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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot

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Being right about a hypothetical version 0.000000000001 of Smash 4 and being right about the final version are not the same so in the end the source was wrong. It was presented as the final roster and should be treated as such.
That doesn't make sense. If the roster leaked, in say, winter 2014, it would have had Ice Climbers, Chorus Boys, and no clones.

Would it have been wrong? Not at all. Just outdated. Being old information doesn't suddenly make that information wrong, just outdated.

He got 75% of the new comers correct, one cut vet correct, DLC correct, and the two he got wrong have asterisks next to them because they weren't technically wrong, just dated. His information was legit and the leak was real.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
That doesn't make sense. If the roster leaked, in say, winter 2014, it would have had Ice Climbers, Chorus Boys, and no clones.

Would it have been wrong? Not at all. Just outdated. Being old information doesn't suddenly make that information wrong, just outdated.

He got 75% of the new comers correct, one cut vet correct, DLC correct, and the two he got wrong have asterisks next to them because they weren't technically wrong, just dated. His information was legit and the leak was real.

Are we rewriting history here? At the time people were holding this leak as gospel. Then the source says Shulk is next and boom, not only is it not Shulk, but Chrom is also not a fighter. The leak stopped being credible. It then turns out Chorus Kids were also not coming.

The leak never said it was outdated info. It was presented as a leaked roster and what we should expect in the final game. Therefore it was wrong in the way it was presented.
 
That doesn't really contradict Doggie's point about him being somewhat right in retrospect about parts of the game though.

Hypothetically speaking, someone with legit links to Brawl's development who for whatever reason decided to leak the roster at the end of '06 would probably say Sonic wasn't happening and Roy/Mewtwo were still in. They'd be wrong, but in retrospect what they 'revealed' was still fact at some point of the game's development.
 
Are we rewriting history here? At the time people were holding this leak as gospel. Then the source says Shulk is next and boom, not only is it not Shulk, but Chrom is also not a fighter. The leak stopped being credible. It then turns out Chorus Kids were also not coming.

The leak never said it was outdated info. It was presented as a leaked roster and what we should expect in the final game. Therefore it was wrong in the way it was presented.

He also failed to mention several additional newcomers beyond the ones he named (Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt), and claimed that Pac-Man, Little Mac and Miis would be revealed at E3 2013. Pac-Man and Mii were revealed at E3 2014 and Little Mac uniquely some other time.

So while it's clear he might've had some information, it clearly was dated and partially wrong.
 

jph139

Member
It was false, but it wasn't fake - it was a legitimate leak from a source with inside information. Obviously it wasn't right; I mean, no one is arguing that the Chorus Kids are in the game.
 
Are we rewriting history here? At the time people were holding this leak as gospel. Then the source says Shulk is next and boom, not only is it not Shulk, but Chrom is also not a fighter. The leak stopped being credible. It then turns out Chorus Kids were also not coming.

The leak never said it was outdated info. It was presented as a leaked roster and what we should expect in the final game. Therefore it was wrong in the way it was presented.

People shouldn't have taken it as the 100% end all to the roster after Rosalina was revealed.

He also failed to mention several additional newcomers beyond the ones he named (Rosalina, Bowser Jr., Duck Hunt), and claimed that Pac-Man, Little Mac and Miis would be revealed at E3 2013. Pac-Man and Mii were revealed at E3 2014 and Little Mac uniquely some other time.

So while it's clear he might've had some information, it clearly was dated and partially wrong.

Duck Hunt is the oddball here. We know he was planned right from the start as the surprise retro character.

Rosalina we know was planned after Chrom had already been cut, likely she might not have been concepted at the time he got his info.

Bowser Jr barely even made it into Smash 4. I don't believe he was in the original design documents we have either.
 

NeonZ

Member
What bothers me about the Gematsu leak is how inconsistent it was. Aside from the missing characters, if you look at the separate leaks separately, even though they all allegedly came from the same source, the 2nd leak specifically ends up very flimsy.

