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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine

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Edgelord79

Gold Member
I don't think putin will win this, its a battle of attrition and the ukrainians are dug in. This guys is going to get desperate and commit an absolutely insane attrocity to get his way. Theres a certain point where you can't let a mad dictator wipe out masses of people and destroy the freedoms of a sovereign nation and do nothing about it. I feel like were on an inevitable path of escalation off a cliff with no handbrake, and the only way to take this thing off the tracks is for someone to take one for the team and put a bullet in the back of the conductors noggin.
There is no win now in any situation for him. It has taken too long and has devolved into a mess. Putin may take some cities, even Lyviv, but he most likely won’t hold it. Not to mention he has no fallbacks. His army is underperforming, his economy is in shambles, China hasn’t exactly come out and endorsed the invasion, there’s severe unrest at home, and all political credibility outside Russia has disappeared.

Yes his “friend” China will buy more oil in Yen and then, Russia will turn around a buy goods they can’t get anywhere else from China with that Yen. China will then buy more land along Russia’s eastern border with the profits. China is no “friend” and more of an opportunist.
I'm so conflicted. I want NATO to go in and destroy the Russian army and help the people of Ukraine, otherwise this is going to go on for a long time and more and more of this tragic events are going to happen. This is why Zelensky has been begging for a no fly zone.

On the other hand, that means war with the CSTO and possibly nuclear conflict.
Food for thought.

That argument is consistently thrown around. It’s a common straw man. Not saying that it’s not a valid fear, but the reality is that Putin will just keep pushing until we have no choice. By then who knows how much more devastation he will have wrought.

It’s difficult to look Ukrainians in the eye knowing we’ve sacrificed them through paralysis when we are headed to the inevitable anyhow.
 
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MrMephistoX

Member
The problem is if you believe Putin is a mad man, and that other mad men around the globe are seeking nukes; at some point a large pre-emptive nuclear strike doesn't seem like the worst idea compared to cowtowing to these monsters. But wtf do I know?

I am no fan of Biden at all. Not one single bit. But I will admit that I am glad he is in charge right now. Slow and steady may just get us through this.
MAD still rings true though no one is crazy enough to be the first to launch a ICBM strike and wipe out humanity but small load nukes are in Russia’s war planning tactics and could be used as a form of extortion. Even Kim Jung Un realizes just being able to threaten with nukes has a lot of power even though he realistically has no intent to use them against the west but the fear that he might use them is always there. Seoul has way more to worry about there or in the case of tactical nukes a smaller seaside town that could be hit with a small payload to prove a point.
 
That’s the thing though a tactical nuke on a specific target isn’t going to produce as much fallout and it’s arguably less deadly immediately than a full scale WWII era style firebombing. Like obviously the Hiroshima long term effects were horrible but firebombing of Tokyo killed way more people agregately. He’s definitely not using ICBMs against NATO but tactically nuking one city in the middle of nowhere would scare the shit out of people and rightly so….maybe I’ve watched too many episodes of 24 but the thought of a nuke going off in like San Bernardino an hour or so from LA was equally terrifying.


If I may, it's a little different than that. The targeting of a city with any sized nuclear weapon would provoke a strategic escalatory response.

I mean, start over. It's like this. A conventional kinetic conflict that goes nuclear is generally assumed to include the tactical battlefield use of nuclear weapons. This was part of NATO defensive plans in the coldwar to prevent overwhelming Soviet armored superiority from crossing the Fulda Gap and reaching the Rhine and further west. On the Soviet side, under one prominent 1979 now known Soviet plan, they never used nuclear weapons on the UK or France, just conventional strikes at RAF bases in the UK -- likely out of fear of a nuclear response. They did include smaller tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield and, if escalated, move to cities such as Vienna, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Munich and some industrialized northern Italian cities like Padua and Milan.

In total, they expected to use around 7megatons in the operation. This is nothing compared to a strategic release using ICBM/SLBMs that would see hundreds of thousand of megatons used.

