Slate: Here's Why Tipping Should Be Banned
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
- Start date
- Status
No, it's the hidden charge. I shouldn't have to pay more than the asked price. Hidden charges are illegal everywhere, don't see why that wouldn't be the case here.
In France, it's illegal to advertise a price without including taxes (and that includes services) because it's missleading. Same shit applies there.
Also you should learn to read as I've always tipped beyond what's expected. Doesn't prevent me from thinking that it's a stupid "custom" and that hinders my will to go to restaurants since I don't like enabling what I believe is a terrible system.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Except this entire argument is invalidated by the simple point that you don't have to pay the tip though. You feeling bad if you don't isn't the same thing as a legal obligation.
PanicFreak
Member
I get it, you pay the company for your product or service and that's where your transaction ends. However, the money keeps on flowing my friend and that's what I'm talking about.
Barring bad service, if it's customary to tip and you don't it is both cheap and in poor taste.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm very confused why you keep citing Agency Law. What does that have to do with tips?
I don't feel bad either way (paying or not paying). The tip is hardly optional when it's expected. You can't say "do what you want" when everyone expects you to pay up and compensate for their "shitty" wages. To the point of shaming you as has been seen on several occasions on gaf (or this very thread, hence why the "cheap" comments if not to shame said "non tipper"?)
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You absolutely can. The argument in the OP is premised partially on the idea that people don't. It comes back to the same point; if your only problem is that its not listed, but you believe its mandatory, your problem is terminology. It isn't the same argument as "let's eliminate tipping."
Its a similar point with corkage: you aren't required to tip on parts of the bill you don't want to tip on because the tipping system allows you to exercise independent judgment on what to tip on. You're just running on the assumption some unnamed person will get mad at you if you don't flat 20% tip.
You can't be for better wages for the employees AND for eliminating tips at the same time. They are incompatible.
foodtaster
Banned
Dont be silly. If you frequent a place that accepts tips graciously, you more or less have to tip.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No, you don't, actually. Moreover, its beside the point: the only legitimate argument people are making in favor of eliminating tips is "not wanting to pay them" and people won't even cop to making the claim. They just keep on trucking with the "living wage" argument.
foodtaster
Banned
Yes you do. If the place has three employees and you are known for not tipping you will receive inferior service, or worse. There are implicit pressures to tip. Of course you don't have to tip and you're not forced to. Just like you're not really FORCED to do anything in this world. Stop being silly. Also, the fact that tips are discriminatory by nature are enough reason for them to be eliminated. See my other post.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That isn't a requirement, unless you have a different definition of "requirement" than the dictionary and every reasonable person has.
You are making a statement which is straight up false on its face. There are plenty of people that simply don't tip. Ask a server instead of just pretending like you know; if it was required, everyone would do it. The OP article is partially premised on the fact that people don't.
foodtaster
Banned
Of course there are plenty of people who don't tip, lol. I never said it was required, I just said there are pressures that make people tip. Pressures that if were nonexistent would remove the pressure (no pun intended) of tipping for the people who do tip. This would result is most people not tipping. People don't tip employees in situations where tipping isn't the norm, that is pretty much definitive proof.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
You can't acknowledge that people don't tip and simultaneously argue its a requirement. Its patently absurd.
ScottSullivan
Member
I'm a part time waiter, and I don't like it when someone has to "get my attention" because it's either:
A: Very rude when a customer is snapping at me or waving at me from across the room
B: I feel like im not helping someone out enough if they have to go out of their way and stop enjoying their meal to flag me down
foodtaster
Banned
I'm not arguing it's a requirement? When did I say that? I'm arguing that some people feel that they have to tip.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
.
(emphasis in original)
You're either arguing two things here. One, the most obvious interpretation, is that its mandatory to tip. This is wrong as stated. If you're simply arguing that there's pressure to tip, the statement has basically nothing to do with the conversation it entered into considering the context.
foodtaster
Banned
Yes you more or less have to tip because of the [implicit pressures]. I never said it was a requirement, though I will say that I agree with you and I didn't make myself very clear. I'm glad we're in agreement though.
Junior Mint
Member
I was wondering how long it'd take before the "it's not mandatory to tip" arguments started coming out. Despite what you believe, it pretty much is mandatory to tip now because of societal pressure. Tipping has gone from "above and beyond" to simply doing your job.
Well, I have company over now, so I can't get into it! But at a minimum it makes the system simpler. You never have to think about who you have to tip and how much and on what. As this thread has illuminated no one does the same thing.
See below
I know, but that's not how business relationships are perceived by "business professionals". Whenever you buy something (even food at a restaurant) you are in a contract negotiation - a negotiation between you and the owner. It is never between you and the employee. So sure, you "pay their wages" because you are paying the owner. But that's not how business relationships are transacted. I think a lot of non business/law people don't think of these things this way, but if you do it makes interactions much simpler.
Jesus dude lighten up I just wanted another beer.