It got that Palutena and Shulk would be added, but then for Pokemon, there was only the placeholder "Pokemon XY", and we got Chrom and Chorus Kids listed there too. Now, you can excuse all that with it being based on a very early list - however, those later leaks also came alongside claims from the leaker that he knew what was going on during current development. He claimed that both Lucas and Ness were still being considered and debated over in 2014, which seems really unlikely. Even his claim of knowing that they'd have DLC also seems very questionable and just a lucky guess considering his lack of knowledge about the final line up.
 
Eh, besides Sonic in Brawl I'm usually under the impression every single character with a wholly original moveset in Smash normally makes it onto their respective design documents during the project plan stage. Has it been said anywhere Bowser Jr. was a late addition?

I think Sal's source after he fucked up with the Robin/Lucina reveal claimed they worked at Namco and not Nintendo as well? Could just be they were going off preliminary promotional material, something which would probably regularly be in flux in terms of when it's shown off.

EDIT: Greninja was added in Smash 4 before it even had a finalized design in Pokemon X/Y, let alone an actual name. I don't think the "Pokemon XY" comment is that flimsy if we're going off this leaker just going off really old information from before Greninja could really be called anything more than 'Pokemon XY Rep'. They also made out it was unlikely Lucas would be chosen over Ness and got the naming convention for Mii Fighters right in that 2nd email.
 
"Pokemon from X/Y" was the exact phrasing Sakurai used as Greninja's development name.

Eh, besides Sonic in Brawl I'm usually under the impression every single character with a wholly original moveset in Smash normally makes it onto their respective design documents during the project plan stage. Has it been said anywhere Bowser Jr. was a late addition?

I think Sal's source after he fucked up with the Robin/Lucina reveal claimed they worked at Namco and not Nintendo as well? Could just be they were going off preliminary promotional material, something which would probably regularly be in flux in terms of when it's shown off.

Bowser Jr was the last non-clone added and was almost cut
 

Forkball

Member
I will never be able to fully convey how totally amused and sad I was that evening. Remember that this came after that weird SDCC bit about Murasame Castle coming to the US for the first time ever. The Forkball "Get Hype" post + the timing of the actual PoTD + the quality of his render being suspect (remember when I thought it was someone messing with making a Takamaru model?) + the thread I made = amazing times.

Darkest timeline.
 

Dr. Buni

Member
Bowser Jr is probably my favorite newcomer, really glad he wasn't cut ^_^
Duck Hunt is the oddball here. We know he was planned right from the start as the surprise retro character.
Duck Hunt is not a fucking he, holy shit. Are people blind or they purposely ignore the fact Duck Hunt is a team of three characters?
 

It was during the roundtable after E3. I couldn't find the entire thing on Youtube, I don't think they ever uploaded the QA part of the event.

Duck Hunt is not a fucking he, holy shit. Are people blind or they purposely ignore the fact Duck Hunt is a team of three characters?

I refer to everyone as he unless they're clearly female, or Ivysaur. Using "them" is kind of weird for a single character, other than Ice Climbers. Not worth flipping out over...
 
That's would've been more like how Dedede and Bowser got cut from Smash 64 though; planned from the start, but lower priority and ultimately cut. There's nothing really indicating he wasn't on Smash 4's original design pitch.

Unless it's a Sonic style situation where they have to delay and/or cancel other shit to get a really popular request in, I don't see them suddenly coming up with an entirely new moveset for a character mid-development, with nothing in the design bible to go off. Ideas can happen organically during development, but for a fighting game and one as focused on its character appeal as Smash Bros., you're not going to wind up with a situation where a new character/moveset just sort of 'happens' after the conception-phase. Even in Diddy's case in Brawl it was a case of them taking away from their initial idea of him being paired up with Dixie, so it was probably way less of a blow time/resource-wise than if they'd decided midway through development to add Dixie to a previously lone Diddy Kong.
 
It was during the roundtable after E3. I couldn't find the entire thing on Youtube, I don't think they ever uploaded the QA part of the event.

He didn't show the design documents there, nor did he say that he referred to Greninja as "Pokemon from X/Y" during the design process. He said that he wanted a Pokemon from X/Y, yes, and it's likely that they had a placeholder name for it, but you are making shit up here. We don't know if he did use "Pokemon from X/Y" as exact phrasing during the design process or not.
 
