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[Gonzo The Great]

You're counting the GBA and GBC ports as well as the Land games? Also, in three of the Kirby games you listed, Meta Knight is playable. He's also playable in Canvas Curse and in Triple Deluxe,

Spoiler

Dark Meta Knight is a secret boss.

I counted Nightmare in Dream Land and Super Star Ultra, so why not? Both franchises have a history of getting ports, and they definitely matter if we're talking about exposure. Many detractors argue that kids today have no idea who K. Rool is, all while ignoring the GBA ports of the DKC trilogy and Virtual Console re-releases. Also, the Land games have completely different levels and plots, so I fail to see why they shouldn't count. And I'm not sure why you're mentioning Canvas Curse, since it's no more of a "platformer" than King of Swing.

I'd argue that Donkey Kong Land has the greatest plot in video game history. It's so Rare.

According to the game's instruction booklet, the story takes place after the events of Donkey Kong Country, where Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong are discussing about their latest adventure to Cranky Kong. Cranky admits that the adventure was more successful than he thought, although claiming that it was only because of the "fancy graphics" and that "Kids'll buy anything nowadays". After Cranky goes on about the games of his time, the two other Kongs try to convince him that it was not only fancy graphics that made Donkey Kong Country great, but that it "was just plain fun". However, this did not convince the old ape, so he challenges Donkey and Diddy to an adventure on an 8-bit black/white system (Game Boy), with King K. Rool stealing the Banana Hoard again. Once the bet is decided, Cranky Kong arranges everything and calls King K. Rool to come and take the hoard overnight.

I don't think "Meta Knight has been playable before" is a valid counterargument, because, unless a franchise receives multiple spin-off games, chances are that the villains will never have an opportunity to be playable outside of Smash. But if it really matters, then K. Rool was a playable character in DK King of Swing, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, and Mario Super Sluggers. He was also going to be playable in Diddy Kong Pilot, but again, the buyout completely screwed everything over.

I don't know why everything has to come back to K. Rool. Meta Knight is an independently deserving character. Just because K. Rool isn't playable doesn't mean Meta Knight shouldn't be. They have nothing to do with each other.

It works both ways. K. Rool and Meta Knight are both iconic Nintendo characters who deserve to be playable. I'm not sure why decade long absences are okay for Meta Knight but they're not okay for K. Rool because he's ugly.

 

[Ryce]

I'm not sure why decade long absences are okay for Meta Knight but they're not okay for K. Rool because he's ugly.

You lost me. Meta Knight was included in Brawl fresh off of consecutive appearances in Nightmare in Dream Land, Air Ride, and The Amazing Mirror. K. Rool's last appearance was 7 years ago, and his last appearance in a main Donkey Kong game was 15 years ago.

 

[Fury Sense]

I would like to see this

or this

 

[Rooligan]

With everything that's counted for Meta Knight, I don't know why King of Swing and Jungle Climber aren't counted for K. Rool. He has primary villain roles in them and they're no more spin offs than something like the proposed Canvas Curse.

Ganondorf has basically been dead since Twilight Princess, and nobody's calling him irrelevant due to his existing important history as a central part of the series.

Jungle Climber Release Date: August 9th, 2007
Twilight Princess Release Date: November 19th, 2006

 

[Ryce]

Ganondorf has basically been dead since Twilight Princess, and nobody's calling him irrelevant due to his existing important history as a central part of the series.

Jungle Climber Release Date: August 9th, 2007
Twilight Princess Release Date: November 19th, 2006

Ganondorf isn't a newcomer.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'm suspect to DK having more sales than Kirby. I don't believe that's true, Kirby games have always sold really well, even spin offs

 

[Ryce]

I'm suspect to DK having more sales than Kirby. I don't believe that's true, Kirby games have always sold really well, even spin offs

A March 2010 press release said the Donkey Kong series has sold over 50 million copies (mentioned here, but the press site is no longer accessible), DKC Returns has officially sold 4.96 million copies, and DKC Returns 3D sold 1.52, so that’s at least 56 million. The most recent press release I can find puts Kirby at 33 million.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

You lost me. Meta Knight was included in Brawl fresh off of consecutive appearances in Nightmare in Dream Land, Air Ride, and The Amazing Mirror. K. Rool's last appearance was 7 years ago, and his last appearance in a main Donkey Kong game was 15 years ago.