Furthermore, there are extablished nuclear strategy paradigms and doctrines that countries follow. The first is called counter-force and is generally how the US and Russia would play out the opening rounds of a nuclear exchange. Using nuclear weapons on the battlefield against forces and then ratcheting up to targeting the other parties ability to use their nuclear force. So, this is why the Russians would turn the Dakota's into glass, because that's where our minuteman silos are. The US developed the B-2 bomber for this reason to survive and literally fly around contested Soviet airspace and search out mobile ICBM sites and destroy them (as well as hardened command and control bunkers, but an ICBM can do that just as easily). So, in the opening rounds the target is the other forces ability to wage war and strategic sites like command and control (ie. SAC headquarters, DC, Livermore, Sandia, Los Alamos, there are 17 labs I think). Again, the point isn't to win, but to survive and turn-off the conflict.

EDIT2: The Russian perspective is that NATO in Ukraine and AEGIS Ashore in Poland and Romania is an extistential threat as these system, could, theoretically, be used to house nuclear-tipped Tomahawks that could reach Russian targets quickly and upset the balance. This would be like putting Russian missiles in Canada. Granted, we offered to let them inspect the sites and opened it up for them, but they are paranoid fucks.

The opposite strategy, which the French employ, is called a counter-value strategy whereby you knowing target civilian populations and make it known that you're doing this, driving up the cost of conflict so it never occurs.

Now, using a tactical nuclear weapon on San Bernadino is kinda silly. It accomplishes nothing but ensures a strategic nuclear response because you already ratcheted up to the counter-value part, the second phase. Any nuclear strike against NATO would entail an escalation, which is why the Soviets didn't even plan to do it during their wargames in which they plotted to drive to the Rhine in 7 days. To do it now is odd.

EDIT: The only strike on NATO I could foresee is if the US went through with that Polish offer to transfer their MIG-29s via Rammstein AB. I could see the Russians considering this an escalation on the west's part and that hitting Rammstein with stand-off weapons was a defensive maneuver to protect their forces in Ukraine. This would be highly escalatory and where things would spiral from.

Modern nuclear weapons aren't the radioactive things from WW2, which is why they're getting renewed interest in the West as deep penetrating bunker-busting munitions as you'd use in North Korea or Iran. But what would you do with one in Ukraine? There's no big maneuver warfare or open-field battles. There is no equivalent of the Fulda Gap. There is close quarter urban battles. The most effective way is to shell the fuck out of the city, starve it and then take it. Which is exactly what the Russians are doing.

I know this from a previous life in which I studied Cold War strategy in Bologna at SAIS for a bit, but take it or leave it.
 
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akimbo009

Gold Member
If I may, it's a little different than that. The targeting of a city with any sized nuclear weapon would provoke a strategic escalatory response.

I mean, start over. It's like this. A conventional kinetic conflict that goes nuclear is generally assumed to include the tactical battlefield use of nuclear weapons. This was part of NATO defensive plans in the coldwar to prevent overwhelming Soviet armored superiority from crossing the Fulda Gap and reaching the Rhine and further west. On the Soviet side, under one prominent 1979 now known Soviet plan, they never used nuclear weapons on the UK or France, just conventional strikes at RAF bases in the UK -- likely out of fear of a nuclear response. They did include smaller tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield and, if escalated, move to cities such as Vienna, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Munich and some industrialized northern Italian cities like Padua and Milan.

In total, they expected to use around 7megatons in the operation. This is nothing compared to a strategic release using ICBM/SLBMs that would see hundreds of thousand of megatons used.

Furthermore, there are extablished nuclear strategy paradigms and doctrines that countries follow. The first is called counter-force and is generally how the US and Russia would play out the opening rounds of a nuclear exchange. Using nuclear weapons on the battlefield against forces and then ratcheting up to targeting the other parties ability to use their nuclear force. So, this is why the Russians would turn the Dakota's into glass, because that's where our minuteman silos are. The US developed the B-2 bomber for this reason to survive and literally fly around contested Soviet airspace and search out mobile ICBM sites and destroy them (as well as hardened command and control bunkers, but an ICBM can do that just as easily). So, in the opening rounds the target is the other forces ability to wage war and strategic sites like command and control (ie. SAC headquarters, DC, Livermore, Sandia, Los Alamos, there are 17 labs I think). Again, the point isn't to win, but to survive and turn-off the conflict.