He didn't show the design documents there, nor did he say that he referred to Greninja as "Pokemon from X/Y" during the design process. He said that he wanted a Pokemon from X/Y, yes, and it's likely that they had a placeholder name for it, but you are making shit up here. We don't know if he did use "Pokemon from X/Y" as exact phrasing during the design process or not.

Maybe I'm getting confused with something else I saw online, like the Mii Fighter name from the leak being correct.
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
Duck Hunt is the oddball here. We know he was planned right from the start as the surprise retro character.

Rosalina we know was planned after Chrom had already been cut, likely she might not have been concepted at the time he got his info.

Bowser Jr barely even made it into Smash 4. I don't believe he was in the original design documents we have either.

The problem with your statement is that we don't know for sure. We haven't seen everything from design document since it's only shown three characters which are Rosalina, Robin and Duck Hunt.

I would appreciate it if you just stop making up information to suit your argument. Rosalina is more likely to be first newcomer being added to Smash 4 according to database. I could see why they added Rosalina first since they would want to to testing out technical aspect to see if 3DS and Wii U could handle Rosalina and Luma without causing the frame rate issues, etc. I felt that there is no way that Rosalina would be planned to be included right after Chrom. Also there is a text under Rosalins saying that all characters were decided fom the beginning.

If you have a source that would say otherwise then please provide it because I'm definitely not aware of it.

My hutch is telling me that Bowser Jr was also planned ever since the beginning. The problem is that we don't have any access to full design document to prove our points so best as we could is depending on information we have. I have a feeling that he was planned to be included with 7 Koopalings to contrast 8 players mode which has been planned for long time.
 
The problem with your statement is that we don't know for sure. We haven't seen everything from design document since it's only shown three characters which are Rosalina, Robin and Duck Hunt.

I would appreciate it if you just stop making up information to suit your argument. Rosalina is more likely to be first newcomer being added to Smash 4 according to database. I could see why they added Rosalina first since they would want to to testing out technical aspect to see if 3DS and Wii U could handle Rosalina and Luma without causing the frame rate issues, etc. I felt that there is no way that Rosalina would be planned to be included right after Chrom. Also there is a text under Rosalins saying that all characters were decided fom the beginning.

If you have a source that would say otherwise then please provide it because I'm definitely not aware of it.

My hutch is telling me that Bowser Jr was also planned ever since the beginning. The problem is that we don't have any access to full design document to prove our points so best as we could is depending on information we have. I have a feeling that he was planned to be included with 7 Koopalings to contrast 8 players mode which has been planned for long time.

Well, we know there must have been some sort of design stage before the proposal documents we have because we know at some point Sakurai was going to go with Chrom, but decided he was too similar to Ike and Marth. There's a note on Robin's proposal talking about how some characters "slip through the cracks" which might be a reference to Chrom. But no direct mention of Chrom.

My guess is the leaker got bits and pieces of information over a period of time and put them together with some of his own interpretations, and we ended up with an odd mix of pre-proposal concepts, a lack of characters we know were planned right off the bat, and characters cut very late in development. Or we got the tail end of a rumor of a rumor, maybe office chatter was discussing Chrom, despite him never actually getting beyond Sakurai's mind.

It's just a weird bunch of scattered information from a bunch of different times that happens to mostly all be correct, or at least, with inconsistencies that are able to be explained. I think it was true, or at least, the source was a good source, but the information was dated or interpreted by someone, maybe even mistranslated. We know the leaker liked to make assumptions based on context clues (Shulk's trailer for example), so it doesn't seem unlikely he got a message about Chrom being planned and assumed that meant he was a sure bet. Makes me wonder if Chorus Boys were ever the actual rep, or if he just assumed they were based on them being a logical RH rep.

I do agree 8 player was planned early. It's too ingrained into the game to not be. Which is why I don't believe ICs were cut because of 8-player at all, especially since we have a clear reason given why they were cut that didn't involve 8 player, although, technically, the statement was made before 8 player was officially announced.
 

Frofro

Banned
I really hope to see this character become playable character somehow!?

