Support NeoGAF

[balladofwindfishes]

Yeah, that was a great day. I remember when they unlocked Ness and we saw Magicant for the first time and everyone loved it. The we saw the Flying men and everyone lost their shit lol

Or the crushing realization that Dark Pit was 100% a full on clone. I remember people speculating that he maybe had something unique about him, like Pit's old up special.

Nope, cloniest clone Smash Bros has ever seen.

Or the unforgettable message when ROB was unlocked, revealing that he was, in fact, the last character and the ESRB leak was the entire roster.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

 

[Starphoenix]

[The thing that bugs me with Waddle Dee, in my opinion, people only want him so they can "complete" other characters. Waddle Dee was the P4 option in RtDL and suddenly people want him to fill this role.

Your assertion is hardly the case. Yes, there are fans of the Kirby series that want WD playable as a way to bring more content from the series, but a majority of people on Smashboards I've run across (and even myself) support the character from a aesthetic/moveset vantage point. Potentially having a spear-based fighter is an interesting dynamic that would separate him from the rest of the cast; and most of his animations from RtDL could carry over into Super Smash Bros. Claiming people "only" want him "series rep" is a tad disingenuous.

 

[BGBW]

I remember seeing Master Core live, for the first time ever. That was quite the event, witnessing this entirely unknown and funky looking boss. It hadn't even ever been teased by Sakurai, probably one of the last big surprises we'd have until DLC started rolling out.

Wasn't there a mention that there was an additional boss on harder difficulties when he discussed Classic mode in a PotD? I remember making a remark about never seeing it since I was originally planning on just skimming through classic stress free (ergo on easy mode) just to unlock stuff.

 

[Kjellson]

King K. Rool will never be more than a trophy.

 

[MrSaturn99]

(am I allowed to post these images with these watermarks?)

I just think the sprites were so acidic, and 3D gradients and stuff they were going for were too much.I'm no pro behind game design or whatever, but it's like nothing stands out, I prefer the paler colours and smaller sprites in the GBA/DS games that followed with the less intrusive interface, since that took up a lot of space in Super Star too.

But the 3D stuff is what makes it stand outtttttt

Funny you the DS games since like Nightmare in Dream Land before it, Super Star Ultra was really hit or miss with the backgrounds (the poor mine cart sections!). They look great otherwise but that bugged me.

The dude who got the early copy was also garbage at the game. It took him, like, four tries to unlock Doctor Mario.

Or how he just jumped off the stage when he fought Duck Hunt lmao.

Yeah, that was a great day. I remember when they unlocked Ness and we saw Magicant for the first time and everyone loved it. The we saw the Flying men and everyone lost their shit lol

I still love it.

Finding out Smiles and Tears was in made me shed some tears.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Nope, cloniest clone Smash Bros has ever seen.

I'm not arguing against that but what about Falco in Melee if you are talking about Smash Bros franchise itself?

 

[BGBW]

The worst clones in Smash history are Mewtwo and Snake.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Hey

Hey bgbw


Shiburin > Haruka http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1110611&page=100000#footer

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I'm not arguing against that but what about Falco in Melee if you are talking about Smash Bros franchise itself?

Unique laser firing animation and idle animation.

Still less cloney. Dark Pit only has a unique Final Smash, no other animations are unique, not even his entrance animation, which every single other clone in the game has a unique animation for.

Also all but one of his standard attacks are 1:1 identical to Pit, and 1/2 of his specials are identical. All four of Falco's specials were different and he had unique attributes on his normal moves, including being unique as the highest jumper in the series (even now he still is).

 

[Green Mamba]

Dr. Mario is the closest to his origin character in Melee and even he absolutely embarrasses Dark Pit.

 

[BGBW]

Hey

Hey bgbw


Shiburin > Haruka http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1110611&page=100000#footer

Regu please. Not even the best girl in Cindy Gals.

 

[Brqan]

King K. Rool will never be more than a trophy and a mii costume.

FIXED

 

[Regulus Tera]

Regu please. Not even the best girl in Cindy Gals.

Haruka is bottom tier in original im@s too

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

King K. Rool will never be more than a trophy.

