Support NeoGAF

[slidewinder]

I feel like I'm saying this all the time these days, but this hardcore/casual labelling is one of the worst things to grace this industry over the last decade. It's the new kiddy, but even less precise and even more elitist.

What kind of harm, specifically, does it do or has it done? What's something slightly or somewhat worse, but still bad, to have "graced" the industry over the last decade?

Because I feel like I'm reading variations on your post a lot these days, but I don't really get them.

 

[Bidermaier]

I dont like to label games as hardcore and casual but it is obvious that the kind of game that best suit the iPad are very different than the ones that suit a gaming PC. This console seems to suit both and in a clever way.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

If it's real, I'd say more like the Japanese one.
Though, does that mean the Reset/Power buttons are just giant slide pads?
Also, would we load discs from the top of the unit?

I could dig the sliding buttons. A retro looking console would be a nice change from the apple-esque design of the Wii.

 

[Graphics Horse]

By hardcore I meant games that you really want to be enjoyed at HD.

Woww, there's one I haven't heard before.

My sister enjoyed Super Mario Bros and Tetris but really doesn't give a fuck about games in general. It can be those games or Farmville or whatever keeps her from getting bored until she can go and do the stuff she really cares about.

A dedicated gamer invests time, mind and develops skills and such.

Which just goes to show applying the same labels to both games and people leads to all sorts of confusion.

 

[Chittagong]

Oh god I hope this means Lance Barr designed it

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grooveraider/3449343469/

 

[_Alkaline_]

What kind of harm, specifically, does it do or has it done? What's something slightly or somewhat worse, but still bad, to have "graced" the industry over the last decade?

Because I feel like I'm reading variations on your post a lot these days, but I don't really get them.

It essentially boils down to gamers classifying games into "good" (hardcore) and "bad" (casual) without any real understanding of what those terms mean. It oft dilutes discussion and further contributes to the insecure image that our hobby possesses.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Is there anything that hasn't been discussed in this thread? It's like an all-encompassing thread of general video game knowledge. All of GAF can be summed up by it.

 

[Jocchan]

Which just goes to show applying the same labels to both games and people leads to all sorts of confusion.

Exactly. While it's easier to label enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts playing games casually, using the same terms for games is completely different and a simple dualism doesn't cut it.
Are Madden, CoD, GTA and Mario hardcore or casual? Truth is: all of them appeal to both audiences.

 

[sphinx]

Exactly. While it's easier to label enthusiasts and non-enthusiasts playing games casually, using the same terms for games is completely different and a simple dualism doesn't cut it.
Are Madden, CoD, GTA and Mario hardcore or casual? Truth is: all of them appeal to both audiences.

I always thought the term "hardcore" was wrong, which is why I like the term "dedicated gamer" better and better depicts what it is all about.

There are LOADS of very hardcore farmville gamers that play the game because they have a group of friends that invite them and is some kind of time waster but if facebook wasn't there, they wouldn't actively seek any kind of particular gaming experience, therefore they are "not dedicated" .. my line of thought anyway.

 

[First Children]

I don't think the console will be too similar to Snes, it's going to be a 2012 device you know! disk based, and probably can be put vertical. Maybe it will slightly remember that thing in shape and color.

 

[Caramello]

It essentially boils down to gamers classifying games into "good" (hardcore) and "bad" (casual) without any real understanding of what those terms mean. It oft dilutes discussion and further contributes to the insecure image that our hobby possesses.

To me, that's not true.. I like Angry Birds and Cut the Rope, they're great games and I find them easy to pick up and play and am instantly entertained. To me, they're casual games.

A hardcore game to me is Call of Duty or The Legend of Zelda, you have to put in more time to get satisfaction out of those games.

It's OK to dislike a label that you don't agree with but it's not hard to understand what people mean when they say 'casual' or 'hardcore.' Please stop attacking people who are using the terms casual and hardcore, respect the ideas they are trying to present, and this thread would be a much nicer place.

Just use some common sense..

 

[AceBandage]

Is there anything that hasn't been discussed in this thread? It's like an all-encompassing thread of general video game knowledge. All of GAF can be summed up by it.

We haven't discussed the meaning of life yet, but that isn't exactly hard to answer.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

We haven't discussed the meaning of life yet, but that isn't exactly hard to answer.

I think that was covered somewhere in the 8000-9000 range.

 

[robor]

I feel like I'm saying this all the time these days, but this hardcore/casual labelling is one of the worst things to grace this industry over the last decade. It's the new kiddy, but even less precise and even more elitist.

What's a better way of looking at it? Downmarket/Upmarket?

 

[[Nintex]]

What's a better way of looking at it? Downmarket/Upmarket?

Upstream/downstream ?

 

[robor]

Could you define the difference?

 

[dwu8991]

Could you define the difference?

Hardcore is made from traditional video game genres.