MkpPXwg.jpg


Well, I have to face it that he probably wouldn't become playable character.

Edited: I'm going to wear Isaac avatar until Smash Ballot is over then I will be back with my Duck Hunt avatar again.
My gut tells me the ballot will give us:

K Rool
Isaac
Rayman

Three insanely popular characters, both in the West and Japan
 
Duck Hunt is not a fucking he, holy shit. Are people blind or they purposely ignore the fact Duck Hunt is a team of three characters?

It's weird how kinda inconsistent they are with that. One of the Palutena's Guidances and the end of Duck Hunt's trailer basically mention or show that the character consists of the dog, a duck and the person with the Zapper, and yet their trophies only acknowledge the former two, and of course in Europe they're called "Duck Hunt Duo".
 

Frofro

Banned
My guess is that Tamaki's source is someone from Amazon, as Amazon is starting to sell digital Wii U and 3DS games through their website, and that could potentially mean DLC as well.
Amazon is part of Tamakis source. This is his big source appearantly which is why the mods at Smashboards are only "70%" trusting. Not sure about Tamakis other "smaller" sources he's talking about, but they appear to contain similar information.

It is entirely possible that the retailer just made a false assumption. My biggest problem with this source....what is the practical reason to tell amazon the contents of the DLC early? Sure the ESRB saw the game early, but revealing content is key in order to rate the vanilla game. Online content isn't rated under the ESRB and even has a disclaimer in game stating such, meaning there's no reason the content would need to be "approved" before release.

With how many times characters have been leaked for Smash 4, you'd think Nintendo would just do all they can to keep the character top secret. Even under NDA, telling a retailer months early doesn't seem rational.

Still in the boat SK is probably coming but each day I doubt it more and more.
 
Amazon selling DLC keys, as they are now, would explain the hole in his source, which was "how the heck does a retailer know specifics about DLC" and it would explain why the rumor was disconnected from Amiibo.

We probably won't have to wait long if the rumor is true. Although I think we're past the point where Sunday will be anything, which is a shame.
 

kirby_fox

Banned
It really feels like they would've had an announcement by now, but decided to take a break from Directs and thus are waiting to release things.
 

Zubz

Banned
It really feels like they would've had an announcement by now, but decided to take a break from Directs and thus are waiting to release things.

Yeah. I've been sold on that since the August update for Smash was entirely revealed in small chunks via Twitter. But seeing how we haven't seen anything else for Smash despite there clearly being something Smash-related planned for PAX, Pokemon GO was announced unexpectedly in an unadvertised press conference, Pikmin 4 was revealed off-handedly in an interview, Shovel Knight's Amiibo was revealed at PAX (*Gasp* Nintendo showed something at an event?!), Mario Maker actually having to be advertised the old fashioned way, and the Splatoon update also being Twitter revealed/TV commercial-advertised, that's a good bit of info.

I'd say that's at least a Direct's worth of information, even if we don't know what the Smash stuff meant for PAX was, nor anything about Pikmin 3 other than the fact that it exists.
 
Miyamoto's silly little random Mario facts video from today probably would have been a segment of a Direct, as well. The Mii video from the last update was also obviously taken right from a Direct.

I think the August update was going to be bigger. It felt kind of thrown together and they're still adding new tournament types every few weeks, this week came with "Everything Goes 1v1" which is customs, miis, all stages, all items, timed. Sounds like a load of fun /s

A Direct probably would have shown us the content coming out in the future, as past ones had. Without a Direct, we're blind.

They could just make a video called "Director's Corner" or something and have Sakurai announce stuff, Direct style, without actually being called a Direct.
 

kirby_fox

Banned
Yeah. I've been sold on that since the August update for Smash was entirely revealed in small chunks via Twitter. But seeing how we haven't seen anything else for Smash despite there clearly being something Smash-related planned for PAX, Pokemon GO was announced unexpectedly in an unadvertised press conference, Pikmin 4 was revealed off-handedly in an interview, Shovel Knight's Amiibo was revealed at PAX (*Gasp* Nintendo showed something at an event?!), Mario Maker actually having to be advertised the old fashioned way, and the Splatoon update also being Twitter revealed/TV commercial-advertised, that's a good bit of info.