You are wrong because he is now a costume

And you sound vitriolic and unfunny anyway

 

[BGBW]

Haruka is bottom tier in original im@s too

Did we even watch the same show? If it wasn't for Haruka the world would have been destroyed by Aulyn.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Did we even watch the same show? If it wasn't for Haruka the world would have been destroyed by Aulyn.

We all know Producer-san is the best candidate for Smash anyway.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Dr. Mario is the closest to his origin character in Melee and even he absolutely embarrasses Dark Pit.

It's the little touches the Melee clones had. Their moves were uniquely balanced with different attributes and each of them had a unique idle animation. Which is a minor thing, but it helped make them feel more unique. Dark Pit doesn't even get a unique model, he's just a texture swap of Pit, with angry eyes and one minor detail missing on his gloves.

Not that I'd want DP to be cut or return to an alt, but I wouldn't mind patching in more unique aspects to Dark Pit, even if they're just number changes.

 

[GustyGardner]

I still love it.

Finding out Smiles and Tears was in made me shed some tears.

Yep, my favourite ever Smash stage still. Eight Medlies + Smiles & Tears have to be right up there with best Smash arrangements too.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I have to wonder if Smiles and Tears was just the cut Brawl remix that they finished and re-purposed for Magicant, rather than NPC.

 

[SenorArdilla]

And Rainbow Curse reverted back to just Waddle Dee.

Holy shit. Waddle Dee has a mouth.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Holy shit. Waddle Dee has a mouth.

I knew something didn't quite look right.

 

[kirby_fox]

It's the little touches the Melee clones had. Their moves were uniquely balanced with different attributes and each of them had a unique idle animation. Which is a minor thing, but it helped make them feel more unique. Dark Pit doesn't even get a unique model, he's just a texture swap of Pit, with angry eyes and one minor detail missing on his gloves.

Not that I'd want DP to be cut or return to an alt, but I wouldn't mind patching in more unique aspects to Dark Pit, even if they're just number changes.

I've thought Dark Pit would be more interesting if he had more power + less speed. A heavyweight Pit with slight changes to his arsenal too would be intriguing enough for a clone.

Change his arrows to deal more damage + knockback, his up special to have a different range, his side special should reach less with more damage, and his down special could reflect things at a different angle like Wolf does.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Yep, my favourite ever Smash stage still. Eight Medlies + Smiles & Tears have to be right up there with best Smash arrangements too.

Totally!

Holy shit. Waddle Dee has a mouth.

Holy shit, how did I not see that?

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

Just kick Dark Pit, just cuz he got into a smash game doesn't mean he's a good choice

Overall people are too sensitive to cuts and change in general in my opinion. I would love to see everyone get completely new moves for a change

 

[balladofwindfishes]

It's interesting the little quirks the Melee clones had that lived on even long after they were needed to feel different.

Like Young Link's sword made slapping sounds for whatever reason. Toon Link's sword still does (along with TL having YL's old idle animation).

In Melee, Doc's up special didn't make any sounds for the coins, and now that's been incorporated into his up special so it doesn't even make coins at all. I think this might have been a bug in Melee, but they kept it. Also his down special, he doesn't go "WAYOO" like Mario used to, still remains in Smash 4. I honestly thought that was a Smash 4 bug, but nope, consistent with Melee.

Roy's sword made slapping sounds at the tip, and it still does. A nice thing to make his mechanic have some feedback. Oddly, I don't think close range Marth hits have a different sound.

All of these were done to make the clones different in subtle ways, even if you might see them as "lazy" since they just removed sounds or re-used existing sounds, but it adds a bit of interesting flavor to the game.

And then you have Dark Pit

Just kick Dark Pit, just cuz he got into a smash game doesn't mean he's a good choice

Overall people are too sensitive to cuts and change in general in my opinion. I would love to see everyone get completely new moves for a change

He's in Smash now, so no matter what happens, people are always going to want him back.

 

[kirby_fox]

He's in Smash now, so no matter what happens, people are always going to want him back.

Still waiting for a game with no cuts. Smash 4 would have been nice to have that happen and probably the best for it to happen with. In theory it could still happen if they for some reason use it as a base for Smash 5 and can port ALL the assets over to the NX.

Imagine starting your project with the base being Smash 4 and being able to use everything in it, only having to upgrade certain things and get the character rights again. Then they could flesh-out Dark Pit and Lucina, upgrade Alph to a spot on the roster (assuming he's in Pikmin 4), bring back the Ice Climbers (since they were working on the Wii U anyways), rework Ivysaur and Squirtle, remake Pichu again. Add even more newcomers to the roster that fans wanted.

