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[Zubz]

So, does anyone else half-expect Pichu back at this point? Ivysaur was one of my favorite characters in Brawl from the sheer ludicrousness of her inclusion, but she was also a fantastic anti-air character, and the changes Project M made to her were great (Solar Beam was nearly impossible to pull off on an opponent, but so satisfying if you did). However, unlike Squirtle & Ivysaur, Pichu doesn't have to be a packaged deal, and instead of adding to the glut of Gen 1 Pokemon/Fighters for the Late SNES/Early N64 fight in All-Star mode, he'd be a much-needed Gen 2 rep!

More importantly, however, he's a clone, meaning he wouldn't be too hard to implement, and if balanced a bit better, his gimmick could be a blast! I mean, all electrical attacks damage him, and he's one of the lightest characters as-is, but if they did a lot more damage/more knockback to compensate, it'd be a fun risk/reward mechanic! Just make sure he's also the 3rd fastest character, and I could see Pichu being a legitimate threat. Plus, I think he's pretty popular on those "Exit Polls" for the Ballot, though I think the only hands-down conclusive things we're getting from those are K. Rool and Banjo being roughly in the Top 5. Either way, although I'd prefer to see Squirtle & Ivysaur back, I'm actually starting to feel Pichu. The only knocks against him at this point are that he was a joke character in Melee, and Pokemon characters are chosen by The Pokemon Company, who have no reason to be pushing Pichu right now. Jigglypuff's a Smash tradition, Greninja advertises Gen 6, and the other Pokemon reps have always been popular. Pichu, on the other hand, was added to get a Gen 2 character in Melee, but didn't have much staying power as a mascot.

They should add Shuk from that Xenorblades game. He has a cool laser sword and likes to feel it.

I'm trying to think of a Shadahan joke that wouldn't be tasteless, because there's definitely one in there. But I just can't.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

If the majority of the Sm4sh character DLC is veteran characters, I'll be pretty disappointed.

I'm cool with Wolf coming back, but I don't want DLC to just be a dumping ground for old characters that Sakurai couldn't fit into the regular development schedule. I want it to be a dumping ground for NEW characters that Sakurai couldn't fit into the regular development schedule!

Vets are HUGELY popular in Japan from what I've heard. Like, hyped more than new comers, apparently.

So, does anyone else half-expect Pichu back at this point?

Yes, I think of the three cut Pokemon left, Pichu has the best chance. It's not a good chance, but I think more than Ivysaur or Squirtle. Mostly this comes from the heavy Melee nostalgia focus Smash 4 seems to have tried to go for, Pichu's ease of being added because he's a clone (or would be semi-cloned like Roy) and he had a unique gimmick that could be balanced around better. He also reps a generation that has nothing in Smash except some random Pokeball Pokemon and only one music remix that's been around since Melee, where it was Pichu's theme.

Pichu was also the focus of a pretty cute little DLC side quest in HeartGold/SoulSilver. I think one of Pichu's alts could get a notched ear to reference this side quest.

Ideally, in addition to Melee's 3 alts, Pichu's new 4 would be 2 Minuns and 2 Plusles. I know that probably wouldn't happen, but I'd really enjoy that, especially considering Plusle/Minun were likely going to be Pichu's replacement in Brawl, much like Toon Link was to Young Link.

 

[Neiteio]

I'm happy with any vets coming back. So yes, I'd be happy to see Pichu. Always funny seeing the disparity between Pichu and Bowser.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

At least Pichu would get a proper run cycle and not the... uhh... whatever Pichu was doing in Melee to run.

Probably the jankiest looking animation the series has ever had.

Which is funny because iirc, Pichu has the most unique animations in Melee of any clone.

 

[KLatin Scelus]

I wouldn't mind Pichu honestly.

He's the type of character you use when you want to give yourself a challenge.

"Beat Classic on 9.0 with Pichu without losing a stock"

That should be an achievement...

 

[Village]

Pichu is already in the game though

Also that seems weird because its like

" hey pokemon company wanna push more pikachu"

" No,we just got lucario working. We don't even need to do that anymore "

 

[Neoxon]

Just make Isabelle a semi-clone of Villager, with some tweaked moves (i.e. a tether recovery with the fishing rod!) and a new Final Smash ("Public Works!").

Isn't she already an Assist Trophy? Maybe for Smash 5, sure, but her AT kinda rules her out for this game.

As for Pichu, if I recall correctly, the Pichu of Melee is Pikachu now.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

As for Pichu, if I recall correctly, the Pichu of Melee is Pikachu now.