I'd say that's at least a Direct's worth of information, even if we don't know what the Smash stuff meant for PAX was, nor anything about Pikmin 3 other than the fact that it exists.

There's probably more than that too. They've been showing games off in public, had amiibo dates announced, and we don't know anything coming past December (and not even really dates for what we assume is December).

I wonder if they're planning on something beginning of next month after the ballot ends. Would make sense I guess.
 

EulaCapra

Member
Source Gaming has FIVE ballot-related polls up. Almost every first and third-party character for the choosing on a scale of 1 to 5.

As of now, results show these Nintendo characters trending higher (not enough votes on third-party polls as of now):
Chorus Kids
Andy
Chibi-Robo
Isaac
Ray MK
Inkling
Wonder-Red
Captain Toad
Paper Mario
Cranky Kong
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool
Classic Ganon
Impa
Tetra
Krystal
Bandana Dee
Midna
Ridley
Waluigi
Dillon
Takamaru
Ice Climbers
Ivysaur
Squirtle
Wolf

My notes:
Bandana fucking Dee!? Are you for real? It's one of the few characters besides King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, Isaac, Inklings, Chibi-Robo, Wolf, and Ice Climbers who have more 5-votes than anything. Cranky Kong on the list due to the number of indifferent 3's he got. And I chuckled by the indifference to Kid Icarus votes and the complete apathy of voting in more Fire Emblem characters.

Fuck all those who voted 1's and 2's for my girls, Captain Syrup and Alexandra Roivas! You're gonna regret Super Smash Sausage Fest in the future!
 
Bandanna Dee might have support now because Return to Dreamland was re-released and is easier and cheaper to play now, along with people thinking he has a good chance because he's popular in Japan, so why not hop on a potentially winning train.

But I'm hesitant to think people voted for him back when the ballot was new and popular.

He'd be a fun character though, and it would be nice to have all four RtDL characters. As far as ballot DLC goes, he's fairly inoffensive. I don't think anyone would really be all that mad if he made it in. His body means he can be based off of Kirby as well. Not as a clone I mean, but just having his animation skeleton based on Kirby, and some minor animations borrowed from Kirby like hit stun and edge animations that nobody notices are borrowed by characters with similar bodies.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
But at least they put Haruka Amami for Namco so it means they are finally listening to their sempai.

But no Katamari Prince? ;___; Boo hoo hoo Sourcegaming.

But you remembered Twinbee so I forgive you.
 
I find it very interesting that there is very very few characters in that poll where the votes of 2+ outweigh the 1s. Most of those characters have at least 40% 1s.
 
It would be funny if Waddle Dee got in and people cried "Sakurai bias!!"

Because B. Waddle Dee was a minor background character in a game Sakurai made, but his most prominent roles were in games long after Sakurai left HAL. B. Waddle Dee would be like the anti-Sakurai bias, it would show he's willing to include characters in series that he once created, but now have no part of.

I do think people are sleeping on Waddle Dee's chances. Given he can be based on Kirby's body, is a popular character, is a character worthy of Smash, and a more recent Kirby character, he seems at least somewhat likely. Being a unique spear user would also make him worthwhile.
 

Zubz

Banned
But at least they put Haruka Amami for Namco so it means they are finally listening to their sempai.

But no Katamari Prince? ;___; Boo hoo hoo Sourcegaming.

But you remembered Twinbee so I forgive you.

As far as Nintendo games go, the Prince of all Cosmos has only been in the Pac-Man kart racer and the Pac-Attack reskin that never left Japan. I love the li'l guy, and it'd be nice to see my other 2 Top 3 games have characters in the 3rd, but it's not happening. There were rumblings about getting the King in PSASBR, but they shut that game down despite Dart and Abe being mostly finished! The King didn't stand a chance.
 
I'd be pretty pissed if a fourth Kirby character got in before K. Rool or Dixie, especially when the character in question is literally just a generic Waddle Dee who wields a spear.