"main Donkey Kong game"

If ports and spin-offs don't count, then Meta Knight didn't appear in a Kirby game from 1996 to 2004, since he was absent from Kirby's Dream Land 3 and Kirby 64. Why does Nightmare in Dream Land count, but the GBA port of DKC3 doesn't? It actually has new levels! People use the same arbitrary criteria in order to disqualify characters like Waluigi and Daisy from the running because they haven't appeared in "main" Mario games. None of this even matters since Hal has made literally every game in the Kirby series, while the DK series was in limbo between Melee and Donkey Kong Country Returns, and yet K. Rool still made routine appearances. If anything, he was robbed from Brawl. Again, this is yet another example of the buyout screwing everything over. We probably would have had K. Rool, Dixie, and potentially Cranky by now.

DK King of Swing - February 4, 2005
Donkey Kong Country 3 (GBA) - November 7th, 2005
Donkey Kong Barrel Blast - June 28th, 2007
DK Jungle Climber - August 9th, 2007

Kirby Air Ride - July 11, 2003
Kirby & the Amazing Mirror - April 15, 2004
Kirby: Canvas Curse - March 24, 2005
Kirby: Squeak Squad - November 2, 2006

Super Smash Bros. Brawl - January 31, 2008

Yes, it's probably a silly comparison, but it's just another example of people treating the DK series with contempt, looking for every possible reason to disqualify highly requested characters. K. Rool is irrelevant, fat, ugly, Dixie is too similar to Diddy, etc. If it wasn't bad enough that the series was in limbo for nearly a decade, the internet was jeering over the announcement of Tropical Freeze. How dare Retro Studios make a second DKC game after making three Metroid games in a row. I hope round three is coming soon.

I'm suspect to DK having more sales than Kirby. I don't believe that's true, Kirby games have always sold really well, even spin offs

It's true. The first Donkey Kong Country alone sold 9 million copies, and that doesn't include the two ports. It's no coincidence that the worst selling DK games were all released during the GCN era.

 

[Green Mamba]

I'm suspect to DK having more sales than Kirby. I don't believe that's true, Kirby games have always sold really well, even spin offs

www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963700

Kirby typically sells well, but nothing even close to Donkey Kong Country, which is the sales equivalent of like seven or eight normal Kirby releases. Sales of Donkey Kong Country 1-3, Donkey Kong 64, and Donkey Kong Country Returns dwarf that of nearly every single Kirby release. The only Kirby release that's comparable is Kirby's Dream Land. Kirby does very well for itself but doesn't usually do absurd numbers. Donkey Kong can miss, but when it hits it hits it out of the park.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=963700

Kirby typically sells well, but nothing even close to Donkey Kong Country, which is the sales equivalent of like seven or eight normal Kirby releases. Sales of Donkey Kong Country 1-3, Donkey Kong 64, and Donkey Kong Country Returns dwarf that of nearly every single Kirby release. The only Kirby release that's comparable is Kirby's Dream Land. Kirby does very well for itself but doesn't usually do absurd numbers. Donkey Kong can miss, but when it hits it hits it out of the park.

Yep. This is true. Every Donkey Kong game Rare developed, including the Land games and Diddy Kong Racing, all sold over one million units. So far, the same holds true for Retro Studios, though Tropical Freeze under performed considerably compared to DKCR. You can blame the atrocious Wii U install base for that. Kirby and the Rainbow Curse is by far the worst selling game in the Kirby series for a similar reason. The moral of the story is: Fuck Microsoft.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Fun fact: same character designer as Fire Emblem Awakening / If.

