Ionian
Member
See, that's more of a level response than that an explosive swear-laden rant.
My post to you was your first lesson and I'm glad you benefited from it. I'm proud of you son, keep up the good work!
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Russia begins Invasion of Ukraine
- Thread starter AfricanKing
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See, that's more of a level response than that an explosive swear-laden rant.
My post to you was your first lesson and I'm glad you benefited from it. I'm proud of you son, keep up the good work!
Rat Rage
Member
True. And let's not forget the worst thing of it all: Putin outright bought the former (pre-Merkel) chancellor of Germany, Gerhard Schröder, and made him his puppet (a.k.a giving him a job at the board of directors at Gazprom).
Think about it for a second... The former chancellor (basically president) of Germany got a job at fucking Gazprom! No wonder Germany became so fucking dependant on russian gas.
Putin and Schröder = best friends. PERSONALLY I would be disgusted having dinner with a psychopath (picture from 2002), but I guess if you are a man without any principles who only cares about money, it probably isn't that bad?
FunkMiller
Banned
I think it's important to point out that a lot of the anger being directed at countries like Germany stems from the fact that for decades, it has lectured about the foreign policy of other countries in the most arrogant and superior tones imaginable, and now that it's been caught with its pants down in the single worst foreign policy decision in modern history, it's getting rightly rinsed for it.
Those of you uncomfortable or angry about the vitriol being aimed at Germany, and the wider EU, might want to reflect that had both been a little more diplomatic, and a little less pompous, then the schadenfreude wouldn't be quite so sharp.
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Halo is Back
Member
Some cities in Ukraine like Mariupol look like those old photos from WW2. Hard to believe it was once a peaceful bustling metropolitan area full of people. Shit is reminiscent of what many would consider the apocalypse. Zelensky is right on the money with this quote.
Tams
Member
More examples of what a poor education leads to.
These clowns, if they ever make it to Ukraine, will like the Syrians not find a warm welcome. Not just by the natives (and let's be honest, there is some racisim in Ukraine that absolutely spill out if these morons were caught fighting for Russia), but also the weather. They'd be begging to go home within a day.
These clowns, if they ever make it to Ukraine, will like the Syrians not find a warm welcome. Not just by the natives (and let's be honest, there is some racisim in Ukraine that absolutely spill out if these morons were caught fighting for Russia), but also the weather. They'd be begging to go home within a day.
This was known for years:
Last I heard, TOTAL German ammunition stockpiles were 1 days worth of use. How can you possibly help supply anyone else when your own army would be out of ammo in less than 24 hours.
The US had to lend everything from small arms ammunition to JDAMs to NATO allies during the Libya campaign where the only reason the US was involved was to support NATO allies(Britain and France, who both look like military superpowers in comparison to Germany).
Libya’s Dark Lesson for NATO (Published 2011)
The war in Libya raises the question of whether European members of NATO will ever decide to embark on such a mission again.
There is a reason every US president since the end of the cold war has criticized Germany's underinvestment in defense, and there is justification for the American skepticism in NATO that results in Donald Trump types. Europe needs to be able to defend itself, not because the US wouldn't help if needed, but because the scale of US hard power is destabilizing. If Europe could deter Russia on it's own, Russia could not propagandize this as some great power conflict against the US or argue that it is an existential fight in order to threaten nuclear warfare.
As I said before, Germany is not alone, France is worse about Russia in every respect aside from reliance on Russian fuel and basic military readiness, but if you are going to try to be a geopolitical player, you have to take responsibility when you fuck up, especially if you do so against the advice of many of your allies.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
MisterFalcon
Member
Those look like the YPR's that were stripped of their serious weapon (kind of, a 25mm cannon) for UN duties 30 years ago. Because it was peacekeeping and big guns were not appropriate.
Once that clown show was over with the Srebrenica disaster they were probably painted back in camo colors and dumped in a warehouse to never be seen again until now.
Not sure what this will help, better send two CV90's then this pile of junk that just takes up crews from using useful combat vehicles.