That being said, he is a popular request in Japan for some reason and I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up at some point, but I don't think Sakurai wants Waddle Dee to be playable.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
As far as Nintendo games go, the Prince of all Cosmos has only been in the Pac-Man kart racer and the Pac-Attack reskin that never left Japan. I love the li'l guy, and it'd be nice to see my other 2 Top 3 games have characters in the 3rd, but it's not happening. There were rumblings about getting the King in PSASBR, but they shut that game down despite Dart and Abe being mostly finished! The King didn't stand a chance.

Dante is mentioned and he hardly has an appearance on Nintendo systems.



Also I still see Bandana Waddle Dee as a variant of Waddle Dees and if they're going to have a generic minion in Smash Goomba should be the first one to be included.

Or Space Invader.
 
Bandanna Waddle Dee isn't really all that different from having Yoshi as a character or wanting Captain Toad. Just specific members of a larger, generic, species.

Why wouldn't Sakurai want Bandanna Dee? He can't stand a Kirby character he didn't make famous?

He's popular. He'd have a unique moveset. He'd be easier to make since he already has a moveset similar to Smash to pull from, and he can be based on Kirby's skeleton, so he'd be easier to make then other characters.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Can't really compare to Yoshi seeing as Yoshi has been the main hero in a good handful of games. Just has the unfortunate name of Yoshi the yoshi. Toad on the other hand is currently just a move of Princess Peach's, so do I dare mention King DeDeDe and his Waddledee assistants to kind of (they've been relegated from move to entry and victory animation) compare like with like?

Or should I be saying make Goombella playable?
 
Bandanna Waddle Dee isn't really all that different from having Yoshi as a character or wanting Captain Toad. Just specific members of a larger, generic, species.
Yoshi is an iconic character who has started in many commercially successful titles. "Bandana Dee" (which isn't even an official name) is a character who started appearing in games a few years ago and now people want him because they want to fill some "fourth Kirby rep" quota.

Why wouldn't Sakurai want Bandanna Dee? He can't stand a Kirby character he didn't make famous?
He doesn't even have a trophy, so probably. Look at how much content there is from Return to Dream Land and Epic Yarn.

He's popular. He'd have a unique moveset. He'd be easier to make since he already has a moveset similar to Smash to pull from, and he can be based on Kirby's skeleton, so he'd be easier to make then other characters.
You could use the same argument for literally any character who isn't playable yet. Like Dixie Kong, for example. Even K. Rool could use Bowser's frame if they were really desperate.
 
Can't really compare to Yoshi seeing as Yoshi has been the main hero in a good handful of games. Just has the unfortunate name of Yoshi the yoshi. Toad on the other hand is currently just a move of Princess Peach's, so do I dare mention King DeDeDe and his Waddledee assistants to kind of (they've been relegated from move to entry and victory animation) compare like with like?

Or should I be saying make Goombella playable?

No, unless Peach used Captain Toad or Dedede had Bandanna Waddle Dee in his entrance animation.

They're specific characters from a larger species and just happened to be named after their species. Not as important as Yoshi, but both are certainly important enough for Smash and neither have any reason they couldn't be in Smash.

Yoshi is an iconic character who has started in many commercially successful titles. "Bandana Dee" (which isn't even an official name) is a character who started appearing in games a few years ago and now people want him because they want to fill some "fourth Kirby rep" quota.


He doesn't even have a trophy, so probably. Look at how much content there is from Return to Dream Land and Epic Yarn.


You could use the same argument for literally any character who isn't playable yet. Like Dixie Kong, for example. Even K. Rool could use Bowser's frame if they were really desperate.

Bandanna Waddle Dee is his official name as of Triple Deluxe. People want him because he's cute, and a different Kirby character. No multiple jumps and uses a spear. I haven't really seen him mentioned specifically because Kirby "deserves" four reps.

Diddy didn't have a trophy in Melee, so that's meaningless. Also the majority of Kirby's trophies are from Return to Dreamland, along with a few pieces of music, and Kirby's Final Smash.

You could. But K Rool is a Mii hat and Dixie is about on the same level as Bandanna Dee in Japan.
 
I feel like the lack of Epic Yarn content has probably something to do with the fact that there's already a stage based on Yoshi's Woolly World.
 
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