 

[Zubz]

I would like to see this

This poster knows what's up.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

A March 2010 press release said the Donkey Kong series has sold over 50 million copies (mentioned here, but the press site is no longer accessible), DKC Returns has officially sold 4.96 million copies, and DKC Returns 3D sold 1.52, so that’s at least 56 million. The most recent press release I can find puts Kirby at 33 million.

Ok, fair enough. I didn't know the SNES games sold so well, for some reason I had heard they did poorly in Japan

 

[The Bankslammer]

Fun fact: same character designer as Fire Emblem Awakening / If.

Well, kinda. His website lists him as main character design assistance, and he said on Twitter that he just did base sketches (though I'm honestly not sure what that means in regards to his involvement in the design, I'm not too up on Japanese design terminology, lol). He's listed as special thanks in the credits and isn't involved with EBA or Ouendan 2.

It's still pretty darn neat though.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I just realized Star Fox has no electric guitar music.

Damn it Smash where's my Star Wolf rock n' roll version?

 

[woopWOOP]

I just realized Star Fox has no electric guitar music.

Damn it Smash where's my Star Wolf rock n' roll version?

Another Star Wolf remix? Psh, pass!
How about another Area 6 remix instead... with electric guitars!

 

[Boss Doggie]

But it fits Star Wolf!

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Don't forget DKC was pretty huge sales-wise on the original Virtual Console. Wouldn't surprise me if those sales were part of what got Nintendo to pitch a DKC sequel specifically to Retro given that project started around late '07/early '08.

While I'd like the novelty of seeing K. Rool again after all this time with a moveset that builds off his different personas, I'm still fine with Dixie (who I reckon was at least considered for SSB4 given DK's resurgence and being a part of Diddy's moveset at one point in Brawl), Cranky or even motherfucking Funky Kong though.

or just give me banjo/shantae/tingle/goku, whatever

 

[MrSaturn99]

I just realized Star Fox has no electric guitar music.

Damn it Smash where's my Star Wolf rock n' roll version?

Like this?

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I wonder if they had a new Ice Climbers remix ready to go before they got cut. And then they cut the music.

I also wonder what their 3DS stage would be. I think probably an NES Sprite style stage, with The Summit as the Wii U stage. Neither the Summit or Icicle Mountain could probably work on the 3DS, and ICs wouldn't have gotten two stages.

I think that's where F-Zero had issues too. F-Zero didn't require two new stages, but the 3DS couldn't run Mute City, Big Blue or Port Town, so it required the new stage. Although I'm a little suspect that Big Blue couldn't work, since it's N64 models over a fairly plain background. And the Falcon Flyer is a trophy. And Big Blue missing in action is just weird and hasn't settled with me.

If they had launched that song without Ice Climbers, it'd be like Roy's Hope in Brawl and the new Star Wolf remix. Bitter reminders of who was left behind.

 

[Green Mamba]

Melee's Mute City would have been easily doable on the 3DS. It's a less graphically intense Rainbow Road, essentially. The real reason it was kept out was because every Melee stage in SSB4 was in Brawl.

And I wouldn't read anything into Big Blue being missing. F-Zero and Mother stages just weren't a priority this time.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Like this?

that's too techno for me

 

[Ryce]

I wonder if they had a new Ice Climbers remix ready to go before they got cut. And then they cut the music.

Probably not. The other returning retro series (Game & Watch, R.O.B.) don't have new music either.

 

[Fandangox]

Is Wonder Red in yet.

 

[Zubz]

I wonder if they had a new Ice Climbers remix ready to go before they got cut. And then they cut the music.

I also wonder what their 3DS stage would be. I think probably an NES Sprite style stage, with The Summit as the Wii U stage. Neither the Summit or Icicle Mountain could probably work on the 3DS, and ICs wouldn't have gotten two stages.