Once DLC is over...I fear a lot of us are going to go through withdrawal on speculating.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

People still want Pichu back sooooooo

inb4 HE = SHOO IN CUZ HE's EASY TO MAKE

 

[balladofwindfishes]

People still want Pichu back sooooooo

inb4 HE = SHOO IN CUZ HE's EASY TO MAKE

Why are you always so hostile to people who might want characters besides random Donkey Kong characters?

 

[Triforce141]

As long as Dark Pit and Lucina are decloned in ways like the Melee ones, I'll be fine with it.

There are over 100 weapons in Kid Icarus Uprising, Dark Pit's animations/non-special moves can be reminiscent of Brawl Pit while having something more unique weapons with his specials. Like the Bowl Arm having a AOE where broken pieces of the bowl fly around on impact, the Drill Arm (even if it's an item in Smash already) being a non explosive version of Villager's Lloyd Rocket, or Phosphora bow being a rapid fire projectile in vein of Fox and Falco's blasters to name an example.

And Lucina can be semi-cloned from Marth by redoing most of her animations to resemble her moves and attacks from Awakening/Fates/S.T.E.A.M., that alone would semi-clone her by a significant margin. Also even though she can't learn counter in Awakening, just rename her down-b to vantage to keep in continuity with the games while keeping the same move, it's basically her attacking first or doing some damage when the enemy strikes or does their move first like in FE.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Funny enough, the Drill in Smash is considered a unique item from the Smash universe and entirely unrelated to Kid Icarus, despite visually being identical to the Drill Arm.

I don't know why. It's clearly the Drill Arm, he isn't fooling anyone.

 

[Green Mamba]

People still want Pichu back sooooooo

inb4 HE = SHOO IN CUZ HE's EASY TO MAKE

You know, "all caps dumb voice" doesn't make counterpoints go away and it definitely doesn't make you or your stance look good.

I mean, I want Donkey Kong characters too but it's this kind of stuff that makes it hard to tell other people that I have any association with you and what you stand for.

Please, it's for the betterment of all Donkey Kong kind.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

Yeah sorry I don't mean to be mean and I like lots of characters not just DK ones, it is a habit to poke fun at silly things people say that every one else ignores, or they kind of just passively accept

Like it seems to be in grained that Pichu has a good chance, just because a few people repeat it loudly and often enough, which is textbook psych if you read about it...repetition builds familiarity! But I'll be a bit nicer if I can

 

[Slime Scholar]

And Lucina can be semi-cloned from Marth by redoing most of her animations to resemble her moves and attacks from Awakening/Fates/S.T.E.A.M., that alone would semi-clone her by a significant margin. Also even though she can't learn counter in Awakening, just rename her down-b to vantage to keep in continuity with the games while keeping the same move, it's basically her attacking first or doing some damage when the enemy strikes or does their move first like in FE.

Back when people were speculating about the roster, I always imagined Lucina or Chrom playing a lot like how they animate in Awakening. In that game, the characters always sprint in before making a swing, or perform long, lateral leaps when attacking. I was disappointed when Lucina ended up being so heavily cloned so if they ever decloned her in the future, I'd like to see them try something along those lines.

Also I thought the counter moves the FE characters had were based on the counterattack mechanic, not the counter skill.

 

[PK Gaming]

Back when people were speculating about the roster, I always imagined Lucina or Chrom playing a lot like how they animate in Awakening. In that game, the characters always sprint in before making a swing, or perform long, lateral leaps when attacking. I was disappointed when Lucina ended up being so heavily cloned so if they ever decloned her in the future, I'd like to see them try something along those lines.

Also I thought the counter moves the FE characters had were based on the counterattack mechanic, not the counter skill.

I always got a chuckle out of Sakurai making an off-hand comment about the reasoning behind Lucina's cloned moveset. He says something along the lines of "Must be genetics" even though in FE:A, she was trained by Chrom and has his moves...

 

[jph139]

Dark Pit's specials are the most egregious. SO many Uprising weapons to choose from - it's among the game's biggest mechanics - but no, one mostly cosmetic swap and the rest straight-up cloned. At least give him different Orbitars!

