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[Hari Seldon]

I just look at it like this.

It shouldn't be up to the customer to make sure the employee is getting paid the correct wage, its should be up to the employer to make sure the employee is paid the correct wage. Tipping should be an option if the customer wants to tip (and deems the server deserves a bit extra for better than average service), it should not be pretty much a requirement that the customer must do it (in order to make sure the server gets paid correctly).

Why? I don't understand the justification for why people think tipping is somehow bad.

- Employer pays less money
- Employee makes more money based on bootstraps
- The Customer is the one paying more money. But the customer can judge whether spending money on food + tips is economically worth it since going out to eat is ultimately an optional luxury expense.

I know that I have in the past wanted to go out to eat just because some restaurant is known to have attractive and flirtatious servers when I otherwise would not have bothered lol.

Edit:

Thinking about it more, I guess there are situations where the Employee might get screwed, such as the shitty chain restaurants such as Applebees, since they have a mountain of fuckhead MBAs working out ways to cut costs and fuck over everyone. A local nice Italian place though, that is definitely superior than making $8/hour working at McDs.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Only way to stop tipping is to do so federally, as in make some sort of law mandating that restaurant workers be paid in full by their employers.

I always tip, and I always tip well (since I'm a black guy, it's extra important that I not keep the stereotype going)...but I totally understand what this article is saying. We're not going to change the system by not tipping while it's the culture/what's expected, though.

i hate that man... it feels like even if the service i got wasn't as good as other people's service in the same restaurant from the same waiter, i have to tip well because of my race. i still tip but seriously... fuck tipping.

 

[entremet]

I tip well, but I agree is an assinine system.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The Slate article isn't even that well written. It mostly just argues that tipping is bad because the distribution is uneven, but then complains about the general solution to the problem, tip pooling, is bad, but fails to even justify that claim. The fact that Starbucks was giving non-exempt managers tips against the law has nothing to do with the premise of the article in the first place.

I think people want to eliminate the tip system because they don't like paying for it. In the end, the person who's "worse off" is probably the customer, who arguably pays more than the price increase would be otherwise. But couching that argument as a pro-employee argument is disingenuous at best.

 

[Mr. Patch]

i hate that man... it feels like even if the service i got wasn't as good as other people's service in the same restaurant from the same waiter, i have to tip well because of my race. i still tip but seriously... fuck tipping.

Fuck that noise. I tip based on the service I get. Bad servers will never get shit from me.

 

[The Cowboy]

Why? I don't understand the justification for why people think tipping is somehow bad.

I never said that tipping was bad, I said it should be an option if the customer wants to (and deems the service deserves it) and not a requirement (in order to make sure the employee is paid correctly). It should never ever be up to the customer to make sure the employee is paid correctly (that's the employers job), it should be option for the customer if they want to supplement the employees wage (not a requirement that they must to make sure they get adequate pay).

I think tipping is good as an option for a customer, but bad as a requirement from a customer.

 

[Dazzler]

Tipping in Canada is ridiculous. They make minimum wage (I worked retail for years at minimum wage and never got a single tip) so why should I be obligated to give extra on top of that?

It's creeping in to too many other aspects of life. Haircuts, cab rides - such a joke

 

[Kinky John]

I refuse to set foot on American soil until tipping is banned.

 

[foodtaster]

tipping is discriminatory and should be banned immediately. Michael Lynn from Cornell has already proven this. also, if you don't tip employees are paid minimum wage by their employer by state law. the 2.15/hr + tips has to be over minimum wage or the employer is federally obligated to meet the difference. Of course, in my time being a waiter, you can make 10/hr+ easily as a waiter/waitress.

I've had coworkers who provide incredibly great service, but have tattoos on their face. they barely get tips. this is actually how I know that you get minimum wage with or without tips. though the caveat is if you get minimum wage because your employer is forced to give them to you, you won't be working much longer.

 

[SnakeXs]

I refuse to set foot on American soil until tipping is banned.