The opposite strategy, which the French employ, is called a counter-value strategy whereby you knowing target civilian populations and make it known that you're doing this, driving up the cost of conflict so it never occurs.

Now, using a tactical nuclear weapon on San Bernadino is kinda silly. It accomplishes nothing but ensures a strategic nuclear response. Any nuclear strike against NATO would entail an escalation, which is why the Soviets didn't even plan to do it during their wargames in which they plotted to drive to the Rhine in 7 days. To do it now is odd.

Modern nuclear weapons aren't the radioactive things from WW2, which is why they're getting renewed interest in the West as deep penetrating bunker-busting munitions as you'd use in North Korea or Iran. But what would you do with one in Ukraine? There's no big maneuver warfare or open-field battles. There is no equivalent of the Fulda Gap. There is close quarter urban battles. The most effective way is to shell the fuck out of the city, starve it and then take it. Which is exactly what the Russians are doing.

I know this from a previous life in which I studied Cold War strategy in Bologna at SAIS, but take it or leave it.

This is good, thanks for posting your thoughts
 

Agent_Nobody

Gold Member
“Citing Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov, the RIA news agency said Putin had ordered military prosecutors to investigate and punish the officials responsible for disobeying his instructions to exclude conscripts from the operation.”

….he mad.
 

Liljagare

Member
If I may, it's a little different than that. The targeting of a city with any sized nuclear weapon would provoke a strategic escalatory response.

I mean, start over. It's like this. A conventional kinetic conflict that goes nuclear is generally assumed to include the tactical battlefield use of nuclear weapons. This was part of NATO defensive plans in the coldwar to prevent overwhelming Soviet armored superiority from crossing the Fulda Gap and reaching the Rhine and further west. On the Soviet side, under one prominent 1979 now known Soviet plan, they never used nuclear weapons on the UK or France, just conventional strikes at RAF bases in the UK -- likely out of fear of a nuclear response. They did include smaller tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield and, if escalated, move to cities such as Vienna, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Munich and some industrialized northern Italian cities like Padua and Milan.

In total, they expected to use around 7megatons in the operation. This is nothing compared to a strategic release using ICBM/SLBMs that would see hundreds of thousand of megatons used.

Furthermore, there are extablished nuclear strategy paradigms and doctrines that countries follow. The first is called counter-force and is generally how the US and Russia would play out the opening rounds of a nuclear exchange. Using nuclear weapons on the battlefield against forces and then ratcheting up to targeting the other parties ability to use their nuclear force. So, this is why the Russians would turn the Dakota's into glass, because that's where our minuteman silos are. The US developed the B-2 bomber for this reason to survive and literally fly around contested Soviet airspace and search out mobile ICBM sites and destroy them (as well as hardened command and control bunkers, but an ICBM can do that just as easily). So, in the opening rounds the target is the other forces ability to wage war and strategic sites like command and control (ie. SAC headquarters, DC, Livermore, Sandia, Los Alamos, there are 17 labs I think). Again, the point isn't to win, but to survive and turn-off the conflict.

EDIT2: The Russian perspective is that NATO in Ukraine and AEGIS Ashore in Poland and Romania is an extistential threat as these system, could, theoretically, be used to house nuclear-tipped Tomahawks that could reach Russian targets quickly and upset the balance. This would be like putting Russian missiles in Canada. Granted, we offered to let them inspect the sites and opened it up for them, but they are paranoid fucks.

The opposite strategy, which the French employ, is called a counter-value strategy whereby you knowing target civilian populations and make it known that you're doing this, driving up the cost of conflict so it never occurs.

Now, using a tactical nuclear weapon on San Bernadino is kinda silly. It accomplishes nothing but ensures a strategic nuclear response because you already ratcheted up to the counter-value part, the second phase. Any nuclear strike against NATO would entail an escalation, which is why the Soviets didn't even plan to do it during their wargames in which they plotted to drive to the Rhine in 7 days. To do it now is odd.

EDIT: The only strike on NATO I could foresee is if the US went through with that Polish offer to transfer their MIG-29s via Rammstein AB. I could see the Russians considering this an escalation on the west's part and that hitting Rammstein with stand-off weapons was a defensive maneuver to protect their forces in Ukraine. This would be highly escalatory and where things would spiral from.