Because of one alt and a wall jump

That's not really a replacement. That's just a nod to the character and a buff for Pikachu. A super fast, super light Pikachu can work nicely and feel unique.

 

[Neoxon]

Because of one alt and a wall jump

That's not really a replacement. That's just a nod to the character and a buff for Pikachu. A super fast, super light Pikachu can work nicely and feel unique.

And a Final Smash that shouldn't be known to Pikachu unless Volt Tackle was learned as a Pichu.

I'm already thankful we dodged a bullet with Roy & that he's only a semi-clone, I'm not sure how much they can differentiate Pichu besides taking advantage of the rage mechanic via Pichu giving itself damage.

 

[Ryce]

I’ve learned that references and superficial similarities don’t mean anything. I thought Roy Koopa and Marth’s Roy color scheme would prevent Roy from being included, but I was wrong. I don’t think goggles and a wall jump are going to keep Pichu out.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

And a Final Smash that shouldn't be known to Pikachu unless Volt Tackle was learned as a Pichu.

I'm already thankful we dodged a bullet with Roy & that he's only a semi-clone, I'm not sure how much they can differentiate Pichu besides taking advantage of the rage mechanic via Pichu giving itself damage.

- Make him faster.
- Cap self damage at 50% (like other characters who do self damage, most are capped at 100%, except Charizard for some reason)
- Below this 50% theshhold, "Static" is in effect and enemies take 1-3% damage when attacking Pichu with non-projectiles.
- Self damage is only for Smash attacks, pummel and thunder and is only 1%
- Update the animation of up special so Pichu doesn't squash and stretch, but just sort of leaps, since Agility is different than Quick Attack.
- Change Pichu's side special entirely. Make it Wild Charge and have it function like Flame Charge, rather than Skull Bash, which Pichu can't even learn. A quick charge, then rushes straight ahead, doing a nice bit of self damage, but also a decent bit of knockback. It's a similar move in spirit to Skull Bash, while being unique, a move Pichu can actually learn, and playing on the self damage gimmick, but turning it into a trade off for this one specific move rather than just an innate mechanic.
- Change his standard attacks to have new animations, except his Up Smash as it was unique anyway.
- Give him a new walk/run cycle so he doesn't just vibrate weirdly when running.
- Remove the ability to crawl that he would have inherited from Pikachu because he sleeps.
- Pichu heals 1% at a very slow rate while crouching as a minor easter egg and a slight way to offset self damage.

I’ve learned that references and superficial similarities don’t mean anything. I thought Roy Koopa and Marth’s Roy color scheme would prevent Roy from being included, but I was wrong. I don’t think goggles and a wall jump are going to keep Pichu out.

RE: Marth's color

I legit think this is a reason Roy was so drastically altered visually. It's crazy, but there could be some confusion between the two since Marth's costume actually looks exactly like Roy's body, and on the 3DS it might get confusing.

 

[Zubz]

Isn't she already an Assist Trophy? Maybe for Smash 5, sure, but her AT kinda rules her out for this game.

In that context, he was explaining how Isabelle could work as a Smash fighter; someone scoffed at the idea and he just gave a hypothetical "How she could work." It's less about her being getting in and more about how she'd work. Even then, though, plenty of people want characters in regardless of whether or not they already fill a role. I mean, I'm riding the "That's a clone with an abysmal, alternate design in Pyrosphere" train, but I'm still pushing for Ridley. It's a ballot for what you'd want to see in the game, not what you'd want within reason. It's why Banjo's still crushing it in the polls. Sakurai won't go for it, but that doesn't mean someone still can't push for Isabelle. I mean, plenty of us are pushing for Takamaru, right?

That's not really a replacement. That's just a nod to the character and a buff for Pikachu. A super fast, super light Pikachu can work nicely and feel unique.

It's a popular fan theory, though. The idea is that Melee's Pichu evolved and became Brawl/4's Pikachu between games because of all of those things, plus Volt Tackle. Seeing how this game is ultimately canon-less without the Subspace Emissary, I'm with you on those probably just being nods to a character that was never supposed to come back, but I've always liked that idea that it never really did leave, and that it just evolved instead. Either way, even if that was a factor, it could always just be a new Pichu. Maybe it could always be the Notch-Eared Pichu by default? I mean, like, it was the last time Pichu was relevant, anyway, so...

 

[Neiteio]

I’ve learned that references and superficial similarities don’t mean anything. I thought Roy Koopa and Marth’s Roy color scheme would prevent Roy from being included, but I was wrong. I don’t think goggles and a wall jump are going to keep Pichu out.

