Dragon1893
Member
Ran into a boss that does some serious physical damage, I'll have to review my line-up for this fucker.
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Shin Megami Tensei IV |EU OT| Atlus Shrugged
- Thread starter Samurai_Heart
- Start date
Managed to finish up this game yesterday. I thought it'd be a good idea to write up some thoughts on it for anyone interested. Don't highlight the spoiler tags in the alignment system section if you haven't finished the game. They're major.
Good:
Story/Setting - From start to finish, the game kept me interested in what was going to happen and how each of the characters I'd met were ultimately going to end up. Not only the main cast, but also a lot of the side characters had their own motivations and clearly their own alignments, meaning that every decision I made for one side might negatively affect a number of characters I liked with different ideals.
was a high point for sure, even though I expected something like it given previous settings.
Combat Difficulty - It's nice to have an RPG that actually makes you think. In most modern RPGs, outside of optional side content or certain boss battles, you can get by with sub-par tactics due to your characters strength, but in almost every random battle in this game, it truly feels like a fight for your life. The bosses remain a great challenge and exploiting weaknesses is always a must.
Demon Designs - I know these have been in most SMT games, but I really enjoy the individual takes on so many entities from various religions, legends and mythology. There were a couple of art style discrepancies, but I imagine that's something to do with the series being around for so long
Bad:
Difficulty Curve - The game starts off incredibly hard, to the point that progressing is almost reliant on save-scumming your way through largely random demon recruitment until you hopefully have a good enough team that you can pray the next boss doesn't destroy you in one turn. As you progress, it becomes easier and easier to the point that I was able to auto-battle my way through most late-game encounters. No matter what way you look at it, the difficulty curve is broken. It almost feels like a different set of designers worked on the first part of the game compared to the rest of it.
Smirking - In all honestly, I have never been a massive fan of the Turn Press battle system. It seems too skewed towards do-or-die battles where you spend your time firing shots in the dark until you discover the enemies weakness, and then exploit that until you win. Critical hits and random misses make the battles sometimes feel more luck-based than skill-based and there is nothing worse than losing half of your party to a light or darkness spell. Smirking takes the things that I dislike about SMT's battle system and amplifies them dramatically. With crits and misses being based almost entirely on luck, rewarding that random element with something so absurdly powerful almost makes this game into the Mario Kart of RPGs
Alignment System - The alignment system is broken and almost ruined this game for me. In every single significant event in the game, I chose the
, siding with
over
. There was a point in the late-game story where my character
and yet when I reached the point where the story determined my ending based on what I had done, I found myself
. Why? Because
. I know that people criticise series like Mass Effect for making the results of your action tie to a few key moments and decisions rather than the overall story arc, but it's much better to do that than it is to try this and have what happened to me occur. My problems are amplified by the fact that you cannot view what your alignment is anywhere in the menus, making it even harder to get the ending you want, and good luck to anyone trying to get the neutral ending since they made the window so comparatively small.
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Overall, the game is a good one, but the battle system feels too random sometimes and getting a different ending to the one I'd intended due to an obscured system really ruined the endgame for me. Being able to save anywhere was a nice feature for a relative newcomer to the series like me and I'd daresay a necessity given the tendency of these games to randomly kill you, but it also took away the weight of death and made the inclusion of Charon completely pointless unless you'd forgotten to save.
Good:
Story/Setting - From start to finish, the game kept me interested in what was going to happen and how each of the characters I'd met were ultimately going to end up. Not only the main cast, but also a lot of the side characters had their own motivations and clearly their own alignments, meaning that every decision I made for one side might negatively affect a number of characters I liked with different ideals.
The reveal at the end of Naraku
Combat Difficulty - It's nice to have an RPG that actually makes you think. In most modern RPGs, outside of optional side content or certain boss battles, you can get by with sub-par tactics due to your characters strength, but in almost every random battle in this game, it truly feels like a fight for your life. The bosses remain a great challenge and exploiting weaknesses is always a must.