A lot of series didn't get too many new remixes at all; despite the wide selection Sonic & Wario offer, they got shafted musically, with only a Japan-exclusive Ashley remix as a new song between them. There's only one song in Ice Climber, so they might not'be bothered, even if they made it back.

I agree about the 8-Bit Mountain; Smash is the only series where anything Ice Climber related isn't sprite-based. Smash has several "Look ripped out of an 8/16-Bit game" stages, anyway, so it'd make sense if Ice Climber got one

F-Zero and Mother stages just weren't a priority this time.

Seeing how priority is based on the chances of a sequel, according to Sakurai, that realization kinda just crushed my E3 hopes.

 

[SenorArdilla]

Idealistically, I want everyone back. Even Pichu. His Alts can be all the Pika Clones since they share basically the same body type.

Pichu
Plusle
Minun
Pachirisu
Emolga
Dedenne

And they all have alts with different hats.

Spoiler

Raichu will never be acknowledged.

 

[AnkiRendan]

Emolga can fly though. It wouldn't work unfortunately.

Sigh. I wish Pokemon got a fifth gen rep. :/

 

[RomanceDawn]

Emolga can fly though. It wouldn't work unfortunately.

Sigh. I wish Pokemon got a fifth gen rep. :/

Emolga could function as an alternate for Pikachu. It doesn't have to fly or glide unless it was its own character. If Pikachu even got a couple of those as alts I would be so hyped and I don't even use Pikachu.

You know even if Raichu had a body type that was much more in line with Pika I bet the Pokemon company would completely advise against it. To me Riachu is the most neglected Pokemon from Game Freak. They want you to know it exists but anything more than just it's acknowledgement is taboo.

If we don't get more skins and alts for at least half the cast I'm going to be mad! Man where is my Dry Bowser?!

 

[L Thammy]

Seeing how priority is based on the chances of a sequel, according to Sakurai, that realization kinda just crushed my E3 hopes.

I don't know why you'd be expecting a new F-Zero or Mother. Nintendo's still pushing a major racing game - one with F-Zero content no less. And we have no reason to believe that Itoi's ever going to make another game. It's not like that's his real job.

 

[Golnei]

Idealistically, I want everyone back. Even Pichu. His Alts can be all the Pika Clones since they share basically the same body type.

Pichu
Plusle
Minun
Pachirisu
Emolga
Dedenne

And they all have alts with different hats.

Spoiler

Raichu will never be acknowledged.

Actually making a separate Pokemon an alt of another probably wouldn't be permitted; given the constraints put on their representation ingame, but costumes themed after them in a similar vein to the Mega Charizard cosplay Pikachu doll could work.

It probably wouldn't be too out-of-place for a hypothetical Pichu to wear something like that in addition to its Melee scarves. Especially considering the bitter tears of agony that a Squirtle or Ivysaur costume would elicit.

 

[Zubz]

I don't know why you'd be expecting a new F-Zero or Mother. Nintendo's still pushing a major racing game - one with F-Zero content no less. And we have no reason to believe that Itoi's ever going to make another game. It's not like that's his real job.

I'm wholly aware about Mother, but I'm still half-holding out for a new F-Zero. I mean, Mario Kart 8's allegedly done with DLC (Although those games' sales last forever; if it wasn't Nintendo, I'd be surprised if they meant it, and I can still see Nintendo doing it anyway), and the fanboy in me wants a Captain Falcon beat-em-up.

 

[Green Mamba]

I don't know why you'd be expecting a new F-Zero or Mother. Nintendo's still pushing a major racing game - one with F-Zero content no less. And we have no reason to believe that Itoi's ever going to make another game. It's not like that's his real job.

This is why it's doubly bothersome that the two franchises got the short end of the stick this time around in comparison to the last two Smash Bros.: the franchises are dead, and Smash Bros. is one of their very few outlets that they have left. To see them left as an afterthought in the Wii U version with no new stage at all (and in F-Zero's case, basically no new music) sucks.

 

[Dimitri LH]

Raichu needs more love.....MAKE THAT FAKE N64 CHEAT REAL DAMNIT!!