We where already on it ..Putin:
Atleast we do what we can, we are not a big country, with not a lot allocated to war. You can go from North to South in about 5 hours driving. Unlike for example Germany who did pretty much nothing . A couple of our Aircraft are already weeks stationed in Poland for example .
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Azurro
Banned
Those Russian soldiers are lower than animals, fucking hell, those poor people were just taking care of the zoo animals.
Gp1
Member
It's a souped up M113. Well, at least is "armored" and tracked. I believe the US is donating some M113s too.
Tams
Member
Is there not a single day these days where another monsterous Russian crime doesn't come to light?
Honestly, unless they can clearly show that they are pro democracy and have a history of pressing against the regime there... they can rot in hell. Not speaking up is complacency.
We (well, for almost all of us our ancestors) had to force the ordinary Germans to see the Nazi crimes before any significant number of them began showing remorse. And even then many went to their graves secretly believing they did nothing wrong.
FunkMiller
Banned
Yep. Only the total destruction of the Russian nation as it exists today will be punishment enough for what they are doing. Every democracy on the planet should bend its will over the next few years to ensure this happens. Sanctions, cyber attacks, covert activity to destablise, wetwork. Nothing should be off the table, bar all out warfare.
None of this will happen, of course. Because money and gas and power and oil and bank balances and politics and 2022. But it should happen.
Nikodemos
Member
The destruction of the current, degenerate incarnation of the Russian state would, ironically, be a blessing for the Russian people. The Putinist state, with its generalized violence and grift, is the main obstacle in the path of the average Ivan and Olga's happiness and increased living quality.
I'm not the only one who thinks this ; https://www.theguardian.com/comment...more-or-ukraine-will-be-torn-apart-bit-by-bit
... and that's just one commentator I have seen who believes Putin would back off. Especially as his army has had it's ar$e handed to it by Ukraine (so far), so he knows he'd not win a war against 30+ countries. Putin hasn't yet used chemical weapons or nuclear weapons against Ukraine for fear of a Western military response, which provides evidence he a) fears it and b) is a rational actor.
Majukun
Member
again, it's not about what you think. or what other people thinks.
it's about betting literally the fate of the world on trying to call a possible bluff.
it's entirely possible that things would not escalate if this conflict actually turns into a NATO vs Russia and whatever ally they can get, BUt the opposite is also possible, and that's game over.
The leaders of the world are not gonna risk a nuclear conflict for ukraine (with all love and respect for the people there), and thanks god for that.
we can stay all day playing armchair strategist and psychologist and call what would happen, there's always a chance that things would not go as predicted, and the consequences in that case are too damn high.
Rest
All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
Nicholas Moran
Be careful drawing conclusions from the Ukraine combat videos
Be careful drawing conclusions from the Ukraine combat videos
"There are a lot of videos coming out of Ukraine, leading to a lot of opinions. Not to be a wet blanket, but I caution that these are merely small data points, and normally will only permit conclusions supported by that one snippet, not larger trends. [Edit. Dear God, people, this is a video about critical thinking. It's not about who I think is going to win or who I hope is going to win (Ukraine, for the record). Listen carefully to my words: saying "Not everything unpleasant is a war crime" is NOT the same as "Russia is committing no war crimes".]"
This video provides some insight from a professional soldier who served as an infantryman in Ireland and a tank commander in the US Army. He cautions against taking everything that's coming out of Ukraine at face value, since both sides are using propaganda. He focuses on video coming out of the warzone and reminds viewers that editing can change what a video appears to show. Please be aware that this video is about a month old now, it was originally posted on March 23rd, 2022.
Majukun
Member
it's war communication, anyone taking what either side says at face value is a fool.
MisterFalcon
Member
And at the same time anyone who thinks the two sides are equally likely to lie are even more foolish. The Russians record for lying is nearly 100%, even when there is no reason to like claiming their own incompetence sank their flagship and not the enemy.
Wildebeest
Member
The problem is, nobody knows what the increased risk is of letting people like Putin get away with whatever they want without their bluff being called. The bedrock of his strategy is that the west is too decadent and divided to ever stand up to him in any way, even in the partial way we are seeing now.