Well it's more efficient, but I'm not at all sure it's more fair. Just for starters, waiting tables/tending bar is basically the last occupation in the United States that someone without a college degree can rely on to create a livable wage. I am 99% confident that this would go away if we took the wage payments out of the hands of the customer and put it back in the hands of executives.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Making it easier is a super marginal benefit. The major benefit is lowering the consumer's cost at the expense of the waiters overall wages, which can already be accomplished under the current system by tipping the waiters less. The only benefit you can't already accomplish is feeling better about yourself paying less and waiters being paid less.
I don't think the legal argument is helping. Its just injecting jargon that deflects from the point. I'm simply not seeing the connection between vicarious liability of employers to tipping waiters.
Devolution
Member
C: Sometimes we notice you're swamped and just want the check so we can be one less table for you to worry about.
This is 100% accurate.
Yep. We need to stop it with the ability for some jobs to be second-class re: wage laws.
I'll tip at places that use it, but I avoid them whenever possible until we modernize.
Do the trades not exist where you live?
The local sheetmetal guild will train you up and have you a job fairly quick.
It would really just change the prices on the menu to reflect reality. Even if our costs are the same, if I pay my employees full wage and someone else is using tips to hide costs, it'll look like my prices are higher, even if they end up cheaper at the end of the tab.
I'll tip at places that use it, but I avoid them whenever possible until we modernize.
Do the trades not exist where you live?
The local sheetmetal guild will train you up and have you a job fairly quick.
It would really just change the prices on the menu to reflect reality. Even if our costs are the same, if I pay my employees full wage and someone else is using tips to hide costs, it'll look like my prices are higher, even if they end up cheaper at the end of the tab.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Except employers wouldn't pay employees higher or even similar wages in a flat earning system.
Let the market dictate how much a waiter is supposed to earn.
Too little? People won't work
Weird how it works for every country but somehow, for the US and Canada, it wouldn't.
They would, because they wouldn't be able to cheat waiters out of their wages. And they do it often enough. Is a waiter living paycheck to paycheck going to report it, or go into work the next day and hope to make enough tips to make up for the loss?
And if you don't think they're earning enough when they're paid the same wage as every other job in this country... raise the minimum wage. I think it should be raised myself. The existing system screws the vast majority of waiters in favor of both the employer and the customer.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
People work on shitty salaries all the time doing far harder work than waiting tables. There's simply no reason that employers would do this because employers never do this.
I don't get why you think with like 8% unemployment that "people won't work" for less wages. Actually, they will.
Waiters already get minimum wage as a floor and almost all of them earn well in excess of it. There's simply no way you could eliminate the tipping system and keep wages for waitstaff from plummetting. I have no clue what you're even saying about "Cheating" waiters out of their wages. I have no idea what that's even coming from.
Spring-Loaded
Member
The takeaway from this is to not be a waiter. Have tips, then you're reliant upon the "generosity" of strangers. Get paid an actual salary, risk minimum wage for waiters be reduced
Also, 35 percent, minimum, or you're an asshole.
Also, 35 percent, minimum, or you're an asshole.
ScottSullivan
Member
Doesn't France pay a VAT tax on everything? That's about as much of a hidden ass charge as I can think of.
DjangoReinhardt
Thinks he should have been the one to kill Batman's parents.
Every other country has solved this riddle as has every other industry in the U.S. Will there be winners and losers if the system changes? Sure. I think that's an acceptable consequence of getting rid of a system that relies on a combination of implicit threats, a purposeful lack of transparency, and social pressure to artificially inflate the wages of this particular unskilled, non-dangerous occupation.
If the tipping system is more fair or provides more net social utility than the alternative, why aren't more countries using it?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I could at least buy the argument if people would couch it as "waiters are overpaid and consumers have to foot the cost," but no one wants to say it, so they just pretend its about livable wages. The anti-tip argument is an argument for wage reduction because common sense dictates there's no incentive for employers to pay commensurate wages in a non-tip wage.
VAT is the same as your state and federal taxes
Except it'S not shown on your receipt, it's known to exist and its value is commoin knowledge (19.6% or 20.6 if they actually raised it)
The TVA exists as a way to equalize taxing between the rich and the poor (but that's a completely different topic).
The hidden charge, here, is having to pay directly your "Waiter" for a job he'S already beeing paid for.
I thoroughly believe that waiters are overpaid thanks to the tipping culture and that there'S 0 reasons for me to foot that bill, especially when the single argument is that "I'm helping the little guy"
I used to work for a restaurant in an up market retail chain in the UK and we were told to never accept tips from customers.
On the other hand when I go out for meals I sometimes leave the change on the tip plate although I never tip when they hand you the card reader, I find that a bit too in your face.
Also have a pet peeve at restaurants when they're told to draw smiley faces on the receipt and their name... i never tip those people.
On the other hand when I go out for meals I sometimes leave the change on the tip plate although I never tip when they hand you the card reader, I find that a bit too in your face.
