I find that shirt awfully tacky.
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'Shirtstorm' Leads To Apology From European Space Scientist
- Thread starter richiek
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stufte
Member
Lenseflares really do make shit look insta-classy.
Was this really necessary, though? Not elevating the debate with an ad hominem like that.
https://twitter.com/roseveleth/status/532539812855959552
it's pretty amusing how, if we're looking for tweets being unnecessarily abusive towards the ESA guy "Thanks, asshole" is among the worst we can find.
"Thanks asshole" is what we consider overreacting and being a massive idiot about the issue.
meanwhile, at #gg ...
stufte
Member
I didn't know it was a contest between this and GG.
plasmawave
Banned
There ya go.
There does what go?
Well, it isn't. Just like there is no possible reason anyone should be comparing the ESA guy's shirt with Kim Kardashian.
I don't think the latter is indicative, why women are so under-represented in science fields.
She is saying, I think pretty clearly, that Kim is an adult and chose to appear on that cover, and so you have to take that choice into account. The shirt obviously has no such agency.
It's interesting to see so many people in this thread concerned over the Kardashian magazine cover's exploitative nature, by the way, given that I didn't notice any of you posting in the actual thread about the magazine cover to talk about how it's sexist trash.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I wasn't looking for the "worst" tweets. She's the one whose initial tweets about the subject started this conversation to begin with.
<3 I meant it as an affectionate ribbing, glad you took it well.
Gentleman Jack
Member
This is a series of posts that pretend to have something to say but are really about taunting people you've provoked into responding. It's crap like this that only increases frustration without expanding any understanding between people who disagree and I don't think you're unaware of that. Yet you continue. Have you actually tried discussing with someone about this topic today?
Yeah, even after reading through the thread, I'm still pretty certain that the problem concerning women in STEM fields is to do with the expectations that women go through in childhood.
I mean really, do you think that the lack of women in STEM fields is because they heard that people in these fields were intolerant of women? Or because they'd been conditioned to believe that these weren't positions that a woman should be interested in? And when considering this, remember that in order to be successful in these fields, you really need to focus on them in high school.
That's not to say that women who are in these fields aren't made to feel like outsiders, I just believe that if the atmosphere surrounding these fields drew more women into STEM, there would be less of a boys club mentality, because there would be a better ratio of men to women. And the way to treat that, isn't by wearing different shirts, the shirt is just a symptom.
I mean really, do you think that the lack of women in STEM fields is because they heard that people in these fields were intolerant of women? Or because they'd been conditioned to believe that these weren't positions that a woman should be interested in? And when considering this, remember that in order to be successful in these fields, you really need to focus on them in high school.
That's not to say that women who are in these fields aren't made to feel like outsiders, I just believe that if the atmosphere surrounding these fields drew more women into STEM, there would be less of a boys club mentality, because there would be a better ratio of men to women. And the way to treat that, isn't by wearing different shirts, the shirt is just a symptom.
Pegosaurus
Banned
well well isn't this the most ridiculous thing i've seen in a long time
http://vintage50spinupgirls.blogspot.nl/2013/09/50s-pin-up-girls.html?m=1
Warning, 'sexist' material. I think. I dunno. Nobody has called it sexist for over a year, but with internet things can change in seconds.
Warning, 'sexist' material. I think. I dunno. Nobody has called it sexist for over a year, but with internet things can change in seconds.
He probably was more worried with completing a ten year project and making sure it wasn't all a waste. The dude apologized and changed shirts, carry on.
dead monkey uk
Member
Is it too late to comet on this story
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, people should focus less on stories like this and get the discussion back to actual issues like the indifference of certain job fields to the estrangement of women like in this situation here.
Higgins113
Banned
How sensitive do you have to be to get offended by a shirt. Do these people ever actually interact in the real world?
Masquerader
Member
I'm no expert, but if this contributes to a negative representation of women in STEM fields, then it's deserving of the controversy. Still, at least he did apologise, 'cause he was just wearing a shirt, and likely didn't know. Still one of the worst shirts I have ever seen, and by a long way.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
I sometimes wear metal bands shame tarps. Does that make me sexist?
