Omega Kirby
Member
I just want an update for for glory with custom moves on.
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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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I'm sorry didn't pay respect to Dk Granpa OG gangsta kong. Please forgive me.
Green Mamba
Member
Donkey Kong doesn't even have an Assist Trophy.
MannyToons
Member
I don't even like remembering that fact.
All things considered (it's a small sub-series), Metroid Prime has been pretty well-represented in Smash. It had a stage and boss in Brawl, and it has an Assist Trophy in this game.
Nocturnowl
Member
I'm sure he has copies DKCR/DKC1, he just quickly played the first few minutes of each to get a feel for them and came out with Jungle Stages and DK Island Swing mixes by the bucket load.
Though he probably could use some copies of Wario Land.
Green Mamba
Member
A small sub-series? Metroid Prime is the best selling game in the series, and most western fans (which make up the bulk of Metroid's fanbase) consider them just as integral to the series as the rest of the series. In light of that, it's underrepresented if anything. The way the past two Smashes have mainly represented the series based on the two least selling games in the series (Zero Mission and Other M) just because they're "mainline" shows that priorities for the series are pretty skewed.
NeonZ
Member
There's a double standard there though. Mario Kart technically is bigger than mainline Mario since the DS too, but yet you don't see Waluigi making it as a playable character or something like that. Metroid Prime's representation, or lack of, doesn't seem that odd considering how the biggest spin off series is treated by Smash.
That kind of coordination is pretty variable and inconsistent from game to game. You mention Fire Emblem there, but yet in Brawl we ended up getting a version of Ike that was already outdated by then, with the only Radiant Dawn references being a single bgm, trophy and stickers. It's clear that there wasn't much coordination with what IS was doing back then.
He has to work closely with the Pokemon Company every time though since they're separate from Nintendo and have tighter control on their franchise.
That kind of coordination is pretty variable and inconsistent from game to game. You mention Fire Emblem there, but yet in Brawl we ended up getting a version of Ike that was already outdated by then, with the only Radiant Dawn references being a single bgm, trophy and stickers. It's clear that there wasn't much coordination with what IS was doing back then.
He has to work closely with the Pokemon Company every time though since they're separate from Nintendo and have tighter control on their franchise.
Green Mamba
Member
Mario Kart has the largest stage presence in SSB4 in Smash's history (bigger than 2D Mario!), a huge selection of music, and Mario is incredibly well represented through characters on its own--every character in the extended Mario universe save Dr. Mario could be considered a Mario Kart character. Mario Kart does very well for itself in Smash, especially considering how comparatively big the greater Mario franchise is in comparison to Metroid.
In SSB4, though, Metroid Prime got an Assist Trophy, a pair of colors, and that's it--its one stage was removed, no new music--one was removed even (okay, one new bizarre pull from Hunters that no one wanted), no new trophies (essentially meaning that, outside of Dark Samus, Metroid Prime 3 has never had a single trophy in a Smash game). Other M somehow has as much music as the Prime trilogy (and no one has ever praised the soundtrack to that game, good lord) and the game makes up the bulk of Metroid's representation while the Prime series has mostly been shoved into the corner.
And again, perception wise, I don't think most fans in the west would consider Metroid Prime to be a spinoff like Mario Kart is. Most would consider it more akin to 3D Mario to 2D Mario.
This isnt directed at anyone, but the current discussion has me thinking how people tend to take Smash Bros. for granted. Marvel vs. Capcom 3, which is the biggest crossover fighter I can think of outside of Smash Bros., has only eight stages, one song per character/stage, no trophies or assist characters, and no series representation at all outside of the playable cast. For all of our whining about bias and representation, I sometimes wonder how worse off wed be without Sakurai. Hes able to do in two years what comparable fighting games couldnt even dream of.
NeonZ
Member
Mario kart isn't a dead franchise like Prime is right now though.
Prime lost quite a bit going from Brawl to SSB4 - a stage, a boss, and basically only got an Assist Trophy, some new Samus colors and a bgm.
Sidelining Prime like that and featuring Other M as the main Metroid game might indicate that they're somehow out of touch, but at the same time, consider that Sakamoto is still an active developer within Nintendo. Pushing his game bellow an older outsourced "spin off" might not sit well with them there.