Majukun
Member
considering the sanctions and the heavy support done by "the decadent west" for Ukraine, i would hardly said that they are letting putin get away with anything...other leaders would give an hand to get the amount of support Ukraine got so far, despite NATO having no obligations to do so since they are not a member
You talk like pseudo dictators and mutually assured distruction policy are new things that were only now allowed to exist...we have dictators all over the globe and the threat of nuclear armageddon has been there since the cold war...and it's what kept the world relatively peaceful for decades at this point.
Wildebeest
Member
Somehow, the leadership of the Soviet Union were more legitimate and reasonable than the current Putin leadership. The Soviets wanted people to think that their world view was right, when it was often nonsensical and reality defying, while Putin wants people to think that nothing in the world is true other than the legitimacy of his right to absolute and permanent power.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
FFS Twitter.
AJUMP23
Parody of actual AJUMP23
Maybe the think if everyone sends their weapons to Ukraine and they hold onto theirs, they can take a third shot at world domination.
Alx
Member
Seriously please stop analyzing Germany based on old WWII references... since the end of that war, anything military has been taboo in the country. It has basically zero offensive army and only basic defensive troops, counting on allies and NATO for everything war-related. All this "don't give Germany an opportunity to act like nazis/invade a country" just shows how little you know of European geopolitics.
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akimbo009
Gold Member
looks like U.S. intel directly contributed to the sinking of the Moskva. Pootin won't be happy when he finds out about this
www.dailymail.co.uk
Did the US Navy supply Ukraine with the location of the Moskva
The US Navy deployed one of its Boeing Poseidon P-8 maritime surveillance aircraft on the Black Sea coast over Romania in the hours before the Ukrainian attack on the Moskva.
Poseidon and Neptune in co-ordination.Did the US Navy supply Ukraine with the location of the Moskva
The US Navy deployed one of its Boeing Poseidon P-8 maritime surveillance aircraft on the Black Sea coast over Romania in the hours before the Ukrainian attack on the Moskva.
strange headache
Banned
Really the hottest of all hot takes.
Public healthcare isn't necessarily more expensive than the f*cked up system you have now, as evidenced by Canada. If you'd have even the slightest idea of how public spending and social systems work, you'd know that your military budget certainly is not what's preventing you guys access to decent healthcare.
You also seem to be completely inept at reading statistics, since they pretty much show the complete opposite of the silly narrative you've been trying to spin here these past few weeks. It is pretty obvious that you don't care for objectivity at all and just want to spew your bile against Europe. Let's have a real look at these statistics, instead of your reductive screeching.
First, these statistics only show international support since February 2022. All aids which have been granted to Ukraine before that are not taken into account, such as the €17 billion in grants that the EU has given to Ukraine since 2014. Speaking of which, the statistics show only support on a national level, supranational institutions such as the EU are not yet taken into account.
The statistics also don't take into account that EU countries help through direct contributions, but also indirectly through the European institutions. Aids provided through the EU, of which German is one of the biggest contributors, are still not taken into account:
Lastly, you are comparing a federal state of 380mio. inhabitants to a single nation of 80mio. If we compare contributions in relation to GDP, things already look much differently:
With the exception of Estonia and Poland, government support seems to be pretty equal between all countries in relation to their market size:
The U.S. contributed 7.6 billion euros, while the EU "only" contributed 6.3 billion. Yes it's less than the U.S. but still a far cry from "the EU not giving a sh*t", as you claim!
In total the U.S. contributions are totally awesome, but let's also not forget that their GDP per capita is 56% bigger than that of the European Union. Those are some insane differences. While Western Europe has strong markets, Eastern European countries are still in the process of developing their economic power (not to mention the countries who are in dire financial straits like Greece).