 

[swerve]

Hardcore is made from traditional video game genres.

Like puzzle games, farming games, simulation games and platform games?

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

I don't see anything wrong with using hardcore/casual as general terms in a videogame related conversation, as long as you aren't being all elitist about it. I mean, people on GAF are hardcore. My wife's sister, who has probably played 1 game in the past year (Just Dance 2) is a casual gamer. Can we at least agree on this? What's the big deal?

I think the problems generally stem from labeling GAMES as hardcore/casual.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Like puzzle games, farming games, simulation games and platform games?

Don't forget Pong!

Is it me or has this gone slightly off topic.

 

[swerve]

Is it me or has this gone slightly off topic.

Way too much. Danger of getting locked. Need some Cafe discussion back.

I'm pretty certain that zelda will be available for both systems, this holiday, now.

 

[megashock5]

Here's my take on the so-called 'hardcore' vs 'casual' argument.

I'd say there are definitely people who are more into games than others. For instance, my parents own a Wii and a DS plus quite a few games, but they don't play as much as I do and they definitely don't go in search of news and read about the industry the way I do.

I have five systems currently hooked up in my house, plus DS, PSP and an iPod touch. I read GAF daily as well as books on the history of the industry.

However, I still don't have an HD system even though I have two HDTVs, and I don't play FPS games or GTA type games at all. I have no interest in Call of Duty, but I love Kirby's Epic Yarn. I'm *seriously* into games, I just don't play many of them that people would usually assign to a 'core' gamer.

So, I think there are different categories of gamers, but not necessarily games.

If someone plays nothing but an occasional game of COD, that would be pretty casual. If someone plays Peggle day and night and frequents Peggle message boards, that's pretty hardcore.

Back to your regularly scheduled speculation.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Way too much. Danger of getting locked. Need some Cafe discussion back.

I'm pretty certain that zelda will be available for both systems, this holiday, now.

I think you're right. So you think Stream in 2011? I would totally be up for that, although NGP + Stream + games could be a combo that ends me.

 

[JaseMath]

Here's my take on the so-called 'hardcore' vs 'casual' argument.

I'd say there are definitely people who are more into games than others. For instance, my parents own a Wii and a DS plus quite a few games, but they don't play as much as I do and they definitely don't go in search of news and read about the industry the way I do.

I have five systems currently hooked up in my house, plus DS, PSP and an iPod touch. I read GAF daily as well as books on the history of the industry.

However, I still don't have an HD system even though I have two HDTVs, and I don't play FPS games or GTA type games at all. I have no interest in Call of Duty, but I love Kirby's Epic Yarn. I'm *seriously* into games, I just don't play many of them that people would usually assign to a 'core' gamer.

So, I think there are different categories of gamers, but not necessarily games.

If someone plays nothing but an occasional game of COD, that would be pretty casual. If someone plays Peggle day and night and frequents Peggle message boards, that's pretty hardcore.

Back to your regularly scheduled speculation.

I agree with this, although there are certain games that are tailored toward a specific group of gamers.

 

[[Nintex]]

Could you define the difference?

Upstream goes up the rivers blessing our lands with a glorious high definition gaming future.

Downstream flushes down the vast blue ocean that's now somewhat green because of chemical waste with floating turds and dead birds in between while Ubisoft keeps pissing in it without remorse.

 

[megashock5]

I agree with this, although there are certain games that are tailored toward a specific group of gamers.

True. My main point is that you play what you like - and it's more about your interest or enthusiasm in games than what you play.

 

[robor]

Hardcore is made from traditional video game genres.

No I was talking about the difference between Upstream/Downstream and Upmarket/Downmarket.

I use the latter to define barriers of entry to a game. Hardcare/Casual refers to an archaic dichotomy that certain content defines the player's interest and taste, I find this severely inaccurate.

With Upmarket (high barrier entry) and Downmarket (low barrier entry) we can make a more diversified distinction between each player. For example:

Hardcore can be:
- Liken to only Upmarket
- Liken to only Downmarket
- Liken to both Upmarket and Downmarket.

and visa versa with Casual.

Because really, these newer terms define the experience rather than the content itself. It's about the level of ENTRY to that content and how easier it is to enjoy the experience. It could be about guns and babes, or it could be about unicorns and rainbows, it doesn't matter.

Making this dichotomy with barrier levels to entry means we can subdivide the types or players from those two reference points.

 

[Goldmund]

Hardcore is made from traditional video game genres.

I think you left out "freshly squeezed" in that quality assurance slogan.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

So much for getting back on topic.

 

[Lonewolf_92]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to buy it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

 

[robor]

Oh god I hope this means Lance Barr designed it

http://www.flickr.com/photos/grooveraider/3449343469/

That arcade stick controller looks BAD ASS.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to by it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

I would imagine so, especially considering all of the software that was bundled in with the 3DS. Whatever it is it will probably take advantage of the new features of the Stream. Trying to predict what it would be seems almost impossible though, who would have predicted Wii Sports, Face Raiders, or AR Games without knowing much of anything about the Wii or 3DS?