MrSaturn99
Member
It's understandable if you think Metroid and DK (or any other series, for that matter) is underrepresented, but to say it's out of hatred or bias or w/e is rather...
I'm kind of glad about that, too, even if I liked what little of Jungle Beat I played; I loved DKC just the way it was. ... But it was a platformer using a bongo peripheral; it was kind of doomed from the start.
Yeah, that and Battlefield variants of each stage & specific, hazardless stages thrown into the stage rotation, too.
I mean, Gogoat is literally what Rambi should've been, just with that annoying "GOOOOOOOOOOOAT!" instead of a cute Rhinoceros that occasionally acts like a dog.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Half of Samus' alt colors come from Metroid Prime, and one of ZSS' even do as well. So Prime is really well repped in that regard.
This, though a Metroid Prime stage wouldn't hurt.
SuperLeviathan
Member
But in Prime's case, Retro is as first-party and internal as Sakamoto's unit. So, that shouldn't really affect things.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'd be rather pleased if Shantae got in through the ballot. It's definitely not a "nothing" series to Nintendo.
Why everyone has to jump to conclusions. Why does the suggestion of sakurai not liking one video game or not even liking being interested in one video game, automatically suggests hate. It happens, maybe Donkey Kong doesn't interest him that much, is all i'm saying.
So your argument is, we shouldn't criticize something about the game we don't like , because there are games that do even less.
No, not only am I going to criticize the thing i'm not fond of, i'm criticizing the thing with less more because it has less of it.
Also marvel vs capcom 3 while still a fighting game , is a different game with different mechanics, win conditions and a myriad of other things, so I don't know what you are even comparing?
I'm not arguing anything. I'm just making an observation. It's rare to go a day without seeing someone calling Sakurai lazy or biased or that he dislikes X. Smash Bros. has a ton of content compared to other games in its genre. Even the most "poorly represented" series in Smash Bros. are given more attention than they would in something like Marvel vs. Capcom or PlayStation All-Stars.
This is damn right. The more I play Smash the more I admire the man. He's literally hurting himself by giving his all in development. Not saying people should stop arguing about aspects they dislike, but if there's anything you can't ever accuse Sakurai of, is of not giving his all in every installment.
Whether his vision of what the series should be differs from one's own, that's a different matter entirely. But the man breathes Smash Brothers.
NeonZ
Member
Eh, I think there's clearly a difference. It's like comparing IS with EAD as far as Mario games go. IS has a slightly different ownership situation, but it's still basically an internal studio. Sakamoto was the franchise's creator and its continuing director.
Although Other M itself was a failure, Sakamoto has continued work on other successful software for Nintendo, so they wouldn't openly sideline him and reduce his own game to a side-entry inside the series that he created.
You can do all the work in the world, and still come of as lazy in some aspects. It doesn't matter what you think your piece means, its just up to your audience to interpret it. Whether you think their criticism is worth your time, for whatever reason yes or no. Is up to you.
Thats just life man
Why do you keep bringing marvel up like thats even a compatible situation here?
RomanceDawn
Member
I don't really think the Rare buyout had much bearing on the DK representation, since there aren't any evil DK's Melee or Brawl. These guys -
That and the Kremlings and K. Rool were still the main antagonists until Retro took over after Brawl. Furthermore, Diddy in Brawl is repping his DKC idyl animations and stuff.
Man if these guys teamed up with the Kremlings I would be on cloud 9. I really really loved their designs. There are a lot of things from Jungle Beat I would like to see again in a new DKC. Orco and those evil Kong's deserve to see the light of day! Wish one or 2 of them made a cameo in the back ground of any DK stage.
I'm not talking about gameplay. Marvel and Smash Bros. are both large scale fighting-oriented crossovers, only Marvel doesn't have much in the way of supplemental content. Smash Bros. could have very easily gotten away without having trophies, tons of music, tons of stages, Poké Balls, or Assist Trophies — none of it is necessary — but now there's an expectation for that sort of bonus content since it's been gradually introduced into the series. People take all of that for granted.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Smash has one of the most complex battle systems of any fighting game (to debug I mean), and yet it also has one of the largest rosters.