As if this thread wasn't comical enough.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Tipping in Canada is ridiculous. They make minimum wage (I worked retail for years at minimum wage and never got a single tip) so why should I be obligated to give extra on top of that?

It's creeping in to too many other aspects of life. Haircuts, cab rides - such a joke

Because Employers have long shown a high level of enthusiasm for screwing their customers and a gratuity to a waiter by law (in my state at least, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was all of them) cannot be legally collected by anyone but gratuity receiving employees..

 

[The Faceless Master]

Fuck that noise. I tip based on the service I get. Bad servers will never get shit from me.

for real, from what i've observed, my standards for "good service" are significantly lower than many other people... i just don't want to be "that monday"

 

[crozier]

I'm all for banning tips completely at this point. It keeps me from ordering food to-go at most restaurants or having pizza delivered. Servers make obscene amounts of money for what they do.

There's a major downside, of course. Attractive people will find other ways to make money. Let's face it: people like attractive servers.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Tipping in Canada is ridiculous. They make minimum wage (I worked retail for years at minimum wage and never got a single tip) so why should I be obligated to give extra on top of that?

It's creeping in to too many other aspects of life. Haircuts, cab rides - such a joke

Tipping for hair cuts is one area where it makes a lot of sense, as you are tipping for future service. My uncle is a stylist at a very fancy salon, and he is regularly tipped sports tickets, and even gets tipped vacations at some of his customers villas in Tuscany. He has the personality of a talk show host though haha.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

It sort of blows my mind that people don't think servers should be tipped. Other things like tipping for a cup of coffee at a starbucks is silly, but if there is one thing that people should be paid based on service, its serving. I guess that's just the capitalist in me thinking that people would want to actually get ahead with harder work (and they do, I worked summers as a server in high school and got paid way more than minimum wage, probably 12-14 an hour).

 

[The Faceless Master]

It sort of blows my mind that people don't think servers should be tipped. Other things like tipping for a cup of coffee at a starbucks is silly, but if there is one thing that people should be paid based on service, its serving. I guess that's just the capitalist in me thinking that people would want to actually get ahead with harder work (and they do, I worked summers as a server in high school and got paid way more than minimum wage, probably 12-14 an hour).

but studies show that they're not actually paid based on service.

 

[OrangeYouGlad]

Tipping in Canada is ridiculous. They make minimum wage (I worked retail for years at minimum wage and never got a single tip) so why should I be obligated to give extra on top of that?

It's creeping in to too many other aspects of life. Haircuts, cab rides - such a joke

I agree, but just for the sake of full disclosure, there is a two tier minimum wage in most provinces. It's defined as "liquor servers", but most serving staff fall under it. Of course the lowest minimum you can get paid as a server in Canada is $8.75, which is a long ways from being $2 something. Makes me wonder why the expectation for tips has gone up to 20%, especially with our food prices being slightly higher.

 

[genjiZERO]

I think your experience is different from most people's, particularly in Europe. Not all of service can be attributed to economic incentivization because cultural norms have a lot to do with it as well.

Have you been anywhere in Europe or Mexico, and how long were you in the U.S. and at what kind of restaurants did you eat ? I studied abroad in Europe for 6 months, went to 10 to 15 countries during my trip, and I can honestly say the service was more lax in every one of them than in the U.S. And like I said, that's fine (especially when you don't have a tight schedule), but it doesn't equate to efficient service.

I've been to Italy, Germany and England and never experienced poor service (well except this one time in Sicily at a restaurant where the waiters were coked out of their minds). Service could be somewhat "slow", but it never seemed neglectful to me. At a minimum, service in the US doesn't seem to warrant anything special or additional.

I'm all for banning tips completely at this point. It keeps me from ordering food to-go at most restaurants or having pizza delivered. Servers make obscene amounts of money for what they do.

There's a major downside, of course. Attractive people will find other ways to make money. Let's face it: people like attractive servers.

I haven't had pizza delivered in over a decade now because I refuse to tip them. To add insult to injury all the major chains both charge you a delivery fee and expect you to tip on top of it (says so in the fine print).

