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[Neoxon]

Seriously? The community would go in a riot if Diddy Kong got cut. It's bad enough that Donkey Kong got treated as badly as it did this game, imagine if it lost its second most important character. Along with cutting the nineteen other characters on the list and you're talking losing a significant amount of sales for the game. If Diddy Kong was cut I definitely would not buy Smash 6 (which I'm likely already not going to do considering Smash 3DS & Wii U mostly satisfies my need for Smash).

While sure, I'd buy Smash 5 regardless, cutting Diddy would be a major blow to the roster. And seeing as Smash 4 has mostly failed to attract the Melee base for a gigantic competitive scene (yes, its scene is pretty good, but it's playing second-fiddle to Melee for a reason), I'll probably hope for a more Melee-esque game from Smash 5.

And why is everyone calling the next Smash game Smash 6?

 

[Javier]

While sure, I'd buy Smash 5 regardless, cutting Diddy would be a major blow to the roster. And seeing as Smash 4 has mostly failed to attract the Melee base for a gigantic competitive scene (yes, its scene is pretty good, but it's playing second-fiddle to Melee for a reason), I'll probably hope for a more Melee-esque game from Smash 5.

And why is everyone calling the next Smash game Smash 6?

Sakurai considers Smash 3DS and Wii U to be Smash 4 and 5, respectively.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Sakurai considers Smash 3DS and Wii U to be Smash 4 and 5, respectively.

I consider Sakurai to make incredibly questionable statements at times.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Though unless they plan to iterate on the current game forever, at some point the bloat has to be cut in order for any substantial overhauls to be made. And while it's true that a large part of Smash's appeal comes from its iconic cast; a significant amount of the roster don't really have widespread popularity - if ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt Duo, Palutena, Ike, Robin, Lucina, Dark Pit, Olimar, Falco, Shulk, Dr. Mario, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Toon Link, Lucas, Meta Knight, Little Mac and Zero Suit Samus were cut; nobody would be particularly bothered outside of a few bitter internet mouth-breathers who'd buy the game anyway.

I don't usually react to people in this thread having bad opinions

Spoiler

(I'd be reacting to posts all day and night.)

But don't go around calling people shit like mouth-breathers, it lowers the level of discourse so much.

 

[IntelliHeath]

And why is everyone calling the next Smash game Smash 6?

http://kotaku.com/an-in-depth-chat-with-the-genius-behind-super-smash-bro-530744390

Sakurai: No, actually, there was never any consideration to having him in previous games, and if you think about it, there hasn't been really a precedent for third-party characters joining other than very special cases like Sonic, during the last game. It's something that wasn't even possible. We're now going into versions four and five within the series—this is only something that's now possible.

Kotaku: When you say four and five, do you mean the 3DS and Wii U versions? Those are separate?

Sakurai: Yeah, exactly.

That's why I went with Next Gen Smash instead of using numbered because it's too confusing for some people.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Duck Hunt Dog get cut? Are u mad? If they've let R.O.B. in two games and cut DHD after one I'll be pissed.

 

[L Thammy]

At some point a fighting game can have too many characters in it right? Like I know there is an appeal in a having a character select screen with a million faces on it but for the sake of gameplay, balancing, competition, etc. there has to be a breaking point no?

If I recall correctly, Sakurai's hinted at this before. Before Smash 4 came out, he was talking about how a new sequel couldn't rely on additional characters or something like that, and a lot of people took it to mean that there weren't going to be any new playable characters at all. Yet, funny enough, the amount of new playable characters is around the same as Brawl's.

I suspect that this less of an issue with modern systems. They can slack on the balance a bit at first and fix it later. The community's findings are inevitably going to be better than their own, so why not rely on that? And they don't need to have huge roster updates every game if they can continue to add characters via DLC. They can focus on mechanics and features instead.

I also don't think that the roster will ever be significantly reduced, if just because there's nostalgia value attached to the characters. It's similar to the Street Fighter III situation: even if Capcom wants to remove Ryu and Ken and start fresh, it isn't going to happen.

 

[I'M FINISHED!]