52, soon to be 55, characters is nothing to balk at. I don't see how anyone could call a team that had to do that in 2-3 years' time as lazy.
52, soon to be 55, characters is nothing to balk at. I don't see how anyone could call a team that had to do that in 2-3 years' time as lazy.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Most of the "Sakurai is biased!" shit is just fan rationalization. Most of the time he doesn't care.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I kid you not, I read someone on another forum claim Meta Knight is only in Smash because of Sakurai bias and if Sakurai wasn't in charge of Smash, MK would be nothing more than an Assist Trophy.
Which is one of the most ridiculous Smash related posts I've seen in awhile.
And yea, maybe Palutena wouldn't have gotten in Smash without Sakurai... but it's not like she couldn't have gotten in Smash.
Speaking of Sakurai's waifu
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I was hoping he'd be an ass-man like me 
I feel as though the Mimicuties now make perfect sense.
RimShot.WAV
I really don't think Sakurai has a character bias. He may be a fan of some of these games, but he doesn't ignore a series merely because he doesn't like it. He might be pressured to give a game more attention, or he might not be familiar enough with a franchise to push for more exposure, but I don't think he grumpily sits in his desk chair and rejects any Donkey Kong-related ideas handed to him out of spite for the franchise.
As for the Kirby and Kid Icarus stuff? I think Kirby could use a little more, honestly; it's certainly one of Nintendo's bigger franchises. Kid Icarus may be a bit more obscure, but Uprising was pretty big. Palutena was genuinely wanted by many people, and I'd say that spurt of popularity justified Dark Pit, especially because he was merely intended to be an alt until they started promoting them to playable. The only problem was that half of Smash Run's enemies were copy/paste jobs from Uprising, but as lame as that felt, Sakurai already had them on-hand and optimized for a game like Smash.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I wonder what would be our finalized number for our roster. I'm thrilled that we are getting some veterans back in Smash 4!
Hahaha! That was hilarious post. Where the heck did you read that post?
balladofwindfishes
Member
My issue with KI content in Smash is the items. There's just too many KI items while other series either have no items or very few. It took until Smash 4 for Zelda, a series that is known for its items, to get more than a handful of items. The Master Ball is only the second Pokemon item. Kid Icarus waltz in and gets a half dozen random items while other series just kind of float around with one or two, or none.
And items are hardly ever cut, so we're looking at random KI items that won't be relevant 6-8 years later
It's not like the concept of a back shield or turret really required them to be KI items. Or even a wind staff (wasted opportunity for a FE item)
Back Shield and X-Bomb would have been fine to rep KI. And even that is maybe one too many. But I can pretend the X-Bomb is a Meteos item (because it secretly is) and justify its existence. You're not fooling me Sakurai, you snuck a Meteos item into Smash and you know it (since he had to specifically mention it's totally not from Meteos).
I don't mind the KI Playable characters. You have the main character, the secondary "Peach" character and a new character to rep the new game (who is also a clone). Dark Pit being in Smash works in a lot of interesting ways too. He's a literal clone of Pit in his own series, so it works there. Dark Pit's origins are actually from Smash itself, so that's cool.
Trophies are also really lopsided to the 3DS for KI. It's probably the only series with such a huge shift in trophy count between the two versions.
And items are hardly ever cut, so we're looking at random KI items that won't be relevant 6-8 years later
It's not like the concept of a back shield or turret really required them to be KI items. Or even a wind staff (wasted opportunity for a FE item)
Back Shield and X-Bomb would have been fine to rep KI. And even that is maybe one too many. But I can pretend the X-Bomb is a Meteos item (because it secretly is) and justify its existence. You're not fooling me Sakurai, you snuck a Meteos item into Smash and you know it (since he had to specifically mention it's totally not from Meteos).
I don't mind the KI Playable characters. You have the main character, the secondary "Peach" character and a new character to rep the new game (who is also a clone). Dark Pit being in Smash works in a lot of interesting ways too. He's a literal clone of Pit in his own series, so it works there. Dark Pit's origins are actually from Smash itself, so that's cool.
