Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Doesn't FFVIII do that
Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
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Doesn't FFVIII do that
Karsticles
Member
Inconsequentially. There isn't really a strategic element to it.
Golden Sun might not really require much more representation; (though it'd be nice if they reinstated Isaac as an assist trophy, even without updating him to reflect his Dark Dawn design) but not featuring any more of its music would be a waste. A reasonable amount wouldn't even need to be rearranged - direct rips of the Isaac battle theme or Venus Lighthouse would fit in much better than anything written for the GBA's limited sound capabilities has any right to.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Golden Sun 2, thankfully, introduces enemies that reset your Djinni so you are not encouraged to summon spam. The second game is much more balanced combat-wise, but I will admit that random mook encounters are a pushover.
balladofwindfishes
Member
This is like someone posting RIP Metaknight because he was announced super late.
Imagine if you were an Ivysaur or Ice Climbers main and didn't have a basically guaranteed character to look forward to.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
British Wolf > Texas Walker Ranger Wolf
DICKS AHOY
Banned
I forget who it was who was clamoring for Donkey Kong Jr., but this made a pretty good case for him to me, and I've been pretty against him getting in before Dixie and K. Rool.
The non-arcade side of the franchise is more than big enough to justify a 3rd rep, but Jr. as a neat arcade tribute who acts like regular DK's Young Link would be neat as a hidden surprise in Smash 5.
The non-arcade side of the franchise is more than big enough to justify a 3rd rep, but Jr. as a neat arcade tribute who acts like regular DK's Young Link would be neat as a hidden surprise in Smash 5.
balladofwindfishes
Member
That was me. I think DKC is adequately represented and it's time for the arcade games to get their time to shine.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Yeah, the battle graphic aged pretty bad from what I saw. I really need to replay the games.
Yeah, I would be happy if we are getting Isaac in any form. We already have two songs from Golden Sun franchise so that's better than nothjng.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
DKC's the 2nd highest selling game on the SNES, DK64 the 7th highest on the N64, DKCR the 15th on the Wii (though I think it roughly sold 2 million more than DK64) and the other DKC titles were still strong sellers. That half of the IP is enormous and is currently represented by a lot of jungle stages and two characters. A third rep isn't going to wildly push things over the edge for how much of a focus there is on DKC, and it's not like the arcade-side of DK is non-existent in Smash.
Jr. has retro-charm, Source-Gaming made a really nice case for him being a cool addition, but I get either my dix or golden crocodile moobs first.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The arcade games are older, more well known and more influential than the DKC games. They're still getting games released today in the form of Mario vs Donkey Kong.
That rich history is repped by two items and one of the worst stages in the history of Smash.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
Might as well add in Jumpman too while you are at it, if we're all on board the Ignore Popular DKC Characters for Arcade Throwbacks Train.
Donkey Kong arcade has the King of Kong documentary film and of course is one of the unfortunate faces of the rather piss poor Pixels. DKC has yet to make the silver screen. Donkey Kong arcade has had multiple Simpsons reference. DKC none. In terms of general public awareness the arcade games are still bigger than DKC. Can't compete with that level of popular culture.
Do I really have to explain to you why that's literally the most stupid scrapping the bottom of the barrel argument?
balladofwindfishes
Member
Donkey Kong Jr is more well known than Dixie. Ask a random person who Dixie Kong is and they'll give you funny looks. Ask them who Donkey Kong Jr is, and they'll either know the original Donkey Kong and assume it's a sequel or side character or something, or just outright know who he is.
DKC never got the whole culture surrounding it that the classic arcade games did. When DK makes cameos in stuff outside of games, like cartoons or movies, it isn't the DKC Donkey Kong that's used.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
and DKC wasn't sullied by being in Pixels, check and mate
I still think, especially given how Sakurai himself sees Smash's audience skewing towards younger players, someone like Dixie and Cranky (I will admit K. Rool probably means jack all to a kid who grew up on the GCN and/or Wii) is going to be immediately more recognizable than Jr. to most of the Smash audience. Jr. is more like Duck Hunt than Little Mac; absolutely a beloved retro character, but unlike Mac while he's not the most obscure character ever, I think calling them an 'icon' in today's day and age feels like a stretch. Punch-Out on the other hand despite relative obscurity in modern-Japan from my perspective was always considered one of the big defining games of the NES in the US and had fucking Mike Tyson headline a game. Like the original Donkey Kong is enormous even today, but that's not the game Jr. came from, and he doesn't seem to live on in pop-culture the same way Punch-Out/Little Mac did. Not that Dixie's is anywhere near 'iconic' mind you, but she's recognizable to younger Nintendo fans and 'relevant' to her own franchise still, which were obviously big factors behind lot of Smash 4's newcomers get in.