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Actually making a separate Pokemon an alt of another probably wouldn't be permitted; given the constraints put on their representation ingame, but costumes themed after them in a similar vein to the Mega Charizard cosplay Pikachu doll could work.

It probably wouldn't be too out-of-place for a hypothetical Pichu to wear something like that in addition to its Melee scarves. Especially considering the bitter tears of agony that a Squirtle or Ivysaur costume would elicit.

I don't see why the Pokemon Company wouldn't allow at minimum, Plusle and Minun as Pichu alts.

In the anime they always portray Plusle and Minun as basically Pichu Bros clones anyway.

 

[NeonZ]

Actually making a separate Pokemon an alt of another probably wouldn't be permitted; given the constraints put on their representation ingame, but costumes themed after them in a similar vein to the Mega Charizard cosplay Pikachu doll could work.

Would that really be that different from Pichu in Melee? He had a couple of unique moves, but still was mostly based on Pikachu. Yes, as costumes there'd be no gameplay changes at all, but they'd still get their own names, voices and everything else, like the Koopalings.

In fact, I guess voice recording might be the biggest problem here. Note that Bowser Jr and the Koopalings barely have voice clips, presumably because they knew that each skin would need their own.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Jr and gang don't really have that many less than other characters.

 

[NeonZ]

Jr and gang don't really have that many less than other characters.

Huh... Looking at the sound test list, you're apparently right. Each one has about 25 clips. It's weird that they're oddly mute for most taunts and many attacks then.

 

[AnkiRendan]

Emolga could function as an alternate for Pikachu. It doesn't have to fly or glide unless it was its own character. If Pikachu even got a couple of those as alts I would be so hyped and I don't even use Pikachu.

You know even if Raichu had a body type that was much more in line with Pika I bet the Pokemon company would completely advise against it. To me Riachu is the most neglected Pokemon from Game Freak. They want you to know it exists but anything more than just it's acknowledgement is taboo.

If we don't get more skins and alts for at least half the cast I'm going to be mad! Man where is my Dry Bowser?!

It would just be strange not seeing Emolga be able to fly/glide though...

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Huh... Looking at the sound test list, you're apparently right. Each one has about 25 clips. It's weird that they're oddly mute for most taunts and many attacks then.

I find it weird that not all of them have the same number of voice lines. I think a few are missing a couple hit sounds and just re-use the same sound twice where other koopas have a unique line.

They must not have had enough lines to borrow from NSMB Wii.

 

[SenorArdilla]

All the voice acting done for the Koopalings in those games were chuckles, grunts, and yells.

 

[Boss Doggie]

no one seem to have a problem when everyone from the Mario cast only does grunts, chuckling, and kiaing.

Except for Rosalina. Dat "Mm-hmm~"

 

[Village]

. If the buyout never happened, it's pretty obvious that the DK representation in Smash would look a lot different.

I'm not going to get into the first part of your statement, its 3 days old.

I will say I don't think this statement is true. I have always got the feeling Sakurai , might not care too much for DK as like a thing.

 

[Azure J]

no one seem to have a problem when everyone from the Mario cast only does grunts, chuckling, and kiaing.

Except for Rosalina. Dat "Mm-hmm~"

One of the bigger reasons why I'm still very interested in learning her. Mm-hmm is the new "You're Too Slow~!"

 

[Boss Doggie]

Smash is averse on putting "fantasy" costumes right - that the character must have gotten that look in their games to be a costume?

I guess that means no shirtless Wolf alt when he comes.

 

[NeonZ]

I'm not going to get into the first part of your statement, its 3 days old.

I will say I don't think this statement is true. I have always got the feeling Sakurai , might not care too much for DK as like a thing.

Eh... I don't think we'd have gotten Diddy in Brawl if he had anything against Donkey Kong. The series was pretty weak at the time. He easily could have kept Donkey Kong by himself. DK probably got nothing here due to the cast being planned fairly early in development, when there was only Donkey Kong Returns featuring DK and Diddy again.