 

[Angry Grimace]

I've been to Italy, Germany and England and never experienced poor service (well except this one time in Sicily at a restaurant where the waiters were coked out of their minds). Service could be somewhat "slow", but it never seemed neglectful to me. At a minimum, service in the US doesn't seem to warrant anything special or additional.

I was in Italy and France two weeks ago and beg to differ. Its not as neglectful as the worst stories will have you say, but the overall bill for eating out was still quite high and it wasn't even close to as good of service as I get pretty much everywhere in the US.

 

[shinobi602]

Fully agreed with the OP. Just pay them a flat rate for the work.

 

[Mudkips]

More of a pain than re-calculating it with every purchase conducted?

Yes. Advertising campaigns would be unable to list prices.

 

[genjiZERO]

I was in Italy and France two weeks ago and beg to differ. Its not as neglectful as the worst stories will have you say, but the overall bill for eating out was still quite high and it wasn't even close to as good of service as I get pretty much everywhere in the US.

Reasonable minds can disagree. I'd still rather have a no tipping culture even if it meant European like service (whatever that means). Honestly, the only thing that bothered me about restaurants (in Italy in particular) are the hidden charges. One place brought us water, bread and limoncello (without even asking), and then charged us (in addition to the cover charge) for all of it. Most places weren't like that, but a few would charge little extras here and there.

 

[Fularu]

Waiters have become terribly entitled.

I get angry looks when I tip 18% now

 

[gohepcat]

What the fuck people.

You get to pay someone DIRECTLY for their service. It's awesome. You get to put money directly into the pocket of someone waiting on you.

If you can't afford to tip, you can not afford to eat at a restaurant in the US. This is how we do it here. It's an awesome custom that allows us to support hard working people with really good money.

It's what?... 2 bucks on a ten dollar meal at a diner? 4 bucks at a semi-decent restaurant for a 20 dollar meal? or 10 bucks at a really nice place?

Go to fucking McDonalds if you don't like it.

 

[Casimir]

tipping is discriminatory and should be banned immediately. Michael Lynn from Cornell has already proven this. also, if you don't tip employees are paid minimum wage by their employer by state law. the 2.15/hr + tips has to be over minimum wage or the employer is federally obligated to meet the difference. Of course, in my time being a waiter, you can make 10/hr+ easily as a waiter/waitress.

I've had coworkers who provide incredibly great service, but have tattoos on their face. they barely get tips. this is actually how I know that you get minimum wage with or without tips. though the caveat is if you get minimum wage because your employer is forced to give them to you, you won't be working much longer.

So what your saying is that people who knowingly make poor life choices, after having ample prior evidence of the impending consequences, have to live with the consequences of their actions?

Whats the problem here exactly?

but studies show that they're not actually paid based on service.

I'm going to go ahead and guess those studies only showed a general pattern and not a overbearing majority.

Fully agreed with the OP. Just pay them a flat rate for the work.

Flat rate laws would unnecessarily punish everyone just for the sake of the minority. Most wait staff either make decent (enough) or greatly benefit from the advantages of tip based work. The correct approach would be to raise the minimum pay rate to eliminate the exploitation while still allowing the positive aspects of tip based pay to thrive.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Reasonable minds can disagree. I'd still rather have a no tipping culture even if it meant European like service (whatever that means). Honestly, the only thing that bothered me about restaurants (in Italy in particular) are the hidden charges. One place brought us water, bread and limoncello (without even asking), and then charged us (in addition to the cover charge) for all of it. Most places weren't like that, but a few would charge little extras here and there.

But again, I don't understand the rationale for preferring a no-tipping culture. As was said above, I like putting money directly in the employees hands and not the restaurant.

 

[Fularu]

What the fuck people.

You get to pay someone DIRECTLY for their service. It's awesome. You get to put money directly into the pocket of someone waiting on you.