I find it to be hilarious that it was a shirt that got him into trouble. From experience, it's mostly unwanted advances, sexual assault jokes and other embarrassing behavior that keeps STEM a boy's only club.
I find it to be hilarious that it was a shirt that got him into trouble. From experience, it's mostly unwanted advances, sexual assault jokes and other embarrassing behavior that keeps STEM a boy's only club.
Too bad for the woman who made the shirt and gave it to her friend, only for it to turn into a stupid circus side show, making everyone miserable. https://twitter.com/ellypriZeMaN
it's a shame, really. It's not the fact that she made it, not the fact that he likes it, it's the fact that he and everyone responsible for the broadcast of this mission didn't even realize how this shirt could be symbolic of how the science / tech sector still acts like a boys club sometimes.
He has since apologized - with teary eyes no less - because maybe it scared him that he didn't even realize how things like this innocent funky shirt create a relatively unwelcoming environment for women in his field.
i think the realization of "i am part of the problem and i didn't even mean to, but worse, i didn't even know i was" must have stung quite a bit.
T
Transhuman
Unconfirmed Member
If you're trying to imply that because a woman made the shirt it cannot possibly be an indicator of the passive and unmindful turning away of women in the industry for someone to have worn it while they were representing an industry with an under-representation of women, you are wrong.
There's kind of a difference.
Kim chose to have a picture taken of herself and was probably paid millions for it. The shirt is just a weird depiction of sexualized women who don't even exist.
Why? Because you say so? He had a shirt on that his friend designed. I doubt it went any further than that.
plasmawave
Banned
stufte
Member
It's amazing to me that people keep using the shirt as an example of why women don't go into the STEM field. As if women are so weak or unable that a shirt or something similar would keep them from their desired field. Give women more credit than that, ffs.
charlequin
Banned
Death threats? The only death threats I've seen any mention of in this story were the numerous ones that have been leveled at Rose Eveleth since she initially criticized him on twitter. If you search his twitter handle now you get a mix of people bitching about how he was criticized and people from the science community complimenting him for being a standup guy who can apologize when he made a mistake and a great scientist.
What constitutes a "shit storm" to you here, exactly? Is your position that people shouldn't comment about an issue like this on twitter or blogs or message boards because there's a chance that taken all together, many people being bothered or annoyed or offended by the same thing will be overwhelming?
I mean, again, there's absolutely no reason to hassle or bother this guy, either before or certainly now after the issue has been resolved to all reasonable people's satisfaction, but you're not actually talking about harassment here -- you're talking about people reacting in a visible way to an event purposely broadcast to the public. You can't apply a reasonable standard to that whereby everyone should just automatically keep quiet if something screwed up happens just to be extra-careful about it seeming like there's a "shit storm" online.
I mean, as all the gamergate idiocy and so many other recent issues have shown, there's a underlying issue of social violence in these online media channels that's bigger than any one individual blowup. But this, a case where someone who went on TV drew some pretty measured and contained criticism, isn't a particularly salient example.
Uh, yes? Outright hostility from men, either experienced directly by women who then quit, or simply heard about in advance leading women to never enter the field in the first place, is a huge factor in the dearth of women in STEM fields and anyone with even a passing familiarity with the issue is going to be aware of that.
I have never once heard this argument from someone who did so in the context of, at other times, pointing out and objecting to that supposed "actual sexism."
The shirt represents a very, very, very tiny piece of a larger picture. It adds up.
That said, the response has been way more damaging than the act of wearing the shirt. This was worth pulling him aside and calmly pointing it out to him at worst.
Liu Kang Baking A Pie
Member
I don't think it does. This is actually sexism, although a much, much more mild kind than actually working to keep women out of a field.
No harm was intended, but some harm was still done. That kind of shirt probably isn't meant for style. It's meant for straight guys to wear and other straight guys to appreciate. I don't think shirts like that should be illegal, but it's not a good idea to wear that when international eyes are turned toward you.
Forget about the woman who said the shirt "ruined the comet landing". An overreaction like that does not mean that this isn't a problem.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
There are surely unreasonable issues that have been brought up in the name of sexism, and they have surely devalued feminism in the mind of others. Might even be responsible for MRAs and other anti-feminists who mistakenly equate it with the whole of feminism.