 

[ASIS]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to by it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

I don't think including a hardcore game will make any difference in sales. So if they want to include a Mini Game collection with the system then both casual and hardcore gamers will buy the system (casuals for software, hardcore for the hardware).

At least that's what I think :/

 

[Jocchan]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to by it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

I'd say it's pretty much a given. The 3DS has plenty of software meant to showcase its features.

EDIT: I mean, the presence of a pack-in.

 

[plex]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to buy it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

I'm pretty sure they'll include some mini games and apps, just like with the 3DS.

Btw. the first post really needs an update now!

 

[Graphics Horse]

Yeah it'll have something packed in I'm sure, I'd think it would be more likely to be on the system than on a disc though.

 

[boyshine]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to buy it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

The biggest obstacle to success here is price vs. content. If the console will cost more than the HD competition, yet still get the same games, how will Nintendo be able to sell it to the typical PS3/360-gamer who doesn't care enough about Mario or Zelda to buy a new system for them? You'll still be chanting the Nintendo for Nintendo games argument. There must be AAA exclusive games for the 18+ FPS/action crowd. And it must be a consistent strategy to last the entire console lifespan. This console might be a tech beast, but it might also become the biggest failure for Nintendo since the Virtual Boy, unless they have signed deals from the biggest publishers for the biggest games ready this very moment.

 

[Vinci]

How about we define 'casual' and 'hardcore' the following way, for balance?

CASUALS play games less because they have more important priorities in life than amassing some imaginary binary by which to measure their existence against others'.

HARDCORE think - subsconsciously, at least - that at some point this imaginary number will garner them fame and fortune, though they're unclear of the details how.

 

[TunaLover]

I have a question
If stream is indeed bc with wii, it could be a benefit in image quality using a HDMI cable, even if nintendo decide no include an upscalling feature?

 

[Indyana]

On the topic of Project Cafe, I asked this earlier but got no replies. Do you think Nintendo will be looking at adding a pack in with the new system, and if so, what? I mean, the Wii wouldn't have been half as successful if it didn't have Wii Sports driving grandmas to buy it, so I'm sure Big N will want to replicate that, but if they're aiming for the non-casual gamer this time a mini-game pack might not be the best fit.

I thought Wii Relax could have been that game, but now I'm clueless because there is no rumor about bio-feedback.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

I thought Wii Relax could have been that game, but now I'm clueless because there is no rumor about bio-feedback.

I'm thinking (hoping) that's the surprise.

 

[Graphics Horse]

I have a question
If stream is indeed bc with wii, it could be a benefit in image quality using a HDMI cable, even if nintendo decide no include an upscalling feature?

Yes, and even then the Wii picture could possibly be scaled nicely on the output instead of letting your TV do a bad job of it.

 

[Shikamaru Ninja]

I thought Wii Relax could have been that game, but now I'm clueless because there is no rumor about bio-feedback.

"Stream Relax" could be sold with the needed accessories in the box just like Wii Fit was. There is a chance Nintendo may still add the bio sensor / vitality sensor somehow on the system. But it is not absolutely necessary for the game to be release next-gen.

 

[boyshine]

Hopefully Wii Sports Pro will be a pack-in, it would continue the Wii heritage while catering to the more demanding gamers who want a more simulation-like approach. Or they could sell it as a separate product including the Wii Pro controllers, securing a high attach rate for motion controls in addition to the bundled traditional controller.

 

[Graphics Horse]

Having an alternate controller bundle available at launch seems like a crazy thing to do, but the new controller still might involve two 'halves' out of the box.
I think they'll have a Wii Play style bundle, but not a WSR one.

 

[From The Dust]

At $300-$400, Nintendo is going have to put a good bit in there to get consumers to bite.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

The SNES-design comment is strange. Does that mean the japanese Super Famicom and european SNES.. or the design disaster that was the american SNES?

There are two distinct sets of rumors that were combined into one in that last thread. The IGN article and the ones that were pictures of someone's monitor. Bad on Colbert for combining the two in the OP.

 

[The_Darkest_Red]

Hopefully Wii Sports Pro will be a pack-in, it would continue the Wii heritage while catering to the more demanding gamers who want a more simulation-like approach. Or they could sell it as a separate product including the Wii Pro controllers, securing a high attach rate for motion controls in addition to the bundled traditional controller.

Nintendo developing a simulation sports game? I highly doubt that. I would rather them go for something a little more original and outside of the sports world.

 

[Graphics Horse]

At $300-$400, Nintendo is going have to put a good bit in there to get consumers to bite.

$400 yes, $300 is Xbox+Kinect price, no?

 

[RPGCrazied]

Is it Monday yet?