Demon Designs - I know these have been in most SMT games, but I really enjoy the individual takes on so many entities from various religions, legends and mythology. There were a couple of art style discrepancies, but I imagine that's something to do with the series being around for so long
Bad:
Difficulty Curve - The game starts off incredibly hard, to the point that progressing is almost reliant on save-scumming your way through largely random demon recruitment until you hopefully have a good enough team that you can pray the next boss doesn't destroy you in one turn. As you progress, it becomes easier and easier to the point that I was able to auto-battle my way through most late-game encounters. No matter what way you look at it, the difficulty curve is broken. It almost feels like a different set of designers worked on the first part of the game compared to the rest of it.
Smirking - In all honestly, I have never been a massive fan of the Turn Press battle system. It seems too skewed towards do-or-die battles where you spend your time firing shots in the dark until you discover the enemies weakness, and then exploit that until you win. Critical hits and random misses make the battles sometimes feel more luck-based than skill-based and there is nothing worse than losing half of your party to a light or darkness spell. Smirking takes the things that I dislike about SMT's battle system and amplifies them dramatically. With crits and misses being based almost entirely on luck, rewarding that random element with something so absurdly powerful almost makes this game into the Mario Kart of RPGs
Alignment System - The alignment system is broken and almost ruined this game for me. In every single significant event in the game, I chose the
chaotic option, opting for freedom over order
..... . Walter
.Jonathan
activates the gate at the reactor opening a portal to the realm of demons itself
marching into the reactor and battling Lucifer alongside Jonathan to wipe out Tokyo and all the sinners that dwelled within for the Glory of God
I'd spared a few people along the way and wasn't purposely an ass to anyone in my dialogue choices
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Overall, the game is a good one, but the battle system feels too random sometimes and getting a different ending to the one I'd intended due to an obscured system really ruined the endgame for me. Being able to save anywhere was a nice feature for a relative newcomer to the series like me and I'd daresay a necessity given the tendency of these games to randomly kill you, but it also took away the weight of death and made the inclusion of Charon completely pointless unless you'd forgotten to save.
Well, not if you're (not a story spoiler, just bonus boss-related)
hunting for Fiends during the endgame. Should one kill you after finally spawning it (you only have a 1/256 chance of doing so), paying Charon allows you to return and be able to save before challenging it again without wasting the hours, days, or weeks it might take to find it once more. Should you not pay him first and just reload as you normally would, you would be back to searching for whichever Fiend you spawned
As for the alignment thing, it is possible to check what it is at the time via
the Cynical Man in the Hunter Association bars
Smirks can be frustrating when the enemy gets them, but there is one thing that may help with that, at the very least when dealing with fodder (provided it's your turn again while they're still smirking): getting hit with a status effect cancels a smirk, the best way to do it being via the expendable gas items (poison, sleep, nerve).
Not much I can say about the difficulty curve, it does start out more challenging than it ends up being, bonus bosses aside.
The alignment system is a simple, score-based system that adds points towards your law or chaos score every time you make a decision. There is only one event in the game that adds significantly to one or the other that is not completely obvious and that's
the lady that asks you if you're human (+10, or 10 towards law) or a demon (-10, or 10 towards chaos)
What I do agree with is that the alignment heroes and the choices that add towards your alignment were too black and white in this game, especially compared to other games like Strange Journey where choices were more ambiguous.
Also you can check your current alignment with that guy whose name I forgot that frequents the hunter bars later on in the game.
Right, that's the one.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
Just fought David are there more fights like that? that was the first time i got them feels i get when playing persona
E_Darkness
Member
The Cynical Man.
David was unique in respect to the Fiend battles, the remaining ones being much harder to trigger and not as personal (no monologuing by them like with him). Regular bosses will often still involve conversing with them, with the right answers making battles go more smoothly and the wrong ones making them more difficult.
That was how I played on my first run without a guide while still managing to get Neutral, anyway. Just keep in mind that some sidequests have choices which affect alignment. I got away with doing some of those, but in general you don't want to take on too many of them (try avoiding the Hunter Tournament quests in particular).
AmethystEnd
Member
Don't own a 3DS but hot damn, that OT subtitle.
No. All enemies in SMT IV have fixed levels. One of the domains did have an early 70s-level boss, though.
Wait to see
Sanat
To be fair though, you more or less get used to the new
Archangel
Michael
But yeah, as I already said in this thread, I hope Kaneko will be the only demon designer for the next game.
Did Doi do any demons? His character designs are rather nice.