Though unless they plan to iterate on the current game forever, at some point the bloat has to be cut in order for any substantial overhauls to be made. And while it's true that a large part of Smash's appeal comes from its iconic cast; a significant amount of the roster don't really have widespread popularity - if ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt Duo, Palutena, Ike, Robin, Lucina, Dark Pit, Olimar, Falco, Shulk, Dr. Mario, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Toon Link, Lucas, Meta Knight, Little Mac and Zero Suit Samus were cut; nobody would be particularly bothered outside of a few bitter internet mouth-breathers who'd buy the game anyway.

I know plenty of people, people that wouldn't post in a video game forum type of people, that would be disappointed if anyone got cut. I know non-enthusiasts that are still upset about the Ice Climbers being gone.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I can't imagine there will be massive cuts in this series ever. Unless there is just some strange transition in the minds of Sakurai or whoever commands Smash going in the future.

Back in the Melee days it seemed like people were willing and happy to cut people like Ice Climbers and G&W. Now though only the lowest of low lifes actually want that as every fan now has voice they can use to riot in the internet streets.

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHj3a06C7A

Ride the waves of hype! Vote Dixie Kong!

 

[dangeraaron10]

Though unless they plan to iterate on the current game forever, at some point the bloat has to be cut in order for any substantial overhauls to be made. And while it's true that a large part of Smash's appeal comes from its iconic cast; a significant amount of the roster don't really have widespread popularity - if ROB, Mr. Game & Watch, Wii Fit Trainer, Duck Hunt Duo, Palutena, Ike, Robin, Lucina, Dark Pit, Olimar, Falco, Shulk, Dr. Mario, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Toon Link, Lucas, Meta Knight, Little Mac and Zero Suit Samus were cut; nobody would be particularly bothered outside of a few bitter internet mouth-breathers who'd buy the game anyway.

Why is it suddenly cool to cut characters? People got upset over the loss of Lucas and he's just a (heavily) modified Ness from a game that didn't release outside of Japan. Imagine cutting even half of the characters there. Smash thrives on characters. Not stages, or music, or trophies, but characters. And once someone gets into Smash, their relevance outside the game is null. Once a Smasher, always a Smasher. Just look at Roy! People want him back and there's already 3 different straight up sword wielders from Fire Emblem (I don't count Robin because s/he uses magic AND IS ACTUALLY DISTINCTIVE). Seriously, I hope Robin sticks around on the merit that s/he will likely be the only FE character that's a mage.

 

[I'M FINISHED!]

One cut in particular was pretty solid.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

One cut in particular was pretty solid.

Heheheh.

 

[L Thammy]

One cut in particular was pretty solid.

That one took me a minute.

 

[Neoxon]

Why is it suddenly cool to cut characters? People got upset over the loss of Lucas and he's just a (heavily) modified Ness from a game that didn't release outside of Japan. Imagine cutting even half of the characters there. Smash thrives on characters. Not stages, or music, or trophies, but characters. And once someone gets into Smash, their relevance outside the game is null. Once a Smasher, always a Smasher. Just look at Roy! People want him back and there's already 3 different straight up sword wielders from Fire Emblem (I don't count Robin because s/he uses magic AND IS ACTUALLY DISTINCTIVE). Seriously, I hope Robin sticks around on the merit that s/he will likely be the only FE character that's a tactician.

FTFY

The number of cuts in the next Smash game will depend on if they go with a new engine that requires every character to be remade from scratch again like in Smash 4, how long it takes to make each character, & how much development time they have.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I can't even imagine a new smash after this unless the series somehow becomes more iterative in releasing updated versions of the same game.

 

[kirby_fox]

Smash Next should cut everyone but the original 12, and then create a cast of odd characters with vets as DLC.

So you'll get your Skull Kid, but Zelda is DLC.

 

[L Thammy]

Again, I suspect that future Smash Bros games will make itself distinctive in terms of features and modes. Like Subspace Emissary, SSB4's customizable characters. Or Smash Run and Smash Tour. I don't think it will be an evolution that's easy to predict.

 

[Nanashrew]

Watching Marth on the Replay Channel, I am suddenly very excited for the return of Roy. The two will always be inseparable to me, because of Melee, so it'll be nice to finally see them reunited.

 

[Neoxon]

I can't even imagine a new smash after this unless the series somehow becomes more iterative in releasing updated versions of the same game.