If you can't afford to tip, you can not afford to eat at a restaurant in the US. This is how we do it here. It's an awesome custom that allows us to support hard working people with really good money.

It's what?... 2 bucks on a ten dollar meal at a diner? 4 bucks at a semi-decent restaurant for a 20 dollar meal? or 10 bucks at a really nice place?

Go to fucking McDonalds if you don't like it.

Please enlighten me as to why I should tip someone 10$ for opening a 50$ wine bottle or 20$ for opening a 100$ one?

Service is the same, what justifies the difference? And please, no "skills" involved in either actions

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

Please enlighten me as to why I should tip someone 10$ for opening a 50$ wine bottle or 20$ for opening a 100$ one?

Service is the same, what justifies the difference? And please, no "skills" involved in either actions

Who said you had to do that? If you go to a restaurant just to buy an expensive bottle of wine, you're doing it wrong. If it's added to your food, then tip a lower percentage for the wine portion of the check. Is it that hard to figure out a reasonable tip?

 

[Junior Mint]

Tipping would be good if it were actually used as intended. Tipping is pretty much expected now and it's even worse in Canada because they already make minimum wage (most places, $1-2 above it) and still expect 15+% tips.

My feelings are:
1. I absolutely DESPISE leaving tips when I'm getting bare minimum service (i.e. bring food/bill to table, occasionally fill water). But I am compelled to leave at least 10% because social norms. Ugh.

2. I love leaving tips when someone goes out of their way to make my experience the best it could be. Even better when it's a cheap restaurant that does this because it makes me feel like they care about their customers despite being a lower-end place.

I've been tipping my hair stylist 50% because they only charged $12 and gave me hair washes for free, great service, and they stay open late for me if I decide to head there after work. Hell, I cut my hair after a week cause I wanted it to look good before I went for vacation and they insisted that I not pay for it because I just cut my hair the week before. I have no problem leaving huge tips when I get this level of service.

 

[Hari Seldon]

Please enlighten me as to why I should tip someone 10$ for opening a 50$ wine bottle or 20$ for opening a 100$ one?

Service is the same, what justifies the difference? And please, no "skills" involved in either actions

Because you are buying a $100 bottle of wine. If you want to be a baller then don't whine about the cost. This is optional luxury expenditures. We might as well have a thread of people whining about the maintenance costs on their BMWs.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Who said you had to do that? If you go to a restaurant just to buy an expensive bottle of wine, you're doing it wrong. If it's added to your food, then tip a lower percentage for the wine portion of the check. Is it that hard to figure out a reasonable tip?

Corkage fees aren't gratuities either, they're charged by the restaurant.

 

[ultron87]

Please enlighten me as to why I should tip someone 10$ for opening a 50$ wine bottle or 20$ for opening a 100$ one?

Service is the same, what justifies the difference? And please, no "skills" involved in either actions

It actually seems reasonable to tip less on that particular part of the bill. But if we go with the "eliminate tips and jack up prices plan" it'll become a hundred and twenty dollar bottle of wine.

 

[entremet]

What do you all think of tip jars?

 

[malfcn]

Tips based on bill amount is kind of silly to me.

Mozzarella sticks at place A is $20
Mozzarella sticks at place B is $5

If both places are equal, why should one server get a $4 tip and the other place get a $1 tip? Just because they charge more at one place?

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

Tips based on bill amount is kind of silly to me.

Mozzarella sticks at place A is $20
Mozzarella sticks at place B is $5

If both places are equal, why should one server get a $4 tip and the other place get a $1 tip? Just because they charge more at one place?

Once again, you have to take the scope of the service you are receiving into account. You're not going to just buy a mozzarella appetizer if you're going to a nice place. You're going to a nice place because the food is a step up, the service is a step up and the atmosphere is a step up. You're tipping for all of those things. In other words, you realize the place has higher standards, so your tips have to reflect that. Which is good, because when you're spending more money you want competent servers that can help you get exactly what you want, and they make more money because of it.

 

[andthebeatgoeson]

http://www.minimum-wage.org/florida-tipped-employee-minimum-wage/

Florida is doing it right?

