input latency.
100 hours tweaking your render engine maybe is considerable for DLSS or FSR with million of players. But maybe is not for a product with 7-8 million?
Crayon
Member
We've already seen cases of console games trying to use if for 30->60 fps, which sucks. It's a quality issue. The artifacts are more noticeable, and the extra lag issue is exasperated as the frame you loose is twice as long.
It's fine for people who have hi-refresh displays and want some way to use them and not shell out 3x for a gpu that can do it. Ie: 50->100 or 60->120.
Overall, it really should not be a focus the way ai sparse rendering is.
It's fine for people who have hi-refresh displays and want some way to use them and not shell out 3x for a gpu that can do it. Ie: 50->100 or 60->120.
Overall, it really should not be a focus the way ai sparse rendering is.
asdasdasdbb
Member
I think the hope is that they would be able to improve it enough to be passable on a console. Well, enough to satisfy the people with OLED TVs who complain about how 30 fps games look on it but wouldn't really notice the 30 fps response time.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
People with good monitors
I only ever used it for Cyberpunk path traced and it was very good tbh
Crayon
Member
I heard there might be a way to do it without waiting for the whole next frame to finish. If it's possible at all, I'm sure someone will figure it out. Probably nvidia.
30fps is too much low for Frame gen. Frame gen is for 60fps to 120fps or higher
If they could do that, then you don't need even render frames anymore
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You know right sony it's a name company with many persons and not a single entity? Just sayin'. But you proved my point, thank you.
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Lucie Goosey
Member
Yeah I didn't want to discount the reality of devs spending real energy and effort making their games compatible.
On the flip side, we're at a point now where developers and companies should be asking themselves from the beginning of development how they can best incorporate these technologies as seamlessly as possible into their engines/games.
If you're going to spend hours/days/weeks optimizing anyway for performance, then it's probably best not to leave huge amounts of performance off the table unless you've got a really good reason. That's my middle-management take.