I actually can. While this game is great, it's definitely not the best Smash Bros. game (that honor belongs to Melee) & can definitely improve on a lot of things from an engine level. To be the definitive Smash game it must have the gameplay of Melee, the roster of Smash 4 (not hindered by the 3DS), & a mix of Melee, Brawl, & Smash 4 as far as features go. Until that game is made, it's not the definitive Smash game & improvements can still be made. Likewise, the competitive scene will never fully embrace a Smash game like they did for Melee unless the next Smash game is truly a successor to Melee in gameplay. That's not to say Smash 4 is a bad game, it isn't, but even with its good numbers for tournaments, it's still second to Melee in almost every regard (except the roster, obviously).

 

[MaverickHunterAsh]

Hey all! For those of you who don't frequent the main Smash OT, I've just kicked off a census for SmashGAF to share who everyone in the community uses as their main, secondary, and tertiary characters. It's just for fun, but I and quite a few others think the resulting data will be interesting to see!

If you want to participate, all you have to do is fill out this short Google Docs form! It won't take even a minute of your time!

Alternatively, if you don't have or don't want a Google account (login is required to ensure only one submission per person), you can send me a PM listing your three characters instead.

I'll be accepting submissions for the next two weeks, until 11:59pm on Sunday, May 17th. Hope to see some good participation - the first couple of days have been promising!

 

[A Link to the Past]

One thing I don't get about people who put Dixie on a roster but not an RH rep is that Dixie only really has steam from dubious leaks, just as an RH rep does, except in the case of an RH rep, they have a lot going for them to suggest that they were being considered.

 

[GustyGardner]

Hey all! For those of you who don't frequent the main Smash OT, I've just kicked off a census for SmashGAF to share who everyone in the community uses as their main, secondary, and tertiary characters. It's just for fun, but I and quite a few others think the resulting data will be interesting to see!

If you want to participate, all you have to do is fill out this short Google Docs form! It won't take even a minute of your time!

Alternatively, if you don't have or don't want a Google account (login is required to ensure only one submission per person), you can send me a PM listing your three characters instead.

I'll be accepting submissions for the next two weeks, until 11:59pm on Sunday, May 17th. Hope to see some good participation - the first couple of days have been promising!

This is a cool idea. Even though I don't post much in here, I'll lend my vote. Ness mains assemble!

 

[RomanceDawn]

One thing I don't get about people who put Dixie on a roster but not an RH rep is that Dixie only really has steam from dubious leaks, just as an RH rep does, except in the case of an RH rep, they have a lot going for them to suggest that they were being considered.

Well Dixie was intended for Brawl, so as far as prediction rosters go it's only natural people would include her now.

On the other hand when it comes to wish list rosters it's obvious that Dixie is just popular.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I actually can. While this game is great, it's definitely not the best Smash Bros. game (that honor belongs to Melee) & can definitely improve on a lot of things from an engine level. To be the definitive Smash game it must have the gameplay of Melee, the roster of Smash 4 (not hindered by the 3DS), & a mix of Melee, Brawl, & Smash 4 as far as features go. Until that game is made, it's not the definitive Smash game & improvements can still be made. Likewise, the competitive scene will never fully embrace a Smash game like they did for Melee unless the next Smash game is truly a successor to Melee in gameplay. That's not to say Smash 4 is a bad game, it isn't, but even with its good numbers for tournaments, it's still second to Melee in almost every regard (except the roster, obviously).

Lol.. I never know how to react to the melee worship.It wasn't that great.

 

[Ryce]

To be the definitive Smash game it must have the gameplay of Melee

No, it most certainly does not.

 

[BatDan]

Lol.. I never know how to react to the melee worship.It wasn't that great.

"Mah wavedashing!"

I don't get the Melee worship either.

 

[Neoxon]

Lol.. I never know how to react to the melee worship.It wasn't that great.

No, it most certainly does not.

Tell that to the thousands of Smash players who refuse to pick up Smash 4. I'm not one of those people, I play Smash 4 (Sonic, Shulk, Mega Man, Robin), Melee (Ganondorf), & Project M (Ganondorf) competitively (Smash 4 is the game I'm best at of the 3). But the only way Smash will ever get any bigger than Melee competitively is if it adopts Melee's gameplay.