Modern nuclear weapons aren't the radioactive things from WW2, which is why they're getting renewed interest in the West as deep penetrating bunker-busting munitions as you'd use in North Korea or Iran. But what would you do with one in Ukraine? There's no big maneuver warfare or open-field battles. There is no equivalent of the Fulda Gap. There is close quarter urban battles. The most effective way is to shell the fuck out of the city, starve it and then take it. Which is exactly what the Russians are doing.

I know this from a previous life in which I studied Cold War strategy in Bologna at SAIS for a bit, but take it or leave it.

Unfortunately, all of that failed to take into account of a, pardon me, fucking ass hat that has no regard for life.

Syria, Chechnya, Putin has shown his face several times, he doesn't follow your "regular" ideas of conflict, and that is a huge mistake on the NATO side.

He's going to toss a tactic nuke the moment Ukraine shows any chance of forcing his forces on the defense. This has been talked about alot the last 20 years, by everyone, apart from NATO.

NATO has overestimated its deterent force since the Soviet Union fell. Putin, and China doesn't give a rats ass about Article 5, because they know how to push, to the extreme, without triggering it.

Article 5 is NATO's biggest flaw, and everyone knows it, but apart from NATO, apparently.
 
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dotnotbot

Member
Upcoming days might be nasty. Russia is planning nuclear and/or chemical false flag. They have nothing to lose now.





 
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Unfortunately, all of that failed to take into account of a, pardon me, fucking ass hat that has no regard for life.

Syria, Chechnya, Putin has shown his face several times, he doesn't follow your "regular" ideas of conflict, and that is a huge mistake on the NATO side.

He's going to toss a tactic nuke the moment Ukraine shows any chance of forcing his forces on the defense. This has been talked about alot the last 20 years, by everyone, apart from NATO.

NATO has overestimated its deterent force since the Soviet Union fell. Putin, and China doesn't give a rats ass about Article 5, because they know how to push, to the extreme, without triggering it.

Article 5 is NATO's biggest flaw, and everyone knows it, but apart from NATO, apparently.
This is what I fear. This is a war Putin already lost, there is no winning on his side. He can fake it as much as he wants. But if Ukraine does repel the invasion and decides to go for it, I do believe Putin will say fuck everything, and will nuke not even Ukraine, but even Russia if needed to avoid getting caught.

"The Russian leader is believed to be haunted by the scenes in which the tyrannical Gaddafi was brutalised before being executed by a mob.

And all of it was captured on video, which further disturbed Vlad who reportedly considered it a warning shot to his own regime.

He is said to have "obsessively" watched the video, according to The Atlantic, and seen it as a wake up call."
 

MrMephistoX

Member
Unfortunately, all of that failed to take into account of a, pardon me, fucking ass hat that has no regard for life.

Syria, Chechnya, Putin has shown his face several times, he doesn't follow your "regular" ideas of conflict, and that is a huge mistake on the NATO side.

He's going to toss a tactic nuke the moment Ukraine shows any chance of forcing his forces on the defense. This has been talked about alot the last 20 years, by everyone, apart from NATO.

NATO has overestimated its deterent force since the Soviet Union fell. Putin, and China doesn't give a rats ass about Article 5, because they know how to push, to the extreme, without triggering it.

Article 5 is NATO's biggest flaw, and everyone knows it, but apart from NATO, apparently.
That’s what some CIA and Pentagon analysts on CNN are even saying. Sanctimonious editorialists like Don Lemon aside CCN’s value as a journalistically rigorous 24 hours global news organization is top notch so I tend to trust their ability to book subject matter experts in their field. If I’d heard it on FOX I would have chalked it up to military hawkishness but when policy and military intelligence wonks are even worried that’s when I get worried. Again though we need to think small scale not nuclear Armageddon. Horrible as it may be a tactical strike in a non NATO country probably wouldn’t trigger a full on retaliatory nuclear strike.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Upcoming days might be nasty. Russia is planning nuclear and/or chemical false flag. They have nothing to lose now.






Russia will learn harsh reality is much worse than obliging lies.
 