While the EU contributions are not in their graphs, they are part of their data:
So in total, Europe provided about 0.04% (6.3 billion out of 15 trillion) of its GDP, while the U.S. provided also 0.04% (7.6 billion out of 19 trillion) of its GDP. This isn't even taking into account the 17 billion that the EU provided in grants, loans and financial aids to the Ukraine since 2014. Germany alone provided 2 billion Euros in financial aid since 2014, something that's also not in these statistics. If anything, Estonia (0,7%) is the real MVP here.
F*cking hell, Americans spend more on A/C ($500 compared to $23 in financial aid for Ukraine per capita) than this crisis so far, which is especially hilarious since you suggested Europe should just make a bonfire to keep itself warm... so don't give us that crap about not having "nice things the the US" because you need to help Europe.
These numbers clearly show that Europe does care, at least as much as anybody else.
I hope we can finally put this f*cking shite 'us. vs. them mentality' at rest!
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Alx
Member
It's not about taking a joke or criticism (I'm not even German), but Americans clearly have a very limited understanding of European geopolitics, and such "jokes" clearly don't help.
D
Deleted member 1159
Unconfirmed Member
If their physical forces are anything to go by, I very much doubt there’s adherence to best practices in the cyber realm.
akimbo009
Gold Member
Really the hottest of all hot takes.
Public healthcare isn't necessarily more expensive than the f*cked up system you have now, as evidenced by Canada. If you'd have even the slightest idea of how public spending and social systems work, you'd know that your military budget certainly is not what's preventing you guys access to decent healthcare.
You also seem to be completely inept at reading statistics, since they pretty much show the complete opposite of the silly narrative you've been trying to spin here these past few weeks. It is pretty obvious that you don't care for objectivity at all and just want to spew your bile against Europe. Let's have a real look at these statistics, instead of your reductive screeching.
First, these statistics only show international support since February 2022. All aids which have been granted to Ukraine before that are not taken into account, such as the €17 billion in grants that the EU has given to Ukraine since 2014. Speaking of which, the statistics show only support on a national level, supranational institutions such as the EU are not yet taken into account.
The statistics also don't take into account that EU countries help through direct contributions, but also indirectly through the European institutions. Aids provided through the EU, of which German is one of the biggest contributors, are still not taken into account:
Lastly, you are comparing a federal state of 380mio. inhabitants to a single nation of 80mio. If we compare contributions in relation to GDP, things already look much differently:
With the exception of Estonia and Poland, government support seems to be pretty equal between all countries in relation to their market size:
The U.S. contributed 7.6 billion euros, while the EU "only" contributed 6.3 billion. Yes it's less than the U.S. but still a far cry from "the EU not giving a sh*t", as you claim!
In total the U.S. contributions are totally awesome, but let's also not forget that their GDP per capita is 56% bigger than that of the European Union. Those are some insane differences. While Western Europe has strong markets, Eastern European countries are still in the process of developing their economic power (not to mention the countries who are in dire financial straits like Greece).
While the EU contributions are not in their graphs, they are part of their data:
So in total, Europe provided about 0.04% (6.3 billion out of 15 trillion) of its GDP, while the U.S. provided also 0.04% (7.6 billion out of 19 trillion) of its GDP. This isn't even taking into account the 17 billion that the EU provided in grants, loans and financial aids to the Ukraine since 2014. Germany alone provided 2 billion Euros in financial aid since 2014, something that's also not in these statistics. If anything, Estonia (0,7%) is the real MVP here.
F*cking hell, Americans spend more on A/C ($500 compared to $23 in financial aid for Ukraine per capita) than this crisis so far, which is especially hilarious since you suggested Europe should just make a bonfire to keep itself warm... so don't give us that crap about not having "nice things the the US" because you need to help Europe.
These numbers clearly show that Europe does care, at least as much as anybody else.
I hope we can finally put this f*cking shite 'us. vs. them mentality' at rest!
Care about Russian oil, which got us in this mess you mean.
Your bed, and apparently the hill you want to die on. You can spin it all you want, but fact is EU - especially Germany - got us in this mess and their leadership has been falling behind all over the place and being thrown to the ground by Zelensky every day.
