[Rumor] [MLiD] PSSR 2 Reportedly Doesn’t Have Frame Generation in the Plans: "developers hate it, hate it, hate it."
- Thread starter LectureMaster
- Start date
- Rumor
I don't think is wrong, he is talking about developers, and those developers don't want more work for consoles. I'm betting even if PSSR 2.0 is great, most games are going to be released with FSR3 or TSR because they already have that implementation from PS5 base. In PS6 sure they all will use
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CentralScrutinizer
Member
I do on MHWilds because its practically mandatory with my 4070 Super.
dgrdsv
Member
I think you should direct that to Sony since this is what they've said, not me.Never change dude never change. I guess for you it's fundamental remind that Sony and Cerny are always the last in gaming tech because seems you never miss the chance to make similar subtle insinuating in whatever tech discussion they are involved somehow. Though, it's a rumour by an anonymous source who the hell know how much reliable is such comment but sure arrogant incompetent Sony as always.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Eh.
I use Nvidia's Smooth Motion in literally every game.
I don't notice the big difference other than the games are running smooth.
Locked games gaining double the frames.
Playing emulated games that's locked 30 or 60 fps getting the double amount of fps is crazy.
Makes a huge difference. And with smooth motion I can't tell the input lag.
And I'm a guy who always have vsync off because of input delay.
I use Nvidia's Smooth Motion in literally every game.
I don't notice the big difference other than the games are running smooth.
Locked games gaining double the frames.
Playing emulated games that's locked 30 or 60 fps getting the double amount of fps is crazy.
Makes a huge difference. And with smooth motion I can't tell the input lag.
And I'm a guy who always have vsync off because of input delay.
Senua
Member
Lots of people. It's great with higher framerates. Say going from 90 to 120 or higher
A custom AI model for frame gen surely will get more quality and be faster than current FSR frame gen.
DonkeyPunchJr
World’s Biggest Weeb
I almost always turn frame gen off, it's not worth the artifacts IMO. I hate it how you'll see ghosting of the UI elements on the generated frames because DLSS doesn't understand those elements should remain static. Once I notice it it becomes impossible to un-notice it.
Felessan
Member
As I understand PSSR2 is next year version for Pro, and Pro doesn't really have power to do extra on ML front for FG per Cerny vision on suitable overall ML performance costs.
PS6 version is at least 2 years away and will be probably PSSR3+ with some feature deemable for it's power
PS6 version is at least 2 years away and will be probably PSSR3+ with some feature deemable for it's power
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I have major doubts that developers hate it, considering some are using FSR2 to upscale from 720p to get a 60FPS mode. I'm sure a lot would be happy to just click on framegen and call it a day, lag be damned.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Corporal.Hicks
Gold Member
I use DLSS FG in almost every game because it has no noticeable downsides, while it considerably improves my experience. I see a huge improvement in motion clarity, and the games feel smoother. DLSS FGx2 makes huge difference especially in very demanding UE5 games.
Native 4K TAA 87fps vs 172fps with DLSSQ + FGx2
People who complain about FG lag tend to exaggerate, or perhaps they use a much inferior AMD FSR FG/LSFG. Even if people use DLSS FG it's still possible they didnt set driver settings correctly (ultra low latency has to be turned on, and you need to turn off ingame Vsync and forcr Vsync in the driver settings). You also need to change the RTSS limiter from the default 'Async' mode to 'Reflex' to achieve the lowest possible lag. Most RTX 40/50 users don't even know that.
I set everything up correctly and measured a difference of just 2 ms in the best-case scenario (cyberpunk), and up to 10 ms in the worst (alan wake 2, Indiana Jones).
70fps, 31.3ms lag (the LDAT measurement is shown in the top right-hand corner) without FG
124fps, 33.8ms lag with DLSS FGx2
There's only a 2ms difference. That's literally placebo territory. Dude, 33.8ms lag still feels perfectly responsive. For comparison, PS5 games such as God of War (2018) have lag of 112ms, yet people here on NeoGAF aren't complaining because the game was still playable with a gamepad.
Games with FG are incredibly responsive on my PC and because I get almost twice the frame rate, my eyes see a much smoother picture and can track movement much more easily, which makes it easier to aim. Base framerare (without FG) in cybetpunk at 70fps isnt more responsive and more playable to me. DLSS FG at 124fps feels more responsive to me even though lag increased a little bit (2ms). That generated 124 fps is only less responsive compared to a true 124 fps native framerate.... and not a lot
. If I get between 80-120fps generated frames, sure I can feel some small difference compared to real 80-120fps, but once generated framerate is in 160-220fps territory I cant even tell a difference between FG and native framerate.I even tried testing DLSS FGx2 at a base of 30 fps, so I played at generated 60 fps. My experience was definitely closer to 60 fps than 30 fps. The improvement in motion smoothness and sharpness was significant, and I could aim much more easily too. At 30 fps, especially on an OLED screen, you can clearly see when the frames jump during slow camera panning. DLSS FGx2 fixes that. Of course, at such a low framerate, DLSS FGx2 motion artefacts become more apparent. However, that's much less noticeable than the 30fps judder, which is why so many people turn on motion interpolation on their TVs.