Also it's worth pointing out the original Donkey Kong game has already had its two main characters playable since the first Smash, the main item of DK arcade has been the most powerful item in Smash since day one and the series in general pretty regularly talks about the arcade games. It's not like Wario Land where Smash awkwardly ignores half a franchises' existence and there's this weird big gap in the character's history as a result; it's been regularly referenced and featured from SSB through to Smash 4.
Kinda aside since replaying DK'94 recently reminded me how weird Mario vs Doneky Kong's direction was, but calling anything after the first game a continuation of the arcade-style DK feels disingenuous; the sequels have little to do with anything in the original Donkey Kong arcade games beyond the hammer items and Pauline cameos.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Not really any different than how any other series evolves. The Mario vs DK series is meant to be a continuation of the arcade universe.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
The original DKC literally has more to do with the original Donkey Kong games than every Mario vs. Donkey Kong sequel has at this point.
They very quickly steered that spin off towards something weird and stupid and I don't even really get why, given how different DK'94/MvsDK were to Mario and DK's main-line games. It was change for the sake of change when the first couple games were already filling a neat puzzle-platforming niche!
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I was talking about the voice acting. Seriously his delivery was just so perfect to Wolf.
British Wolf can't howl, whimper, and have fun with this thang.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Oh, yea, losing his Brawl voice would be bad.
Most of Brawl's voice acting was bad, but Wolf is a big exception to this.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Star Fox Zero could just make out the British accent (since it's not like it's genuine anyway) was Wolf trying to sound fancy back when he was first hired by Andross in SF64 and he just says fuck it and regresses back to his gruff Southern-voice he had in Assault onwards.
Everything involving Star Wolf post-Star Fox 64 is the only part of the franchise I'm going to genuinely miss when Zero soft-reboots things. Even Krystal just annoys me for how pointless the franchise change was for Dinosaur Planet.
Everything involving Star Wolf post-Star Fox 64 is the only part of the franchise I'm going to genuinely miss when Zero soft-reboots things. Even Krystal just annoys me for how pointless the franchise change was for Dinosaur Planet.
I'm definitely on board for DK Jr. and I like Source Gaming's take on him - some choices I disagree with (taking moves from Mario and the math bit, mostly), but there are some brilliant little touches like giving him Stanley's bug sprayer.
I'd hesitate to overestimate the arcade version's mindshare, though, among the younger generation. I was talking to a tableful of college-aged gamers and none of them had ever heard of it - I showed them a video and they said "Oh, so THAT'S where the Smash Bros. stage comes from!"
And Junior? He's probably more obscure than Duck Hunt dog at this point.
I'd hesitate to overestimate the arcade version's mindshare, though, among the younger generation. I was talking to a tableful of college-aged gamers and none of them had ever heard of it - I showed them a video and they said "Oh, so THAT'S where the Smash Bros. stage comes from!"
And Junior? He's probably more obscure than Duck Hunt dog at this point.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Eh, Duck Hunt has a fair bit of moves that aren't from... Well, 'Duck Hunt', but it still falls under the same NES Zapper theme. I don't think it'd be too awkward for DK Jr. to similarly have moves from DK and DK3.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Same, they're the best.
What's hilarious is that it's not even Wolf's Assault VA, but he was clearly replicating him.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Grant Goodeve is semi-retired, so we're probably never going to hear his Assault voice again.
Bizarrely, Jay Ward voices Wolf in Brawl, but only voices the training mode raccoon in 643D. How strange.
Which thinking back, wow. Knew that voice was familiar, but never realized until just now it's basically just Brawl Wolf except less rugged. Guess they knew the voice was popular from Brawl and found a way to work it into 643D
IMDB also has him listed as "unknown" voices for Smash 4. Is he in the credits or something?
Edit: Yea, wow. I thought that raccoon had a really great voice for being a throw away character and now it's blowing my mind that I never made the connection. Still can't get over it literally being the Brawl Wolf voice.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
He was. But I guess it's for the Lylat Cruise and Norfair stages.
Wait, he was the raccoon?
balladofwindfishes
Member
He was totally the raccoon. And that's totally Wolf's voice with a little less gruff to it.
Same here! I think there's actually quite a few Isaac fans around, but most just seem to be quiet and patient.
Unfortunately there probably isn't going to be much more DLC to give him a better chance at appearing, though. Maybe we'll at least get a Mii costume. d:
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
My "whose cock do I have to suck in order to get these characters into Smash" list:
Isa Jo
Ryota Ippongi (or anyone from Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents)
Isaac
Shovel Knight
Out of all them, the only one I think has a chance is Shovel Knight, and only because of the rumour.
Isa Jo
Ryota Ippongi (or anyone from Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents)
Isaac
Shovel Knight
Out of all them, the only one I think has a chance is Shovel Knight, and only because of the rumour.
balladofwindfishes
Member
SourceGaming did an article on how Ganondorf is deceptively more faithful to Ganondorf than people tend to give credit.