Yeah, Pichu seems possible. And people would buy the shit out of him. He's kawaii as fuck.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

It's anecdotal evidence and all but all the non-hardcore people I know despise Pichu. Making token tweaks to his moves here or there wouldn't change that for people who just fundamentally don't like the idea of a smaller, weaker annoying Pikachu. Sakurai in not even bothering to plan him for Brawl seems to know this.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It's anecdotal evidence and all but all the non-hardcore people I know despise Pichu. Making token tweaks to his moves here or there wouldn't change that for people who just fundamentally don't like the idea of a smaller, weaker annoying Pikachu. Sakurai in not even bothering to plan him for Brawl seems to know this.

A lot of people said the same thing about Roy. That nobody really ever liked him and he was hated and was the worst idea ever for DLC, and look where we are today.

For Brawl, Pichu's Toon Link style replacement was planned, but Brawl ran out of development time because the Subspace was a black hole of resources and Sega was messing around with Sonic, and so they couldn't get Plusle/Minun into Brawl.

Pichu is in a bit of an awkward spot though, as unlike Mario and Marth, Pikachu hasn't received any major changes since Melee. While Doc and Roy can come back fairly close to their Melee selves, but still be different due to their bases being changed, Pichu doesn't have that luxury. A fully brought back Pichu doesn't come out of the gate with a unique special move like both Roy and Doc did.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

A lot of people said the same thing about Roy. That nobody really ever liked him and he was hated and was the worst idea ever for DLC, and look where we are today.

For Brawl, Pichu's Toon Link style replacement was planned, but Brawl ran out of development time because the Subspace was a black hole of resources and Sega was messing around with Sonic, and so they couldn't get Plusle/Minun into Brawl.

Pichu is in a bit of an awkward spot though, as unlike Mario and Marth, Pikachu hasn't received any major changes since Melee. While Doc and Roy can come back fairly close to their Melee selves, but still be different due to their bases being changed, Pichu doesn't have that luxury. A fully brought back Pichu doesn't come out of the gate with a unique special move like both Roy and Doc did.

Disagree, Roy was a super popular casual character even if I think he was mostly a fad online due to TEH PHIRE and MAH BOI stuff. Also translators have talked about how praimai doesn't actually mean Plusle-Minum but some slang for 'random' instead.

Kind of like with Young Link, it feels like Pichu advocates are starting from the conclusion that "all vets must come back" and putting lipstick on the pigs among them so as to pass them off as easier to stomach.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Unlike Young Link, though, Pichu hasn't been completely replaced by a more refined and de-cloned character. Pichu will be the only character from Melee that never left Melee and had no direct replacement.

It feels to me that Pichu should come back on that principle alone. It would be tying up 15 year old loose ends.

 

[Pizza]

I like pichu because he's easy and rad.

He's better than pikachu (imo, I liked gold and silver better lol)

He's got the exact same moveset as pikachu with minor tweaks: he's smaller with a different voice and hurts himself

And hes a veteran of the series, and the only "joke" character

I hope he comes back, I'd rather him than squirtle tbh

 

[Ryce]

Also translators have talked about how praimai doesn't actually mean Plusle-Minum but some slang for 'random' instead.

It's the opposite, actually. "Pra & Mai" is used as shorthand for Plusle & Minun by Japanese speakers. You can do a Google image search for "PuraMai" (プラマ&#12452, and Plusle & Minun turn up. Plusle & Minun haters made that "pramai means random" nonsense up, and everyone ate it up. It's yet to be corroborated by anyone who actually speaks Japanese.

 

[The Bankslammer]

i'd never heard the idea that "pramai" was supposed to mean "random" so i looked it up and lmao what is this. "mai" is a prefix, first of all, lol. and it's used for events or time periods (e.g. every day, every week, every night), not people or objects. and "player" would likely be shortened to "pre" (for "pureeyaa"), not "pra," though romanization of borrowed words can get pretty wonky (i particularly like "boucer" for bowser in melee). is this really a thing that's been going around for 7 years lol

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

If they want veterans with no replacement, Squirtle and Ivy would probably take priority along with Snake or the Climbers if their issues got worked out. (although if they are worried about criticism that they're "selling old things that should have never been taken out," I can see Wolf being the last veteran added period)

Again it feels like fans, instead of trying to sell a character on why they would be great, they sell them on why they wouldn't be completely awful. Not "this character has so and so personality and can have this new playstyle" but "this newcomer has a chance of not being a complete clone and this veteran couldn have its loathed aspects from 2001 maybe slightly changed." in other words, it's a tough sell in terms of all but the most maniac of fans

 