If I still played on consoles, I would definitely want the PS6 to support frame generation (FG), assuming the PS6's FG can offer the same experience as DLSS FG.
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Lucie Goosey
Member
Aren't these upscaling solutions mostly just tick off a checkbox? At least that's been the case for developers with DLSS.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Pretty much. Once again, MLiD with ZERO sources. Just "trust me bro." That will change like the wind in another month, he's notorious for that.
Lucie Goosey
Member
"Developers hate this one checkbox.." would seem crazy lmao. Especially if the option is then passed on to players.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
When they're already doing it on the PC front and have been for years. Most competent .ini to GUI coders have the checkbox in the settings for the gamer as well.
Some games I use it and it works well, others, I turn it off.
The "lazy devs" are the ones that give you zero option to disable/enable on the console version when they have the damned setting there in the PC version.
Zacfoldor
Gold Member
Framegen is not needed or wanted by me in the vast majority of console games. Especially those with demanding graphics.
Having it as an option to developers isn't necessarily good. A bad option removed is a good thing.
The amount of PS6 games that this would fully benefit would be very few and I don't trust devs to use it correctly in a console environment when I don't micromanage those settings.
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The problem is not the implementation. It's the support. If they implement Fake frames, and in some area is buggy, many artifacts, etc, they have to make time to fix. Also DLSS is not a checkbox, first require everything in your game have motion vectors, also can have artifacts, glitches and shimmering, so developer need tweaks how they render some things (that is the reason I don't believe PSSR 2 will fix everything if developers don't do those tweaks as they do for DLSS or FSR)
Lucie Goosey
Member
I haven't heard a lot of reports lately of issues from developers needing to spend a considerable amount of time fixing artifacts, glitches, and shimmering on PC titles using DLSS4 and FSR4, but maybe I'm out of the loop.
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CuteFaceJay
Member
Yeah I still find it very odd at the sheer amount of clowns pushing for it on the Steam Deck to the point of it feeling like propaganda for the dog shit idea of framegen.
I mean for fuck sakes if the hardware isn't able of pushing enough frames then might as well just go back to interlaced rendering....
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Loxus
Member
Yes.
The Mark Cerny Q&A – We Ask About VRR Improvements, PSSR FG, Path Tracing, and the ML Project with AMD
How do you see PSSR evolving after the launch of the console?
Mark Cerny: We're definitely going to continue our work in this space. There are so many ways that we can take that, though, right? We could continue to improve PSSR or start working on some of the other targets that I mentioned, like frame generation, frame extrapolation, ray tracing, denoising, and the like. I think it'll be interesting to see over the next few months what the full reaction from the development community is.
Are there any plans to maybe add a frame generation component to PSSR?
Mark Cerny: Well, at the current moment, our focus is definitely on Super Resolution. I'm just saying that there are a number of other very attractive targets out there.
It'll show up in the future for sure, probably with the PS6 and most likely with a dedicated unit to help with the increased input latency.
100 hours tweaking your render engine maybe is considerable for DLSS or FSR with million of players. But maybe is not for a product with 7-8 million?
Crayon
Member
We've already seen cases of console games trying to use if for 30->60 fps, which sucks. It's a quality issue. The artifacts are more noticeable, and the extra lag issue is exasperated as the frame you loose is twice as long.
It's fine for people who have hi-refresh displays and want some way to use them and not shell out 3x for a gpu that can do it. Ie: 50->100 or 60->120.
Overall, it really should not be a focus the way ai sparse rendering is.
It's fine for people who have hi-refresh displays and want some way to use them and not shell out 3x for a gpu that can do it. Ie: 50->100 or 60->120.
Overall, it really should not be a focus the way ai sparse rendering is.
asdasdasdbb
Member
I think the hope is that they would be able to improve it enough to be passable on a console. Well, enough to satisfy the people with OLED TVs who complain about how 30 fps games look on it but wouldn't really notice the 30 fps response time.
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
People with good monitors
I only ever used it for Cyberpunk path traced and it was very good tbh
Crayon
Member
I heard there might be a way to do it without waiting for the whole next frame to finish. If it's possible at all, I'm sure someone will figure it out. Probably nvidia.
30fps is too much low for Frame gen. Frame gen is for 60fps to 120fps or higher
If they could do that, then you don't need even render frames anymore
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Sony again? Anonymous source is sony now? You know right sony it's a name company with many persons and not a single entity? Just sayin'. But you proved my point again about to be full of preconceptions when sony is named somehow, so thank you.
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Lucie Goosey
Member
Yeah I didn't want to discount the reality of devs spending real energy and effort making their games compatible.
On the flip side, we're at a point now where developers and companies should be asking themselves from the beginning of development how they can best incorporate these technologies as seamlessly as possible into their engines/games.
If you're going to spend hours/days/weeks optimizing anyway for performance, then it's probably best not to leave huge amounts of performance off the table unless you've got a really good reason. That's my middle-management take.
Boss Mog
Member
I thought it was obvious, but I'm talking about Reflex 2.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Me, all the time if I feel I should and the game warrants it.