Dev1lXYZ

Member
I agree with the above poster that a NATO/Russia war is inevitable at this point. The U.S. government has a plan and the way the media is selling this is the tell. Maybe they are trying to come up with a way for Putin to bow out. I don’t think he will. Surely, they must know the same. So, then that leaves the punch the bully in the face option. I think the safer option is to formally warn them that we are coming in with a no fly zone and that it’s time to leave. I would also remind them that our fleet of x37B’s (six officially)could hit every major city in their country with nuclear strikes. They wouldn’t see it coming and they know it. They like fear. We should give them a strong dose just like the old days. Operators are standing by……
 
Moving away from the nuclear talk for a moment, I find this to be the most significant long-term effect of this conflict as it could reimagine the world in a new bipolar one much different than we've seen in the post-WW2 era. The battlelines will be very blurry given the rise in the West of multinational corporations which aren't very keen on nationalism over profits.

 
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RAÏSanÏa

Member
"If Russia were to use tactical nukes, the results would almost certainly be catastrophic, with researchers at Princeton University estimating more than 91 million people in Russia, the US, and NATO-allied countries could be killed within three hours. The researchers, from Princeton's Science and Global Security lab, created a simulation that shows one tactical "nuclear warning shot" from Russia could quickly devolve into full-blown nuclear war."

Disappointingly fractious.
The estimate seems low.

Considering implications of the cognitive status below:
Moving away from the nuclear talk for a moment, I find this to be the most significant long-term effect of this conflict as it could reimagine the world in a new bipolar one much different than we've seen in the post-WW2 era.


Yet, that is state media which may only reflect an influential controlling small caste.
 

akimbo009

Gold Member
F22s aren't built anymore... And aren't exportable.

Seems the US was caught flat footed here - or (put tinfoil on) got back channelled that this was going to cause a serious escalation with Russia and walked it back.

Not convinced it's entirely necessary right now though... Definitely would put a nail in Putin's ear machine but things seemed stalled at best with Russian forces - and keeping their forces idle while using up fuel, food, and resources while getting smacked around ain't helping them at all.

Quoting myself... maybe my tinfoil hat wasn't totally wrong...

 

MrMephistoX

Member
"If Russia were to use tactical nukes, the results would almost certainly be catastrophic, with researchers at Princeton University estimating more than 91 million people in Russia, the US, and NATO-allied countries could be killed within three hours. The researchers, from Princeton's Science and Global Security lab, created a simulation that shows one tactical "nuclear warning shot" from Russia could quickly devolve into full-blown nuclear war."

Disappointingly fractious.
The estimate seems low.

Considering implications of the cognitive status below:

Yet, that is state media which may only reflect an influential controlling small caste.
Yeah that’s where it went off the rails though a tactical nuke wouldn’t be nearly as catastrophic and could be used to blow up a bunker or a small target not an entire city depending on the megaton load. They did a great job describing how a warhead could fit on a javeline missile or RPG. Doomsday weapons are still improbable and unlikely unless NATO sends in actual troops but a tiny blast at a target would have the same chilling effect without risking complete Annihilation.
 
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Yet, that is state media which may only reflect an influential controlling small caste.

Of course, I would agree with you that these are the beliefs of the ruling elite. The topology of their society is more like that of pre-Enlightenment, pre-Industrial Europe. It's a pyramid with few at the top controlling billions below through state media. And those billions don't question things like you do or they would seek better. Western society is actually more of a different attractor model – one that is diamond-shaped with an outsized middle that outnumbers the poor and isn't petrified of the rich. They don't have this.


Considering implications of the cognitive status below:

Excuse me? What's this implying exactly?
 
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RAÏSanÏa

Member
Yeah that’s where it went off the rails though a tactical nuke wouldn’t be nearly as catastrophic and could be used to blow up a bunker or a small target not an entire city depending on the megaton load. They did a great job describing how a warhead could fit on a javeline missile or RPG. Doomsday weapons are still improbable and unlikely unless NATO sends in actual troops but a tiny blast at a target would have the same chilling effect without risking complete Annihilation.
No one considers Russia to be run by rational leaders at this point. All evidence points to insane fascist crazies who are in kill or be killed mode.
If nuclear weapons fly there likely isn't going to be much contemplation since many scenarios are planned ahead of time. Along with worldwide concerns operational options will decrease and those that remain will escalate quickly.
 