Edit: playing Bayonetta 2 right know. The angel designs remind me a bit of those of SMT IV. Well, especially the random placement of the head on the body.
Imp the Dimp
Member
Tamaya ordered me to kill the leader of the ring of Gaea
Snarfington
Member
Just started playing yesterday.
"Now you dig!"
"This hole will be your grave!"
My first SMT game, although I love Persona, and the absolute beatdown you feel when negotiations fail and the game just destroys you is amazing. Loving the difficulty.
"Now you dig!"
"This hole will be your grave!"
My first SMT game, although I love Persona, and the absolute beatdown you feel when negotiations fail and the game just destroys you is amazing. Loving the difficulty.
GwyndolinCinder
Member
If theres one thing this game has done for me its convince me that i must the other smt spin offs, starting with Devil Survivor
Hard to say, as it depends on how many side quests you're doing, and which route you'll get (neutral is a bit longer). But roughly a bit over the half.
Don't get used to it, the difficulty drops pretty fast after a few hours.
Dragon1893
Member
They're all great so you're in for one hell (pun intended) of a ride. Devil Survivor games are fantastic. Soul Hackers is also great. Make sure you play the Digital Devil Saga duology if you have access to a PS2 or PS3.
Really? while the style is lesser compared to Kaneko's, the design concept really capture
the portray of angels as merely nothing but mechanical, robotic servant of Go
this is even mentioned by Isabeau how the angel act like robot.
They're ugly as hell. And not something I picture seeing in a SMT game. Seeing them In the same game as classic demon designs just exacerbates how ugly they are. I get what they're supposed to portray, and that's why I said they're lacking in subtlety.
Snarfington
Member
I'm sure by then I'll be engaged enough not to care, but that's a big shame. Are any other games in SMT series as tough all the way as this one is at the start? Gonna have to look into more once I eventually finish this.Imp the Dimp
Member
Devil Survivor, SMT 3 and Strange Journey are tough and never get easy. The other SMTs are moderate.
Tizoc
Member
So apparently Kabuso is a catalyst for uber duper strong Demons for whatever reason.
Gonna go grab 3 or so of those dumb cats before proceeding.
Currently lvl. 22ish nearing 60 points in DX and Luck. When do I start getting more Points for my stats?
Current game objective is
Gonna go grab 3 or so of those dumb cats before proceeding.
Currently lvl. 22ish nearing 60 points in DX and Luck. When do I start getting more Points for my stats?
Current game objective is
finding the Fridge etc. for the Abbot.
They may call it Mystical Relics but its obvious those jerks just want that comfy life, yeesh
They may call it Mystical Relics but its obvious those jerks just want that comfy life, yeesh
I don't think any SMT (at least the ones I played) are as tough at the beginning.
But most keep a rather constant difficulty curve, whereas the one of SMT4 takes a deep fall after a few hours. Only exception is Persona 4 Golden. Stangely enough (...) both share one point: free skill choice during fusion.
Try SMT3: Nocturne / Lucifer's Call, the best SMT imho.
You don't. There are quite a few incenses (items that increases your stats) laying in dungeons/overworld or as rewrds from quests.
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
Just got the game. Is there any DLC that is a must buy? I don't want any gamebreaking leveling DLC though, just story stuff, dungeons etc.
The story related stuff isn't out yet and from my understanding is all post game stuff anyway.
The story DLCs add a bit to the backstory of the game (and unlock nice fusions), but they're all postgame stuff.
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
Ah ok. I'll look into them when I finish the game then.
I disagree. The new
heralds
Orniletter
Banned
I´m just done with the forest area (5-6 hours in)....and I can already say that I enjoy mainline SMT games so, so, so much more than Persona.
Holy shit, the athmosphere.....and actual leveldesign. Lucifer´s Call is on it´s way to me as I type this.
The wait was worth it.
Holy shit, the athmosphere.....and actual leveldesign. Lucifer´s Call is on it´s way to me as I type this.
The wait was worth it.
If you find level design of smt iv impressive, 1, 2 and Nocturne are going to blow you up. (and dont forget strange journey)
The only thing I've missed from IV are the mazes.