Trophies are also really lopsided to the 3DS for KI. It's probably the only series with such a huge shift in trophy count between the two versions.
I agree that KI has many items, but I'd bet cash that Sakurai purposely designed them in Uprising so he could have easy new items ripe for Smash. No way he wasn't gonna take advantage of that. Also, while Pokémon could have items beside the Pokéball/Master Ball, come on, a series having its own assist trophy line more than makes up for not having items of other sort. Not to mention TPC would be strict in what goes in and what doesn't.
Albeit I don't really mind Dark Pit's inclusion nowadays, I feel him a wasted opportunity in that he could have had Brawl!Pit's moveset, or just a more diverse one; the concept of this character who's identical to another in the roster yet has a completely different moveset is amazing. A shame it couldn't have happened, even if I understand the reasoning behind it.
I'm just fine with a battlefield in FG. FD being the only choice really gimps characters who rely on stage control (sucks for you guys, DDD is all about that FD
I'm just fine with a battlefield in FG. FD being the only choice really gimps characters who rely on stage control (sucks for you guys, DDD is all about that FD
True, but there's no need to gimp characters like that; it just makes them inherently inferior in the only matchmaking mode that's actively used.
SuperLeviathan
Member
Ki: U also gets more enemies in Smash Run than Mario. Mario, Nintendo's franchise Numero Uno.
As Richie said, Smash 3DS and Ki:U share code and porting the assets was probably easy, but there's still something off about that.
As Richie said, Smash 3DS and Ki:U share code and porting the assets was probably easy, but there's still something off about that.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Besides, unless a Pokemon is using them, Pokemon items are lame. Imagine if everyone has Choice <item>.
NeonZ
Member
I couldn't find the source, but I'm pretty sure that Sakurai talked about the enemies - they were made with models and design that could fit into Smash with little problem, which is why there were so many. I don't think he said anything about the items though.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Hilariously enough I don't think I've hated any of the KIU items, even Daybreak.
The ones I do hate seem to stem from Zelda (the Beetle and the Gust Bellows).
The ones I do hate seem to stem from Zelda (the Beetle and the Gust Bellows).
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Beetle isn't that bad and it always get reactions from friends, but Gust Bellows, it's just too much. My friends always complained how broken it is. Well, there is smart way to avoid Gust Bellows but it's just situational.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Pretty Much. There are few situations where I managed to avoid everything Gust Bellows threw at me until last few seconds, I died. ;_;
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I just generally hate stuff that require mashing the direction repeatedly or else you die.
Even Galaga Boss is annoying.
Even Galaga Boss is annoying.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I was playing Melee last night and a bom-omb spawned directly in front of me as I was charging my forward smash as Ganondorf, in All Star. I died instantly. I was on the second to last stage...
So at least they didn't make that mistake again, and Smash 4 has the best All Star set up, with hazard-less stages, no items, and a logical order of fighters.
I can't even imagine the frustration of All Star with gust bellows.
So at least they didn't make that mistake again, and Smash 4 has the best All Star set up, with hazard-less stages, no items, and a logical order of fighters.
I can't even imagine the frustration of All Star with gust bellows.
Green Mamba
Member
SSB4's All-Star mode is fairly good about stages, but it still has some stinkers in there. Kalos Pokemon League, Gamer, Orbital Gate Assault, Wily Castle, Wrecking Crew, Flat Zone X, and Pac-Land have no business being in All-Star, at least not how they currently are. It still feels kind of like you're reliant on the luck of the stage draw. Better than it has been, though.
Diddy Kong
Banned
hit the nail on the head. can't stand any of the stages you listed in all star. especially gamer.
balladofwindfishes
Member
We'll get there. I think they eventually plan for 99% of stages to be 8-Player ready and hazard free.
Would make it easier to add an "All Star" toggle for stage selection too. Which obviously is a requested feature.
But man, nothing like 5 Pokeballs spawning on a pinball match of Temple or a required fight on New Pork City every single run to really make you appreciate Smash 4 AS.
Except AS is getting so obnoxiously long, Smash 5 might have to consider toning it down some how.
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