For example. Good looking single player games. Get that FPS to more or less locked 60. Turn it on and enjoy an evening smoother experience.
daninthemix
Member
I would add even Nvidia's Smooth Motion can be stunning. I just used it on the Crash Bandicoot N Sane Trilogy - which is locked at 60fps. The 'free' 240fps you get is much more pleasing on the eye than "native" 60fps, and in this case has no artifacts.
Framegen frames are going through the exact trajectory as upscaling / DLSS frames - first people rejected them because either 1) they don't like change 2) the technology had genuine issues 3) they don't have access to the technology (e.g. they are on console). Before long, the issues got ironed out and now we're at a place where the technology is superior to "native" (whatever that means in 2025), often by a significant margin. But the rejectors in camps 2 and 3 still exist.
Framegen frames are going through the exact trajectory as upscaling / DLSS frames - first people rejected them because either 1) they don't like change 2) the technology had genuine issues 3) they don't have access to the technology (e.g. they are on console). Before long, the issues got ironed out and now we're at a place where the technology is superior to "native" (whatever that means in 2025), often by a significant margin. But the rejectors in camps 2 and 3 still exist.
Zathalus
Member
Why would developers hate it? You obviously don't want to use it to hit 60fps, but it works really well in selling the illusion of 120fps. Obviously you don't get the performance of real 120fps, but motion smoothness and clarity takes a big leap forward.
This feels like standard MLiD shitting on Nvidia tech again. Despite AMD having it again now. Please refer to how much he scoffed at RT and AI tech over the years but now is all over it due to AMD finally starting to catch up.
This feels like standard MLiD shitting on Nvidia tech again. Despite AMD having it again now. Please refer to how much he scoffed at RT and AI tech over the years but now is all over it due to AMD finally starting to catch up.
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do the developers know what adds input like as if they do then they don't give a shit
Buggy Loop
Gold Member
Wha the hell? Naw I don't believe you, that's your cope out attempt
There's barely any games supporting reflex 2 and it's purely esport ~0 latency
I see Valorant and The Finals officially supported, that's it
Valorant doesn't support FG and the finals does but again, why would you enable reflex 2 for near 0 latency and then enable FG in an esport? I can't even find someone trying it out, is it even possible?
In the end your example can potentially fit 1 single game, one.
When peoples mention reflex, it's expected they talk about the reflex tech that's been implemented in hundreds of games, it's the only reflex that would be enabled with frame gen for non esport games to begin with. So no, I really doubt you posted originally for 1 game case, and otherwise no it's not obvious for anyone when you mention reflex + frame gen that you talked about such a niche example with reflex 2
Boss Mog
Member
Dude the whole 50 series pitch was about multi-frame gen and Reflex 2. It's not my fault that Reflex 2 hasn't been implemented into any game yet. I'm going off of nVidia's presentation to sell 50 series cards. It billed itself as a mainstream feature.Wha the hell? Naw I don't believe you, that's your cope out attempt
There's barely any games supporting reflex 2 and it's purely esport ~0 latency
I see Valorant and The Finals officially supported, that's it
Valorant doesn't support FG and the finals does but again, why would you enable reflex 2 for near 0 latency and then enable FG in an esport? I can't even find someone trying it out, is it even possible?
In the end your example can potentially fit 1 single game, one.
When peoples mention reflex, it's expected they talk about the reflex tech that's been implemented in hundreds of games, it's the only reflex that would be enabled with frame gen for non esport games to begin with. So no, I really doubt you posted originally for 1 game case, and otherwise no it's not obvious for anyone when you mention reflex + frame gen that you talked about such a niche example with reflex 2
Reflex 1 doesn't even work using AI, so why would I say it creates artifacts? AI is what generates artifacts. I don't understand how anybody can interpret my statement the way you have.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
ETA Prime has been one of the worst when it comes to suggesting frame gen being enabled. I love the guy, but he is very much overrelies on it.
I consider a base frame rate of 70 or 80 is when framegen becomes viable.
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Buggy Loop
Gold Member
Multiple peoples in the thread interpreted the same
So you're off bullshitting that it's obvious you're talking about reflex 2 and that it's nvidia's fault you interpreted it as a mainstream feature… which they never did, go and look back at the announcements of reflex 2 and you maybe have a single case where FG + Reflex 2 is possible…
Sure buddy.
YeulEmeralda
Linux User
For me the use case is switching on path tracing.
Which the PS5 isn't going to have anyway.
RCX
Member
Good. It'd become the mother of all crutches if it was allowed on consoles.
Imagine a later PS6 gen game running on the handheld and trying to boost an unstable 30fps up to 60. The lag would be unbearable but you can guarantee there's some devs that would do it. Better not even give them the opportunity.
Imagine a later PS6 gen game running on the handheld and trying to boost an unstable 30fps up to 60. The lag would be unbearable but you can guarantee there's some devs that would do it. Better not even give them the opportunity.
I hoped the leaked FSR4 on all AMD gpus pushed sony to anticipate their roadmap for PSSR 2 on ps5 pro but 2025 seems extremely unlikely when 2026 is almost already here.
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