 

[Fularu]

Who said you had to do that? If you go to a restaurant just to buy an expensive bottle of wine, you're doing it wrong. If it's added to your food, then tip a lower percentage for the wine portion of the check. Is it that hard to figure out a reasonable tip?

It isn't about beeing hard or not, it's about expectations VS real work.

You are expected to pay a 20% tip, it's hardly optional, it's borderline mandatory.

The service is no different between a 50$ plate and a 10$ one but in one instance you're expected to pay more "just because".

My belief is that the tip should be a flat value that depends on the real work provided.

Probably 20-25% of a 25$ meal (so 5 to 6$, no matter the final asking price)

 

[Angry Grimace]

Tips based on bill amount is kind of silly to me.

Mozzarella sticks at place A is $20
Mozzarella sticks at place B is $5

If both places are equal, why should one server get a $4 tip and the other place get a $1 tip? Just because they charge more at one place?

Generally speaking, the Mozzarella Sticks at Place A won't be equivalent to the Sticks at Place B. Moreover, even if they were being paid a flatwage, the servers from Place A and Place B wouldn't get the same wage. Effort and skill aren't even remotely the sole determinators of wage-scales, and that's true everywhere.

 

[Fularu]

Generally speaking, the Mozzarella Sticks at Place A won't be equivalent to the Sticks at Place B. Moreover, even if they were being paid a flatwage, the servers from Place A and Place B wouldn't get the same wage. Effort and skill aren't even remotely the sole determinators of wage-scales, and that's true everywhere.

The 20$ waiter wouldn't be making 4 times the pay of the 5$ one

Not even close, that argument doesn't hold

 

[genjiZERO]

But again, I don't understand the rationale for preferring a no-tipping culture. As was said above, I like putting money directly in the employees hands and not the restaurant.

Well we could tease apart the economic issues all day, but at a minimum tipping has both expanded percentage-wise and into other fields.

Tipping was 15%, but now the cultural standard is 20% even though service hasn't gotten any better. Also, in the past, you only tipped pre-tax and optionally on alcohol, but I've heard people express the belief that you are supposed to tip on the whole amount.

Also, there's an issue of whether you should tip if it's a family run restaurant where the family is the entire staff? Surely you are just paying them extra. What about the ethics of restaurants who pay minimum wage and keep the tips? My brother worked at one of those, and they are more common than you think. It's simply an additional fee.

Why should you tip pizza delivery, or StarBucks employees, or the Chinese take-out? They aren't "serving" you.

And it's also worked its way into other fields. Barbers I can understand. But why cab drivers or cleaning staff at a hotel?

So I think it's just too inconsistent, sometimes absurd, and, at the end of the day, more expensive than it would be without the system.

 

[jamesinclair]

Generally speaking, the Mozzarella Sticks at Place A won't be equivalent to the Sticks at Place B. Moreover, even if they were being paid a flatwage, the servers from Place A and Place B wouldn't get the same wage. Effort and skill aren't even remotely the sole determinators of wage-scales, and that's true everywhere.

Bs.

The mozzarella sticks you find anywhere all come from the same supplier.

 

[PanicFreak]

Please enlighten me as to why I should tip someone 10$ for opening a 50$ wine bottle or 20$ for opening a 100$ one?

Service is the same, what justifies the difference? And please, no "skills" involved in either actions

Because if you are a big baller at the restaurant, ordering $100 bottles of wine, you should pay the tip too. It doesn't take $20 in skill to open the bottle of wine but you are compensating them for their knowledge of the wine list.

Odds are, they told you how it tastes and what it would be best paired with.

 

[AllIsOneIsNone]

It isn't about beeing hard or not, it's about expectations VS real work.

You are expected to pay a 20% tip, it's hardly optional, it's borderline mandatory.

The service is no different between a 50$ plate and a 10$ one but in one instance you're expected to pay more "just because".

My belief is that the tip should be a flat value that depends on the real work provided.