I don't think this issue is one of those things... it's borderline relevant because of the women in STEM angle. But I don't think we all have to rapidly nod our heads with great fake concern for every single claim of sexism that is ever made.
charlequin
Banned
This is a complete strawman representation of the issue. Go back and read Mumei's post, it's right on the last page.
The issue isn't that a shirt, or a porn poster in the office, or a single sexist comment, or any other singular thing is the singular direct factor keeping women out of a given field; it's that when a systemic culture of exclusion exists (and a systemic culture of exclusion absolutely exists in science and technology), things that on their own might be relatively innocuous take on greater meaning since they represent the double standard where women's actions and behavior are relentlessly critiqued, while men's are allowed to veer far outside theoretical bounds of respectability before they draw any fire. (This particular double standard is pretty visibly on display in the differences between how people have been responding to Taylor's shirt vs. Rose Eveleth's brief initial tweets on the subject.)
You... understand that you're offering up pretty much a textbook victim-blaming argument here, right?
Wat?
Waaaaaat. So the shirt WAS a
So maybe he didn't even realise what he was grabbing when he picked up the shirt out of the "clean" basket and threw it on?
See, this is why you should never be your offices "Hawaiian shirt guy." Just wear solid colours and keep your head down.
yeah, but sadly, the internet doesn't know how to act in moderation. I rather have it overblown than ignored - because from the apology video, you could really tell that the scientist was sincerely sad about the message he involuntarily sent out.
But now him, and maybe others in his field are sensitized to little things like this. I can guarantee you that, while there's many people that are all "oh, big deal, how can women be offended so easily", there's a lot of men with empathy, who didn't know why they had so few female colleagues and are now evaluating some of their behaviour, maybe taking down that poster of some sexy Anime girl from their lab wall.
charlequin
Banned
Man, I am the office's Hawaiian shirt guy and I would never make a rookie mistake like this. Actually looking at what clothes you're wearing and thinking about whether they're appropriate for what you'll be doing at work that day is like entry-level having-a-job shit.
Based on following this on twitter, pretty much all of the important people who were bothered by this in the first place (i.e. Taylor's peers and colleagues in the sciences) were satisfied immediately with the apology and were glad for the opportunity to get back to talking about the mission. At this point the bigger factor keeping the discussion alive is the people who insist that it's offensive that he apologized at all.
Argh, don't you hate when your NASA clothes and your axe-throwing league's "cocktail lounge night" clothes get mixed up?!
His friend (here) made the shirt for him and then he wore it on his big day. There's sexism, there's "subtle" sexism, and then there's this. This is people unfairly jumping to wild conclusions about his character and intentions based off of a couple still images, Twitter comments from randos, and agenda-driven blog posts. Shaming this guy is not helping anybody's cause. It's making feminism into something petty.
charlequin
Banned
That's why my work shirts and my shirts with potentially offensive things on them have a neutral zone in the middle populated by my sports jerseys, my wedding suit, and my Octodad t-shirts. Organization is key to a happy, productive lifestyle!
If you read my posts in this thread you'll notice that the only things I ever say about his personal character are positive and that I don't think there's any reason to hold anything against him whatsoever given his apology, so, uh, I think you're a bit off-base here?
HalfBakedProphet
Member
why would a secret octopus wear octopus t-shirts? You're tipping your hand a bit too much IMO
stufte
Member
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/06/m...few-women-in-science.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
I've read what Mumei wrote, but this article is much more along the lines of the way I see it. This shirt is not the problem that is keeping women out of STEM, it's a much larger issue of devaluing women as math and science focused individuals. The way it is discouraged in girls in primary school. The "old boys club" mentality of "men do it better" and that women are only successful because of some unseen man that must have done the work for them. That is a much more realistic (and difficult) hurdle for women to jump. Men who wear cartoon women shirts or the like aren't the reason (IMHO) that women are kept out of STEM. At all. I'd be curious what Kathrin Altwegg had to say about this, tbh.
charlequin
Banned
Throw people off the scent!
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