Take EVO for example, had Smash 4 replaced Melee, we would have had a riot on our hands. But on the other hand, they could have gotten away with just Melee & not Smash 4 In fact, Smash 4 has to fight for its competitive survival despite it being only a few months old. If the next Smash game is to take Melee's place competitively without insane amounts of backlash, the game itself has to be more like Melee. Smash 4 is a step in the right direction, as shown by the increased number of entrants for tournaments, but they need to go further. The majority of the competitive scene consider Melee from a gameplay standpoint to be the pinnacle of Smash, this is a fact (go ask most of the Smash scene). At tournaments, there are small crowds watching Smash 4 while nearly the entire venue watches Melee. Melee is the main event for a reason.

 

[L Thammy]

Tell that to the thousands of Smash players who refuse to pick up Smash 4.

Yeah, if they had Melee gameplay, they could have increased their sales by over 0.5%!

 

[Neoxon]

Yeah, if they had Melee gameplay, they could have increased their sales by over 0.5%!

But the competitive entrants would have quadrupled & Melee could have been retired without much of a fuss. And tournaments that stream basically advertise the game to those watching.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Remind me, is the first time we've had Melee vs. Brawl/4 in this thread?

If that's the case, I'm surprised it took this long LOL

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Brawl eclipsed Melee on sales, several times over.

Just throwing that out there

 

[Neoxon]

Remind me, is the first time we've had Melee vs. Brawl/4 in this thread?

If that's the case, I'm surprised it took this long LOL

My point is just that as great as Smash 4, there's the stubborn ones who will refuse to play Smash 4 since it's too far off from Melee. And unfortunately, the stubborn ones make up a good majority of the competitive Smash scene.

Brawl eclipsed Melee on sales, several times over.

Just throwing that out there

Because it was on the Wii & was honestly overhyped (plus the inclusions of Snake & Sonic didn't hurt). Now Brawl is dead competitively & is only good for being the base for Project M.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Brawl eclipsed Melee on sales, several times over.

Just throwing that out there

but melee had a higher attach rate so it sold more DON'T YOU GET IT MAN

My point is just that as great as Smash 4, there's the stubborn ones who will refuse to play Smash 4 since it's too far off from Melee. And unfortunately, the stubborn ones make up a good majority of the competitive Smash scene.

I'm not arguing against that, I'm saying I'm surprised it took this long for this argument to come up lol

 

[Ryce]

Tell that to the thousands of Smash players who refuse to pick up Smash 4. I'm not one of those people, I play Smash 4 (Sonic, Shulk, Mega Man, Robin), Melee (Ganondorf), & Project M (Ganondorf) competitively (Smash 4 is the game I'm best at of the 3). But the only way Smash will ever get any bigger than Melee competitively is if it adopts Melee's gameplay.

Take EVO for example, had Smash 4 replaced Melee, we would have had a riot on our hands. But on the other hand, they could have gotten away with just Melee & not Smash 4 In fact, Smash 4 has to fight for its competitive survival despite it being only a few months old. If the next Smash game is to take Melee's place competitively without insane amounts of backlash, the game itself has to be more like Melee. Smash 4 is a step in the right direction, as shown by the increased number of entrants for tournaments, but they need to go further. The majority of the competitive scene consider Melee from a gameplay standpoint to be the pinnacle of Smash, this is a fact (go ask most of the Smash scene). At tournaments, there are small crowds watching Smash 4 while nearly the entire venue watches Melee. Melee is the main event for a reason.

I don't see how any of that makes Melee the better game. Smash Bros. is much bigger than its competitive scene, which doesn't mean anything to the majority of the people who bought this game. I don't care about which game is more popular at Evo; I care about which game is more enjoyable, and I have a better time playing Smash 4.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Tell that to the thousands of Smash players who refuse to pick up Smash 4.

I do.

They don't listen to me.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I do hope that Paper Mario can get in. It would also be funny to see Paper Boy.

 

[Neoxon]

I don't see how any of that makes Melee the better game. Smash Bros. is much bigger than its competitive scene, which doesn't mean anything to the majority of the people who bought this game. I don't care about which game is more popular at Evo; I care about which game is more enjoyable, and I have a better time playing Smash 4.

Casual players will enjoy Smash no matter what (unless the game is absolute trash), Nintendo will always have that audience as long as their systems sell. At its core, Smash is a game that anyone can jump into & enjoy, but those who want to get good at the game can dig deeper and find more technical tricks (much like any other fighting game). It's the competitive scene that they have to fight for. And if they win the competitive scene, it'll lead to more tournaments with that game & more people watching the game, which leads to more sales.