Probably 20-25% of a 25$ meal (so 5 to 6$, no matter the final asking price)

Work isn't only time though; if you go to a nice restaurant a server should be able to make specific wine/food recommendations, give you all the specials, make sure you get exactly what you want. You have to pay for higher standards. The food materials used at a nice restaurant, for example, may not be much more expensive than the materials used at a shitty restaurant. However, you may pay 3 to 4 times as much because of the quality in which it is presented, and of course the taste. It's the same thing as that; when you go to a fancy restaurant, everything is exponentiated cost wise, because people take it much more seriously and have little room for error. If you think that's crazy, you probably shouldn't be eating at fancy restaurants.

 

[gohepcat]

What do you all think of tip jars?

Enjoy throwing my change in them. Usually people behind the counters put up with a ton of crap. I'm glad to make their lives a little easier with some spare change.

Easy way to give money directly to low end workers. It costs me very little and they can make good cash from it.

 

[PanicFreak]

The 20$ waiter wouldn't be making 4 times the pay of the 5$ one

Not even close, that argument doesn't hold

Nothing is stopping you from giving the $5 waiter four times the standard tip...

 

[Angry Grimace]

Bs.

The mozzarella sticks you find anywhere all come from the same supplier.

They also don't cost $20 anywhere.

The 20$ waiter wouldn't be making 4 times the pay of the 5$ one

Not even close, that argument doesn't hold

I don't get your point. Its a generalization; mozarella sticks don't cost $20. Moreover, places with $5 mozarella sticks have a lot more people coming through them because people can't afford $20 mozzarella sticks. A place that serves $20 appetizers probably has to hold tables all night. The standards are higher at more expensive restaurants, so yes, people get paid more. Managers don't necessarily work harder than the grunts, but they do get paid four times what the grunts get paid. Welcome to every job ever in the history of the world.

 

[Junior Mint]

The 20$ waiter wouldn't be making 4 times the pay of the 5$ one

Not even close, that argument doesn't hold

I would say the $20 waiter is more likely to be very experienced (possibly a lifer) and there's probably more expectation of him to invest in proper grooming/looks, have deeper knowledge in foods and particularly wines, and to have (or conform to) the personalities of the clientele. Or at least that's what I'd expect.

 

[gohepcat]

Well we could tease apart the economic issues all day, but at a minimum tipping has both expanded percentage-wise and into other fields.

Tipping was 15%, but now the cultural standard is 20% even though service hasn't gotten any better. Also, in the past, you only tipped pre-tax and optionally on alcohol, but I've heard people express the belief that you are supposed to tip on the whole amount.

Also, there's an issue of whether you should tip if it's a family run restaurant where the family is the entire staff? Surely you are just paying them extra. What about the ethics of restaurants who pay minimum wage and keep the tips? My brother worked at one of those, and they are more common than you think. It's simply an additional fee.

Why should you tip pizza delivery, or StarBucks employees, or the Chinese take-out? They aren't "serving" you.

.

...more expensive for you....for you. Not for the people who are receiving the cash.

Why should you tip the pizza guy? He drove food to your fucking house while you sat around in your fucking skivvies. You could have driven to the place yourself to pick it up if you are too cheap to pay.

 

[crozier]

I would say the $20 waiter is more likely to be very experienced (possibly a lifer) and there's probably more expectation of him to invest in proper grooming/looks, have deeper knowledge in foods and particularly wines, and to have (or conform to) the personalities of the clientele. Or at least that's what I'd expect.

Lifer? I'd say chances are excellent that they're in their 20's and incredibly attractive.

 

[PanicFreak]

...more expensive for you....for you. Not for the people who are receiving the cash.

Why should you tip the pizza guy? He drove food to your fucking house while you sat around in your fucking skivvies. You could have driven to the place yourself to pick it up if you are too cheap to pay.

Add to the fact that they are putting wear and tear on a vehicle that they likely own or pay for so that he can sit around in his fucking skivvies and wait for pizza.