Orniletter
Banned
Just in relation to Persona 3&4´s dreadful tartarus and.....whatever P4´s equivalent is called
( I played both for 10+ hours....and just couldn´t do it anymore. So bad)I bought Lucifer´s call/Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga and already own Strange Journey ( but never played it for whatever reason), consider me hooked
Dragon1893
Member
I wish I could experience Nocturne for the first time again. What an absolute masterpiece.
The lack of mazes is part of why I actually like the level design of IV, but that's me (personally, I don't care for the labyrinthine, grid-based level design in games like Strange Journey or Soul Hackers). I wasn't expecting the dungeons to be as "practical" as most of them are in IV, so I found that refreshing. I'd like to see P5 take cues from it, but even if it doesn't, just getting away from the randomly-generated dungeons of P3 and P4 would be nice.
Dragon1893
Member
I can agree with this, I don't have the patience I used to have, though I did play Soul Hackers not too long ago and was fine with it because of the save anywhere app, the story and characters are great too so that kept me going.
I tried getting into Etryan Oddyssey Untold a few days ago and ended up dropping it.
Reached
earlier tonight..this game keeps getting better.
I love the Personas, except for boring 3/4 dungeons. I love Soul Hackers. I really love Nocturne, which I only started for the first time recently...but don't get much of a chance to play it..probably only ~10 hours in. I don't feel at one with it (yet?). Handheld means I can play lots so, so far, SMT IV is by far my favourite of any of these. So far the difficulty and slight streamlinedness of it suit me well.. Argh it's so good! (now can't wait to devote time to Nocturne after this when I can)
edit: whoops! spoiltagged my spoiler. thanks guys
Tokyo
I love the Personas, except for boring 3/4 dungeons. I love Soul Hackers. I really love Nocturne, which I only started for the first time recently...but don't get much of a chance to play it..probably only ~10 hours in. I don't feel at one with it (yet?). Handheld means I can play lots so, so far, SMT IV is by far my favourite of any of these. So far the difficulty and slight streamlinedness of it suit me well.. Argh it's so good! (now can't wait to devote time to Nocturne after this when I can)
edit: whoops! spoiltagged my spoiler. thanks guys
Tizoc
Member
Oh I see. Only thing that bugs me about them is that they also recover your health. I should use one after battles
Speaking of which I've been grinding in this one domain for an hour now, will stop once the EXP becomes to little to be beneficial, take out the domain boss then go back to spelunking.
Dragon1893
Member
SPOILERS!
Imp the Dimp
Member
Spoiler that, bro.
Same things kept me going with Soul Hackers (and more cyberpunk SMT is always good). I've only played the demo of Etrian Odyssey IV myself, but to my surprise, I wound up liking it more than I thought I would.
Dragon1893
Member
It's too repetitive for me. Ran out of TP? Backtrack to town. Wanna save? Backtrack to town. For the hours I put into it I felt like I barely accomplished anything.
I want to said that the new Four Heralds designs are what could expect from modern Kaneko he ever want to redesign them. Kaneko's Four Heralds modern art work we usually see like in Persona are just a redone to make them more aesthetically pleasing for modern viewer, but in design they haven't actually changed at all. The new Four Heralds however completely changed it. Seraph, which I presume designed for Strange Journey, are in line in them in conceptual design. It just the Four Heralds have very different aesthetic which makes them off putting for those who liked and getting used to unique Kaneko's aesthetic style of design, while in concept they are what I consider Kaneko-ish.
Well if people don't like them on aesthetic level, I think that's fine because people have different taste.
I don't find them very Kaneko-ish.
Kaneko's art-style is usually rather "clean", by which I mean not overcharged with details.
Pretty much all the new designs are, on the contrary, overcharged with details. The worse being Sanat.
Your example of Seraph vs the new Archangels illustrate that very well, just put them side to side, and I think you'll see what I mean.
Spieler Eins
Member
The beauty of dumb AI partners giving the enemies smirks.
Out_Of_Ammo
Member
What does it mean when someone smirks? Is his next attack a crit or something?
Max Buffs + Raised Critical Chance
Even the P3 AI wasn't that dumb. At least it's only one attack per turn.
I think the main thing I miss from the Nocturne system was how every physical attack would crit after you hit an enemy with their weakness enough to lock them in place. It was so satisfying.