[Ryce]

i'd never heard the idea that "pramai" was supposed to mean "random" so i looked it up and lmao what is this. "mai" is a prefix, first of all, lol. and it's used for events or time periods (e.g. every day, every week, every night), not people or objects. and "player" would likely be shortened to "pre" (for "pureeyaa"), not "pra," though romanization of borrowed words can get pretty wonky (i particularly like "boucer" for bowser in melee). is this really a thing that's been going around for 7 years lol

I believe "random" is called "omakase" internally anyway, making the "pramai" theory even more nonsensical.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

instead of trying to sell a character on why they would be great

- There's very little second gen representation in Smash at all. One music remix that's Pichu's original credits theme from Melee and some random Pokeballs (and it lost Wobuffet!). And I guess a very, very loose interpretation of Pokemon Stadium 2 might make it rep the second gen... but not really. Unfortunately for the second gen, there really aren't any iconic 2nd gen Pokemon built for Smash, besides Pichu. 30% of Pokemon's history is entirely ignored for playable reps (2nd and 3rd gen).

- Heart Gold and Soul Silver are fan favorite games from the series. Generally regarded as the best remakes Pokemon has had. Pichu plays an important role in an optional bonus side mission. Notched ear Pichu was used a lot in marketing.

- There are no first stage Pokemon in Smash at all. We have three second stages, two third stages and a legendary that doesn't evolve at all.

- Pichu was the primary mascot for baby Pokemon and breeding in general, one of the most important elements of high level Pokemon.

- Pichu naps when he crouches and that's super cute.

 

[Mariner]

October update:

- Squirtle (with new Down Special and Final Smash)
- Ivysaur (with new Down Special and Final Smash)
- Saffron City 64

YES YES YES YES YES

 

[kirby_fox]

I've been calling for Pichu for awhile. I think Nintendo knows there was a huge set of fans who love Melee and hated Brawl, and they want Smash 4 to be a return to the series for Melee fans. It's why Mewtwo was back, it's why Roy returned and it's why I've suspected Pichu to come back.

Spoiler

Plus, it gives TRU another exclusive amiibo!

If there's priority of who is to return at this point, I think Ice Climbers were given up on working and sadly won't return. Snake was a one and done deal, and Konami moving on from both Hayter and console gaming altogether makes me think there's an unlikely return there. Young Link, while he has fire arrows and a slightly different moveset, was spiritually replaced with Toon Link and is probably not even considered an option. Squirtle and Ivysaur, while having nice movesets, aren't going to be big enough to stand alone like Charizard-- and I feel that if one comes back they both have to as Sakurai wouldn't want to disappoint fans.

All that leaves is Pichu and Wolf being in the plans all along, thus leaving those 2 slots they found. For marketing reasons, I don't expect the poll character(s) to release until after the poll has been looked at and really "studied" -- in order to continue speculation and talk about the title. Getting the rights for a third party character too would take some time, even if they started early.

 

[Lights and Waves]

I really don't care for Pichu. I think Squirtle is much more popular and would make a better DLC character. Make his final smash the Hydro Pump from the anime.

 

[JazzmanZ]

I like how people have moved onto wanting Pichu back now that Roy is in.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Pichu is worst baby mon though.

 

[JCX]

I would rather have Zubat join smash than have Pichu return.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Pichu is worst baby mon though.

I would rather have Zubat join smash than have Pichu return.

 

[Ryce]

Standalone cross-buy character - Mewtwo
Set 1 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, newcomer) - Roy, Lucas, Ryu (human set)
Set 2 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, newcomer) - Pichu, Wolf, Dixie Kong (animal set)
Standalone ballot character - ???

Would you guys be okay with that?

 

[Maengun1]

If the majority of the Sm4sh character DLC is veteran characters, I'll be pretty disappointed.

This. I was annoyed when everyone was asking for Roy to come back. Then he did, fine, congrats to the fans. Now people are talking about Wolf? And PICHU??!

When the Smash Ballot was announced my mind was overwhelmed with limitless possibilities for new characters, not "damn can't wait for every every boring clone to return for $5 a pop."

More Ryus please

 

[Starphoenix]

Standalone cross-buy character - Mewtwo
Set 1 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, newcomer) - Roy, Lucas, Ryu (human set)
Set 2 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, newcomer) - Pichu, Wolf, Dixie Kong (animal set)
Standalone ballot character - ???

Would you guys be okay with that?

Change Pichu to Ice Climbers and I'd be fine.

 

[Pizza]

This taunt alone would be worth the $4 for pichu

 

[Muzy72]

Standalone cross-buy character - Mewtwo
Set 1 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, newcomer) - Roy, Lucas, Ryu (human set)
Set 2 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, newcomer) - Pichu, Wolf, Dixie Kong (animal set)
Standalone ballot character - ???