Also have a pet peeve at restaurants when they're told to draw smiley faces on the receipt and their name... i never tip those people.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
We don't actually have card readers here though because chip-and-pins don't exist here in any real sense. Giving tips is going to get really awkward when the server has to stand over you and watch exactly what you write.
How has every other industry in the US "solved" this? I honestly don't understand what you mean.
Again, waiting tables/bartending is by far the most common job in the US for people who don't have a college degree. If by "Solved" you mean "Completely eliminated every other option," then yes, I agree.
Other countries solve it through higher minimum wages or more generous social programs. If those appear out of thin air, then sure, I'm happy to discuss the topic.
They do exist -- and this is a fair point -- but they are much less common than they used to be. Two major criticisms:
1) Unions are under heavy attack in the US and these jobs are far less common than they used to be. Industrial plant work wages are not nearly as good outside of unions.
2) This is much less suitable for a woman. Not impossible, of course, but it frequently means putting up with a lot of sexism, among other problems.
If unions make a bounce back and more high paying manual labor jobs appear in the US market, by all means, I'll retract my criticism. As it stands, though, jobs with low education requirements but livable pay are dwindling and the inequality in the US is rapidly rising.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Part of the problem is institutional, in which its pretty common to push college on every student regardless of aptitude and the lack of skills imparted in undergraduate education. College has little practical benefit for most people who don't have longer term plans (i.e. you exit college with little to no appreciable work skills unless you're entering into a field that typically requires even more education).
I really wish the trades would make a comeback because you know, there's actual skills involved in them that people can learn to make a living. We need to stop telling everyone these are disreputable jobs.
But it's not just waiters. It's a culture of entitled tipping that extends to jobs that are clearly making minimum wage like pizza delivery, barristas, barbers, cab drivers, and cleaning staff to name a few. Who is next?
I guess I just don't get the point of tipping. It's moved from being a gratuity - something extra for good service rendered - to a cultural requirement you're an asshole if you don't participate in. And honestly, you're in the minority. If you weren't responding to nearly every detractor it would be a very one-sided issue.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Well that's because nearly every detractor except Fularu has little to no coherent reasoning why it shouldn't exist. I don't think "its annoying" or "it requires work on my end" is a viable reason to eliminate the system. I also don't see how the cultural pressure means the system is somehow broken. What you're giving is a slippery slope, which isn't necessarily valid either.
Tipping is not so bad if the tip amount is standardized. Otherwise, expectations can get out of whack. For example, the waiters might start expecting more from me because I bought an expensive new jacket, or one waiter in particular might start expecting more, or the waiters might expect more because of a preconceived notion they have about my race being "cheap" which I have to overcompensate for. If I keep giving 15%, they very well might start giving me shitty service or food. That is patently unfair.
And if tipping is standardized, it's meaningless. It may as well be absorbed into the price and given back to the waiters in their wages.
Dark Octave
Banned
I feel restaurants should pay better regardless of what the tip take home is. "You make enough money in tips" is a pretty shitty excuse to skimp on properly paying someone for their services.
But ultimately for me, the customer, I would love to see tipping abolished all together, so I guess both the restaurant owners and the wait staff would hate me. Just my opinions on it.
captmorgan
Banned
I`m still failing to see what the difference is between tipping 15% or paying 15% more for food...at the end isn`t the total on the bill the same?
Just out of curiosity how much is this fair wage people keep pointing at? When I was a server at Boston pizza, you would have had to have offered me something between 18-25 an hour for me to even think about giving up tips. If I had an amazing set of tits you would have to double or triple that amount.
One night this amazing red head worked about 5 hours during the Calgary stamped and made over $1400 in tips. I don`t think she would go for a buck or two over min wage.
Just out of curiosity how much is this fair wage people keep pointing at? When I was a server at Boston pizza, you would have had to have offered me something between 18-25 an hour for me to even think about giving up tips. If I had an amazing set of tits you would have to double or triple that amount.
One night this amazing red head worked about 5 hours during the Calgary stamped and made over $1400 in tips. I don`t think she would go for a buck or two over min wage.
I've lived in numerous countries that did not have any tipping culture whatsoever. I still got my food, the waiters/waitresses still survived, and the sky did not fall.
Get rid of this ridiculous custom. You can save your tips for extraordinary service rather than tipping 15% of your meal cost to someone who gives you -- at most -- five minutes of service (and usually close to two or three).
Get rid of this ridiculous custom. You can save your tips for extraordinary service rather than tipping 15% of your meal cost to someone who gives you -- at most -- five minutes of service (and usually close to two or three).
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The total on the bill isn't the same, but the restaurant will profit more and the servers will make less. I see no reason why restaurants would offer servers 18-25 an hour given that similarly skilled positions pay half that. By law in every state I'm aware of, tips are the property of the employees.
poppabk
Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
I thought the race discrimination thing was interesting, and a pretty good reason to do away with tipping.
- Status