I play Smash 4 competitively (my tag is Star-Lord), & even I can admit that Smash 4 isn't as fun to watch from a competitive standpoint as Melee. It's fun as hell to play, though.

 

[Ryce]

Casual players will enjoy Smash no matter what, Nintendo will always have that audience as long as their systems sell. It's the competitive scene that they have to fight for. And if they win the competitive scene, it'll lead to more tournaments with that game & more people watching the game, which leads to more sales.

I'm sure most competitive Melee players bought Smash 4 even if they didn't end up sticking with it. At best, competitive gaming might influence a few thousand people to buy a game they had no prior interest in, but that's still a drop in the bucket. It's not what some people want to hear, but the competitive scene is of negligible concern to Nintendo. Smash Bros. will thrive with or without Evo. The most successful game in the series happens to be the least tourney-friendly.

 

[woopWOOP]

Hey all! For those of you who don't frequent the main Smash OT, I've just kicked off a census for SmashGAF to share who everyone in the community uses as their main, secondary, and tertiary characters. It's just for fun, but I and quite a few others think the resulting data will be interesting to see!

Voted, tho I actually had a hard time picking since I got a number of mains, secondary and screw-around characters.
In fact I haven't played my main guy Dedede in awhile since I always goof around with random characters in For Fun :V

 

[Neoxon]

I'm sure most competitive Melee players bought Smash 4 even if they didn't end up sticking with it. At best, competitive gaming might influence a few thousand people to buy a game they had no prior interest in, but that's still a drop in the bucket. It's not what some people want to hear, but the competitive scene is of negligible concern to Nintendo. Smash Bros. will thrive with or without Evo. The most successful game in the series happens to be the least tourney-friendly.

That's because...

• It was the first game to add third-party characters, mainly Snake & Sonic
• It was on the Wii, the Viagra of software sales for Nintendo games

Take both of those away & it would have dropped like a rock in long-term sales.

 

[L Thammy]

That's because...

• It was the first game to add third-party characters, mainly Snake & Sonic
• It was on the Wii, the Viagra of software sales for Nintendo games

Take both of those away & it would have dropped like a rock in long-term sales.

The problem with this is that it involves a fantasy scenario that we cannot observe. Is it possible that Brawl would do worse than Melee in the same situation? Could be, but it was never in the same situation and it never did worse than Melee, so we don't know how much the factors you mentioned actually matter.

 

[Neoxon]

The problem with this is that it involves a fantasy scenario that we cannot observe. Is it possible that Brawl would do worse than Melee in the same situation? Could be, but it was never in the same situation and it never did worse than Melee, so we don't know how much the factors you mentioned actually matter.

Fair enough, but I'm just throwing in my 2 cents. Plus it was riding the hype of Melee, which it failed to live up to in the long run.

 

[L Thammy]

Fair enough, but I'm just throwing in my 2 cents. Plus it was riding the hype of Melee, which it failed to live up to in the long run.

See, this I think is demonstrably wrong. I'd try dig up the numbers if I wasn't in the middle of cooking, but I'm certain that Brawl had an extremely long tail. The thing about hype is that it tends to rapidly deflate if a game is disappointing. In fact, most games make most of their sales on the first day. A big part of the reason why Nintendo games don't is because of good word of mouth.

 

[Jobbs]

Put in my vote for Mother Brain.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Brawl has extremely long legs and was one of the most played Wii games online right up until they closed the servers, if not the single most played online (although Mario Kart might have beaten it)

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if people were still buying Brawl.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

is only good for being the base for Project M.

You should perform stand up, some of these quotes make me giggle.

 

[Neoxon]

You should perform stand up, some of these quotes make me giggle.

Have you played Project M?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Have you played Project M?

I'm European.

 

[Neoxon]

I'm European.

Okay, that makes sense. Think of it as Melee with some of the good bits of Brawl mixed into one game, with everyone form Brawl plus Mewtwo & Roy. But I'm pretty sure you know what it is.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Oh come on, you're being silly. Brawl sold 12 million to an audience of 100 million people, Melee sold like 7 million to an audience of 22 million. That's more than 1/7 of the Wii audience, while Melee sold to more than 1/4 of the GameCube audience - and Brawl only sold 5 million more, despite the Wii selling approximately 4 1/2 more than the GameCube. Melee was a profoundly successful game.