Would you guys be okay with that?

That's exactly what I'm expecting.

 

[Troubled Bat]

If another pokemon was to appear. Give me Ivysaur/Squirtle. Would prefer Ivysaur more.

 

[Varjet]

Well, there weren't any traces of unused files for Pichu in Brawl, suggesting Sakurai had no intention of bringing him back, unlike Mewtwo and Roy. Hopefully, that stance hasn't changed.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Well, there weren't any traces of unused files for Pichu in Brawl, suggesting Sakurai had no intention of bringing him back, unlike Mewtwo and Roy. Hopefully, that stance hasn't changed.

His replacement was in the files. Much like Toon Link replacing Young Link, Pichu would have been replaced by Plusle and Minun who probably would have been Pichu, except slightly decloned and in a pair somehow.

 

[Richie]

Saffron City ain't coming back. The Pokemon in that stage would have to be upgraded graphically for modern standards. The tornadoes in Hyrule Temple had a much better chance at getting away with remaining unchanged and they went and updated them. Love the stage, but it ain't happening.

 

[Green Mamba]

Yeah, I've kind of thought about that for Saffron City, like the Pokemon Company might take issue with ugly sprite Pokemon.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Also they'd need to add the egg capsule back to the game because of Chansey.

 

[Doctor Rover]

You're all missing the bigger picture

Pichu is Pikachu now right?

How about Pikachu from N64/Melee as RAICHU?

 

[JB-the-Hunter]

If Pichu comes back and the Ice Climbers don't I swear...

 

[balladofwindfishes]

If Pichu comes back and the Ice Climbers don't I swear...

There's no technical reasons to keep Pichu out of Smash. At this point it's just a matter of interest in the character, and I could see that picking up now that we have pretty much every Melee vet except Pichu.

Ice Climbers have a very real reason for not returning. A reason that's not easy to fix. If that reason didn't exist, they'd be in the game without issue.

Pichu's only reason is because he's Pichu and there's better choices for characters. Not really all that big of a deal compared to Ice Climbers' problem.

 

[Troubled Bat]

Honestly, it'd be cool if Sakurai threw out a curve ball, giving us another retro character like Sukapon/Mach Rider/Some other retro (unrelated to the ballot).

Spoiler

or give us Isaac, so IntelliHeath can lose his shit. Lol

 

[IntelliHeath]

Standalone cross-buy character - Mewtwo
Set 1 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, 3rd Party) - Roy, Lucas, Ryu (human set)
Set 2 (Melee vet, Brawl vet, 3rd Party) - Ice Climbers, Wolf, Snake
Standalone ballot character - ???

Would you guys be okay with that?

Shuuuuush, let me dream about Set 2 DLC.

Anyway, serious question here.

Why did people suddenly jump on PIchu Train now? If I have to make a decision between Squirtle, Ivysaur and Pichu, then I would go with Ivysaur over other two pokemon. I'm still not sure if we would see any of those three pokemon.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Why people suddenly jump on PIchu Train now?

Roy came out and was amazing, renewing faith in the Smash Team's ability to de-clone Melee vets. Both Doc and Mewtwo came back nearly completely unchanged (and bad) and people were pretty down on Melee clones. Then Roy comes out with his amazing redesign and being top tier and people are hyped about Melee characters again. But there's only one Melee character left.

And Pichu is a cutie

 

[L Thammy]

Honestly, it'd be cool if Sakurai threw out a curve ball, giving us another retro character like Sukapon/Mach Rider/Some other retro (unrelated to the ballot).

Spoiler

or give us Isaac, so IntelliHeath can lose his shit. Lol

I secretly hope that Sakurai ignores the ballot and just adds in someone awesome that no one knows about. And Mach Rider totally fits the bill:

 

[Waluigilicious]

Bomberman.

Bomberman is all I want.

Bomberman is all I need.

I swear if he gets in I will main him no matter how he plays.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Saffron City ain't coming back. The Pokemon in that stage would have to be upgraded graphically for modern standards. The tornadoes in Hyrule Temple had a much better chance at getting away with remaining unchanged and they went and updated them. Love the stage, but it ain't happening.

I just realized that Tornadoes in Hyrule Castle 64 is very similar to Mega Man's tornado (UAIR)

Yeah, I've kind of thought about that for Saffron City, like the Pokemon Company might take issue with ugly sprite Pokemon.

After Project M's Saffron City, I'm not sure if I would like to see it in Smash 4 because of characters' models being bigger this time.