You are arguing the wrong points.
akimbo009
Gold Member
Sure the help, they are hilarious.
But the only person who doesn't understand geopolitics is Merkle, and your defense of her and the EUs policies is why you're being criticized. It's not a nuance or not understanding, we understand all too well and you're getting dragged for it across the media, even within the EU. Don't yell at me about that - y'all gotta do more and hopefully the chorus of criticism helps force your leadership to do that.
strange headache
Banned
Shifting goalposts already? Yeah no, the numbers don't lie. So how about you address the arguments at hand.
Your narrative is blatantly false and has been since the frikkin' beginning!
You just saw the big blue bar and gleefully started to shit on the EU, when the numbers show a completely different picture.
This only shows that you are full of crap. You just want to justify your hateboner and are not even interested in facts.
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akimbo009
Gold Member
Not moving the goal posts at all. And as I said, the donations, and support for Ukraine are DISPROPORTIONATELY allocated to countries in the EU that are giving most when they have they least (e.g. Estonia, Poland, Lithuania). That's in my original post - and your data actually re-enforces that.
Fact is, Europe shouldn't be less than the US on any measure. The US actually has no obligation to do anything here - we're doing it cause it's the right thing to do. However, it is an existential crisis for a European country, and should be extraordinarily responded to by the European community. Again, you're arguing for the wrong thing here - it's still embarrassing the EU has done as little as it when one of it's own is getting blown up. You're hiding behind the US for your own inaction. Stop. The EU should engage and outstrip anything the US is doing because it's literally in your own backyard.
funkygunther
Banned
as much as I enjoy shitting on France and Germany, as is my cultural rite as an Englishman, this retrospective finger-pointing of who "got us in this mess" serves no purpose other than to rile people up
whether it's EU's fault, or Biden's fault, or Zelensky's fault, or NATO's fault we always have to remember that Russia and Russia alone got us in this mess, and it's not the hindsight blame-game but the actions from now on that matter most
and that's where I reserve the right to shit on the Germans
strange headache
Banned
Read your own f*cking comment:
You outright stated that Europe does not care while the US is pulling all the weight.
I showed you that governmental aids from the EU are on the same levels as from the U.S. in relation to the GDP (both 0,04%), despite Europe having a 56% weaker GDP per capita.
You stated that the American war efforts and their need to "protect" us dumb Europeans are the reason why you can't have nice things such as decent healthcare.
I showed you that the war in Ukraine has so far cost you about $23 dollars in tax money.
I cannot possibly make this any clearer.
You cannot simply compare single European countries like that when they are part of a supranational institution. That would be like comparing Texan contributions to the war effort in Ukraine to the EU while completely ignoring the federal aid.
Also let us maybe not ignore the U.S. meddling in Ukrainian affairs, but that serves absolutely no purpose here.
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The problem here is that you have a problem understanding Europe and how it all works together, we're not a single state with decision made by one person. I'm one of the 1st to shit on the EU and Germany influence on it, but the reality is without Germany and France the EU would be a shadow of itself economically.
This shit of pointing fingers because they buy Russian Gas it's all fun and games, reality is USA never refrained from buying oil and other shit from some of the worst bastards in the world. It's not ideal, but it's what we have now, enter a dick measuring contest between who gives more seems ill advised and frankly an excuse to avenge all the jokes made about USA.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
Omg I love your schnitzel.
akimbo009
Gold Member
Look, maybe putting pressure on them actually helped.
It all comes down to economics, not what's right. That's not stopping Estonia, and others from doing the right thing. And the US has spent the better part of the past 20 years decoupling from bad actor oil producers. It's lucky that it has that option cause it can produce it's own oil or work with a reliable partner like Canada, but between Nordstream (which Germany basically told the US to fuck off, went forward DESPITE Georgia and Crimea, they knew exactly who they were getting into bed with) and then shutting down nuclear power plants it's a huge geopolitical failure.
I'll give it a rest, but some of this self-defense of EU is crazy - and I hope we don't stop cause we can't go back to how things used to be - EU needs to learn from their failures, not defend them.
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