More recently, Tropical Freeze had pretty low numbers in the USA and was an actual bomb in Japan, which doesn't help the situation regarding end of development additions or DLC (although there's always the poll, I guess).

 

[MrBadger]

I don't really think the Rare buyout had much bearing on the DK representation, since there aren't any evil DK's Melee or Brawl. These guys -

That and the Kremlings and K. Rool were still the main antagonists until Retro took over after Brawl. Furthermore, Diddy in Brawl is repping his DKC idyl animations and stuff.

 

[Sponge]

I don't really think the Rare buyout had much bearing on the DK representation, since there aren't any evil DK's Melee or Brawl. These guys -

That and the Kremlings and K. Rool were still the main antagonists until Retro took over after Brawl. Furthermore, Diddy in Brawl is repping his DKC idyl animations and stuff.

Well, the plan Koizumi had for Jungle Beat was to phase out everything from DKC besides DK himself. If that game were successful, we wouldn't be seeing Diddy around anymore. As much as I love Jungle Beat's gameplay, I'm glad it didn't get the sales they wanted for that reason alone.

 

[Village]

Eh... I don't think we'd have gotten Diddy in Brawl if he had anything against Donkey Kong. The series was pretty weak at the time. He easily could have kept Donkey Kong by himself. DK probably got nothing here due to the cast being planned fairly early in development, when there was only Donkey Kong Returns featuring DK and Diddy again.

More recently, Tropical Freeze had pretty low numbers in the USA and was an actual bomb in Japan, which doesn't help the situation regarding end of development additions or DLC (although there's always the poll, I guess).

You are misunderstanding what I am saying, I don't think he hates DK. I just don't think it enamors him as much as other stuff. Like he really likes fire emblem, there is a bunch of fire emblem shit in the game. There is arguably more fire emblem stuff, than say DK stuff. Unless you consider mario DK Spin of cosmic sort of way. ( I do its fun). Nothing against fire emblem , I like it more than DK , Donkey Kong as a character is responsible for like, mario's existence. Mario and Donkey are responsible for nintendo being the way it is today, and because of that... you would think he would get more stuff in smash... but he doesn't.

Like we are talking about guy who visited the pokemon company so he could see designs of pokemon that weren't in existence yet, so he could put them in smash bros.

Its not hate, its more like he may not like DK as much, as like everything else

 

[Neoxon]

You are misunderstanding what I am saying, I don't think he hates DK. I just don't think it enamors him as much as other stuff. Like he really likes fire emblem, there is a bunch of fire emblem shit in the game. There is arguably more fire emblem stuff, than say DK stuff. Unless you consider mario DK Spin of cosmic sort of way. ( I do its fun). Nothing against fire emblem , I like it more than DK , Donkey Kong as a character is responsible for like, mario's existence. Mario and Donkey are responsible for nintendo being the way it is today, and because of that... you would think he would get more stuff in smash... but he doesn't.

Like we are talking about guy who visited the pokemon company so he could see designs of pokemon that weren't in existence yet, so he could put them in smash bros.

Its not hate, its more like he may not like DK as much, as like everything else

Actually, Cranky Kong was responsible for Mario's existence. Your point kinda still stands, but you messed up one detail.

 

[jnWake]

I don't think Sakurai has any hate towards DKC. It's just that DK franchise was in a weird spot for both Melee's and Brawl's launch, DKCR removed K. Rool and Dixie was MIA (DKC's best shots at a new character) and maybe he doesn't have an established communication channel with Retro so maybe he wasn't aware that Dixie was returning in TF. Smash Run did get both Kremlings as Tikis as enemies so it isn't like Sakurai didn't bother with the franchise at all. I bet that if DKCR had included either K. Rool or Dixie, we'd have seen a DK newcomer for Smash 4.

There's also the chance that Sakurai does have a bias, but I prefer to believe he doesn't haha.