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MrMephistoX

Member
No one considers Russia to be run by rational leaders at this point. All evidence points to insane fascist crazies who are in kill or be killed mode.
If nuclear weapons fly there likely isn't going to be much contemplation since many scenarios are planned ahead of time. Along with worldwide concerns operational options will decrease and those that remain will escalate quickly.
It’s unpredictable sure but one would hope that Putin wants to save face and shock and awe Ukraine into submission with a small tactical nuke rather than destroying the world. It could totally escalate from there but MAD has generally worked for better or worse.
 
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RAÏSanÏa

Member
It’s unpredictable sure but one would hope that Putin wants to save face and shock and awe Ukraine into submission with a small tactical nuke rather than destroying the world. It could totally escalate from there but MAD has generally worked for better or worse.
In a rational world with the worst leaders who at least care for their people as tools of personal benefit, if not through the lens of democracy and freedom, that's a steady constant.
Russia, being ruled by the corrupt and delusional, appears to have been squeezed to the max for its resources and the thieving leadership with expansionist designs has gotten to the point where they want more no matter what. Greed, plus the even deadlier sin of pride at the end equation.

Yet, something said by a political opponent about politicians has stuck with me and will continue to give it due one way or the other: watch what politicians do, not what they say.
 
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Mistake

Member
Another day, another person posting blatant pro-Russian propaganda in this thread.
There were deals made under Obama. This is now confirmed from archived pages off our own government websites. The original pages were deleted recently. https://nationalfile.com/archived-r...iolabs-ukraine-including-vaccine-development/

Seems there’s about 30 labs in Ukraine. I’d also love it if it were propaganda, but after wuhan I had serious doubts. All we need is another pandemic…
 
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Atrus

Gold Member
There were deals made under Obama. This is now confirmed from archived pages off our own government websites. The original pages were deleted recently. https://nationalfile.com/archived-r...iolabs-ukraine-including-vaccine-development/

Seems there’s about 30 labs in Ukraine. I’d also love it if it were propaganda, but after wuhan I had serious doubts. All we need is another pandemic…

There are differences between biological research labs for public health and labs for the development of biological weapons.

Many industrialized nations have biological research labs, often co-located with universities and hospitals, and some of these deal with volatile materials for research purpose.

Here is a "scary" Canadian Biological Research Facility: https://www.cnl.ca/facilities/biological-research-facility/

Now tell me if this is a story about biological weapons development or about dumb-dumbs eating up Russian propaganda so the Russians can justify their attacks.

 
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There are differences between biological research labs for public health and labs for the development of biological weapons.

Many industrialized nations have biological research labs, often co-located with universities and hospitals, and some of these deal with volatile materials for research purpose.

Exactly this is so silly. Let's use Boston as an example, if someone invaded that's like screaming that there are "chemical and biological labs" at Harvard, MIT, Broad, Northeastern and hundreds of biotech start ups that can cook up whatever they desire. Many with domestic and international funding! Ahhhh.
 

Mistake

Member
There are differences between biological research labs for public health and labs for the development of biological weapons.

Many industrialized nations have biological research labs, often co-located with universities and hospitals, and some of these deal with volatile materials for research purpose.

Here is a "scary" Canadian Biological Research Facility: https://www.cnl.ca/facilities/biological-research-facility/

Now tell me if this is a story about biological weapons development or about dumb-dumbs eating up Russian propaganda so the Russians can justify their attacks.

Again, that’s what we were told with the wuhan lab. “We want to understand how these things work, so we need to study it.” Seems hunky dory, until it isn’t. I’m no stranger to science, I get the appeal and all, but who is to say what is in these places and exactly what they were doing. I think it’s better to ask these questions after everything we’ve been through
 
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FunkMiller

Member
Again, that’s what we were told with the wuhan lab. “We want to understand how these things work, so we need to study it.” Seems hunky dory, until it isn’t. I’m no stranger to science, I get the appeal and all, but who is to say what is in these places and exactly what they were doing. I think it’s better to ask these questions after everything we’ve been through

No, it's better to understand that biological research facilities meant for the betterment of public health are a perfectly normal thing, and not continue to prop up Russian propaganda crap that only helps Vladimir Putin.
 