Breaks down his animations and notes the ones that are specific references to Ganondorf.
I like Ganondorf the way he is, although I would like some of his remaining flip kicks to be changed (mostly his aerials) because they don't match Ganondorf at all.
Captain Falcon has a generic "strong man" moveset, just kicks and punches. And for Ganondorf, he's so incredibly different from Captain Falcon, despite sharing a handful of animations, that he almost feels unique. I could almost believe newer players not even making the connection between them unless it was specifically pointed out.
Breaks down his animations and notes the ones that are specific references to Ganondorf.
I like Ganondorf the way he is, although I would like some of his remaining flip kicks to be changed (mostly his aerials) because they don't match Ganondorf at all.
Captain Falcon has a generic "strong man" moveset, just kicks and punches. And for Ganondorf, he's so incredibly different from Captain Falcon, despite sharing a handful of animations, that he almost feels unique. I could almost believe newer players not even making the connection between them unless it was specifically pointed out.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
Thank god Sakurai didnt make DK Jr a clone in Melee because that means he probably is not even thinking about him. It feels like a lot of people who say him aren't thinking about good characters, but about "who can get in for DK who isn't K. Rool?" Because seriously, relevance is treated as his big albatross around Rool's neck but Jr gets a free pass because Arcade Representation? He wasn't even in the arcade game anyone cares about since it's always the original that gets cameos. Pauline is a better choice of anyone though that's not saying much.
Also Ganondorf movesets apologism is cliche as heck, I'd prefer reading about ways to change him while retaining his overall feel, to compromise for all his fans, not just the ones who main him
Also Ganondorf movesets apologism is cliche as heck, I'd prefer reading about ways to change him while retaining his overall feel, to compromise for all his fans, not just the ones who main him
balladofwindfishes
Member
I think this line sums up my feelings on Ganondorf
Ganondorf has no consistent fighting style in his own games. The only consistent style Ganondorf has is his brutality with punches, chokes, slams and kicks. He uses those as secondary attacks, but he uses them in all the games he's been in. And those consistent moves are represented in Ganondorf's moveset.
He feels like a Triforce of Power user. When playing Ganondorf, you feel like an absolute beast because enemies die at ridiculous percents and Ganondorf is yelling and laughing and just generally acting evil and it's almost a power trip. There's power behind what Ganondorf does, and ultimately, that's the core offensive trait of Ganondorf. He's pure power.
Which is why I think they just need to clean up some of his silly rapid flip kick air attacks, and he'd be fine. Maybe change Captain Falcon's down throw as well, so Ganondorf has the one armed slam into the ground, as it fits Ganondorf better.
He's also a pretty good reminder the ballot isn't a popularity contest. Ganondorf was the #1 most requested Zelda character for Melee and only made it in at the last minute due to an easy to recycle model and having a similar body type to Captain Falcon. Despite being one of the most requested, Ganondorf still didn't make the original cut.
Ganondorf has no consistent fighting style in his own games. The only consistent style Ganondorf has is his brutality with punches, chokes, slams and kicks. He uses those as secondary attacks, but he uses them in all the games he's been in. And those consistent moves are represented in Ganondorf's moveset.
He feels like a Triforce of Power user. When playing Ganondorf, you feel like an absolute beast because enemies die at ridiculous percents and Ganondorf is yelling and laughing and just generally acting evil and it's almost a power trip. There's power behind what Ganondorf does, and ultimately, that's the core offensive trait of Ganondorf. He's pure power.
Which is why I think they just need to clean up some of his silly rapid flip kick air attacks, and he'd be fine. Maybe change Captain Falcon's down throw as well, so Ganondorf has the one armed slam into the ground, as it fits Ganondorf better.
And then add Beast Ganon as a character
He's also a pretty good reminder the ballot isn't a popularity contest. Ganondorf was the #1 most requested Zelda character for Melee and only made it in at the last minute due to an easy to recycle model and having a similar body type to Captain Falcon. Despite being one of the most requested, Ganondorf still didn't make the original cut.
Dr. Buni
Member
An Ouedan/Elite Beat Agents character in Smash would be wonderful.My "whose cock do I have to suck in order to get these characters into Smash" list:
Isa Jo
Ryota Ippongi (or anyone from Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents)
Isaac
Shovel Knight
Out of all them, the only one I think has a chance is Shovel Knight, and only because of the rumour.
I suggest Assist Trophy were every Smasher gets individualized HEEEEEEEELP screen close-ups after summoning the Oundan/EBA.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
Yeah, they've done a decent job changing him up slightly with each iteration. Aside from a few aerials, I think Ganondorf's alright.
Red Arremer
Member
I actually wrote a little article about this topic myself, and suggested it to PushDustIn (either as standalone or supplement to the Ganondorf article), though it seems it didn't make the cut. Oh well.