Atrus

Gold Member
Again, that’s what we were told with the wuhan lab. “We want to understand how these things work, so we need to study it.” Seems hunky dory, until it isn’t. I’m no stranger to science, I get the appeal and all, but who is to say what is in these places and exactly what they were doing. I think it’s better to ask these questions after everything we’ve been through

You are not asking these questions. These questions are being posed by propagandists of an autocratic country invading another and seeking supporters of any kind. You are merely acting as a sounding board for this propaganda.

For you, any research lab is as much a black box as any other. You did not independantly wake up one day or through research on a related subject stumble across this concern, you are only interested in this because Russian propagandists pushed your nose into their shit and said "look here".

For reasons I don't know, you obeyed.
 

Mistake

Member
You are not asking these questions. These questions are being posed by propagandists of an autocratic country invading another and seeking supporters of any kind. You are merely acting as a sounding board for this propaganda.

For you, any research lab is as much a black box as any other. You did not independantly wake up one day or through research on a related subject stumble across this concern, you are only interested in this because Russian propagandists pushed your nose into their shit and said "look here".

For reasons I don't know, you obeyed.
Distrust and verify can work for everyone you know, not just one side or the other, but both
 
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FunkMiller

Member
Distrust and verify can work for everyone you know, not just one side or the other, but both

The two sides in this are not equal. Please stop acting like they are. You’re simply buying into RussIan disinformation because you want to entertain the conspiracy theory. People are dying. Stop it.
 
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Mistake

Member
The two sides in this are not equal. Please stop acting like they are. You’re simply buying into RussIan disinformation because you want to entertain the conspiracy theory. People are dying. Stop it.
And plenty more could die if a sudden case of super swine breaks out. Oh well! Back to the war
 
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FunkMiller

Member
And plenty more could if a sudden case of super swine breaks out. Oh well! Back to the war

More conspiracy theories. You think for a second that the things you believe about covid aren’t also deliberate disinformation coming from the same place? Wake up. Russia has been playing the lazy, stupid west like a fiddle for years. They’ve made an art out of spreading conspiracies, designed to weaken the west. People who continue to entertain groundless, tactless nonsense only assist Putin (and Xi for that matter).
 
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Mistake

Member
More conspiracy theories. You think for a second that the things you believe about covid aren’t also deliberate disinformation coming from the same place? Wake up. Russia has been playing the lazy, stupid west like a fiddle for years. They’ve made an art out of spreading conspiracies, designed to weaken the west. People who continue to entertain groundless, tactless nonsense only assist Putin (and Xi for that matter).
Now wait just a second, no one hates us more than we do :messenger_grinning_smiling:
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
State.gov is a questionable source? ….what?
It's supposed archives. The conclusions are ridiculous and obviously intended to support a domestic narrative under the guise of asking stupid questions about nonsense to distract from real issues. A waste of time.
And plenty more could die if a sudden case of super swine breaks out.
Thanks for saying that. It makes my case.
 

nush

Member
Yes his “friend” China will buy more oil in Yen and then, Russia will turn around a buy goods they can’t get anywhere else from China with that Yen. China will then buy more land along Russia’s eastern border with the profits. China is no “friend” and more of an opportunist.

China isn't going to forget past Russia/China border conflicts. They're probably watching and thinking if that can happen again.
 

Mistake

Member
Thanks for saying that. It makes my case.
Not really. Brushing off peoples concerns over and over the same as the last two years isn’t going to make things better. I thought some would have learned that by now, and yet you or funk wonder why your words aren’t reaching across the aisle. Just forget it then.
 

RAÏSanÏa

Member
Not really. Brushing off peoples concerns over and over the same as the last two years isn’t going to make things better. I thought some would have learned that by now, and yet you or funk wonder why your words aren’t reaching across the aisle. Just forget it then.
There's no aisle. There's life which comes with responsibility and humility to accommodate others and death which requires irresponsibility and self-serving conceit to accommodate only oneself.
One contributes to civilization and other leeches.
 
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