They were my #3 most-wanted going into Brawl (I didn't care as much about Ridley back then). My hype for the games/characters have simmered down since then, but I'd be ecstatic if they added the EBA!
I doubt they most people remember them, though, but at the very least, I'm sure they have enough dance moves to at least give Agent J a moveset!
Yeah, I'm pretty content with Ganondorf at this point. The only thing I'd change is his Down B - and honestly, you can keep the move, just flip him around. Zoom forward/downward fist-first; make it into a knock-off Psycho Crusher or something along those lines.
As he gets more and more sword-centric appearances, though, his moveset does feel consistently off.
As he gets more and more sword-centric appearances, though, his moveset does feel consistently off.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I guess I might like the way Ganondorf is for two reasons.
1. Melee was my first experience with the character. I didn't know who he was. I had only rented Ocarina of Time and never got far enough to actually see Ganondorf (the game I rented had an Adult Link save which was the only one I played). I had no concept of how he should play.
2. It took me far longer than I care to admit to even notice he was a clone at all. He's so different mechanically from Falcon, that as a kid with no expectations of what Ganondorf was supposed to do, I assumed his Melee moves were what he did... and they just happened to be similar to Falcon in the same way both Samus and Donkey Kong had charging attacks.
1. Melee was my first experience with the character. I didn't know who he was. I had only rented Ocarina of Time and never got far enough to actually see Ganondorf (the game I rented had an Adult Link save which was the only one I played). I had no concept of how he should play.
2. It took me far longer than I care to admit to even notice he was a clone at all. He's so different mechanically from Falcon, that as a kid with no expectations of what Ganondorf was supposed to do, I assumed his Melee moves were what he did... and they just happened to be similar to Falcon in the same way both Samus and Donkey Kong had charging attacks.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
Hyrule Warriors wiped the floor with Sakurai in making a butt kicking Ganondorf, neither took tooooo much stock in canon but one came out way way more interesting in the end. I mean you can say "but if Sakurai wanted he could make Ganondorf interesting like that," but then what does that say about his intentional choice to not do that for 14 years now? That the Vision or whatever Chris Pranger claimed it was of his was to stifle what could be done with a move set?
Maybe we would get more cool move sets if the HW team developed Smash 5?
Maybe we would get more cool move sets if the HW team developed Smash 5?
Red Arremer
Member
Yes, comparing apples to oranges clearly shows what an incompetent fucknut Sakurai is.
Spinosaurus
Member
This obsession over proper representation is absurd. No one cares except for a vocal minority. It's not like Ganondorf even had much to take from by Melee, and Smash values consistency more than anything.
Ganondorf is a hella popular pick. He's satisfying to play as, and I wouldn't change a thing. That's all that matters. Why is it so hard to accept that people actually find his moveset to be well designed?
Ganondorf is a hella popular pick. He's satisfying to play as, and I wouldn't change a thing. That's all that matters. Why is it so hard to accept that people actually find his moveset to be well designed?
Counterquestion: Why is it so hard to accept that some people are disappointed with his representation?
Disclaimer: I am not one of those people; I just find it difficult too understand why it's so difficult to understand people's feelings on this sort of thing. You like something. They don't. People have opinions! Just because they disagree doesn't make them somehow wrong. It is, after all, Smash Bros., the ultimate fan service game!
Disclaimer: I am not one of those people; I just find it difficult too understand why it's so difficult to understand people's feelings on this sort of thing. You like something. They don't. People have opinions! Just because they disagree doesn't make them somehow wrong. It is, after all, Smash Bros., the ultimate fan service game!
balladofwindfishes
Member
Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf uses Warlock Punch as part of his moveset lmao. Also according to the article, Aonuma himself helped shape Ganondorf for Brawl. You know. The dude who helped invent the character. If he feels Ganondorf is a decent representation of Ganondorf, I'm inclined to trust the dude knows how Ganondorf would fight without a sword.
Also Ganondorf is an interesting character in Smash that a lot of people enjoy using. He's a power rush when you play him. Everything is so slow, brutal and with a lot of force behind it.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
I think the thing is that so called "experts" like to write these pieces and videos on why the existing Ganondorf is objectively correct and condescend to all the people who want him changed like they are kids of something. Like "people want him changed but why can't you see the brilliant design of WARLOCK PUNCH = POWER = IN CHARACTER? why would you ever want a change lmao"
Frustrating
And if some how he ever got changed I bet his mains would defend the changes any way, since they would make sense like Bowser or Pit's did
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
You should share it with us!
SenorArdilla
Member
They obviously realized something was up with heavy characters being very bad in the game. If changing Ganondorf's moveset will make him a better character then change the moveset. Because grandpa jog doesn't really scream Demon King.
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