 

[Regulus Tera]

The simplest solution would be to give Lucina and Edgy Pit the custom specials from Pit and Marth as their default.

Sakurai should fucking hire me.

 

[Triforce141]

Dark Pit's specials are the most egregious. SO many Uprising weapons to choose from - it's among the game's biggest mechanics - but no, one mostly cosmetic swap and the rest straight-up cloned. At least give him different Orbitars!

Maybe it's because of development time, but I find it strange that even if most of Mega Man's customs were similar in their core, like down-b summons a shield or neutral/side-b shoots a projectile. They were still unique in their own way since they were the power ups from the Mega Man games.

Pit and Dark Pit got nothing unique with their customs, they were the simple, bow is stronger and no aim, arm is a counter now, orbitars don't reflect, but do damage, yes it's similar to the custom moves most fighters have. But they were the same weapons for all the customs, would it be really that hard to reuse/build on of some of the weapons from Uprising?

 

[TheDinoman]

I'd be fine with Dark Pit if he was a clone in the style of Falco in Melee.

The beauty of Melee's clones is that, in-spite of borrowing animations from other characters, in terms of playstyle they were fully unique. Ask any pro Melee player out there. One can't play Fox in the same way they could play as Falco. There's enough statistical differences between them to the point where they feel like their own characters.

Wolf and Lucas in Brawl were an evolution of that concept. Obviously, Fox and Ness were used as the bases for those characters, in the same way Fox was used for Falco in Melee, it's just now they happened to have their own attack animations to make them feel even more unique. Dark Pit and Lucina aren't like that. They're just Pit and Marth very so slightly modified. But I suppose the lack of a tipper in Lucina's case makes a big difference, even if she's just Marth otherwise.

 

[NeonZ]

I always got a chuckle out of Sakurai making an off-hand comment about the reasoning behind Lucina's cloned moveset. He says something along the lines of "Must be genetics" even though in FE:A, she was trained by Chrom and has his moves...

Awakening is fairly inconsistent about that, actually. The story and that one CG animation claim that Lucina has Chrom's style, but her actual in-battle animations were different from Chrom's (and were mostly homages to Marth's animations, both Smash ones and also ones from older FE games).

One of Lucina's unique animations in Smash (her counter) actually isn't used in-game by her, only in official artwork.

Compare them...

Lucina's counter in Smash

Marth's counter in Smash

Lucina's stance in Awakening

Note how she holds the sword with only one hand like Marth, rather than two like she does in Smash.

 

[EulaCapra]

I rather have Dark Pit hide under the character select screen as Pit's alternate costumes 9 through 16 altogether.

 

[Neoxon]

I rather have Dark Pit hide under the character select screen as Pit's alternate costumes 9 through 16 altogether.

Too late. Given Sakurai's stance against demoting characters to alternate costumes, Dark Pit is either going to return or be left out altogether.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I found it funny that people are still shitting on Dark Pit since it has been almost a year yet people haven't got over with it. I understand that people are quite disappointed with the fact that he's a direct clone of Pit.

Still waiting for a game with no cuts. Smash 4 would have been nice to have that happen and probably the best for it to happen with. In theory it could still happen if they for some reason use it as a base for Smash 5 and can port ALL the assets over to the NX.

Imagine starting your project with the base being Smash 4 and being able to use everything in it, only having to upgrade certain things and get the character rights again. Then they could flesh-out Dark Pit and Lucina, upgrade Alph to a spot on the roster (assuming he's in Pikmin 4), bring back the Ice Climbers (since they were working on the Wii U anyways), rework Ivysaur and Squirtle, remake Pichu again. Add even more newcomers to the roster that fans wanted.

Once DLC is over...I fear a lot of us are going to go through withdrawal on speculating.

I'm going to be very happy to have a break from Smash Speculation but I couldn't promise that I would definitely stay on break that long.

Dark Pit's specials are the most egregious. SO many Uprising weapons to choose from - it's among the game's biggest mechanics - but no, one mostly cosmetic swap and the rest straight-up cloned. At least give him different Orbitars!

I definitely agree with you there. There are many choices that they could make to differing Dark Pit from Pit but I understand the fact that they don't really have enough time to make it happen.

 

[powerdrain]

I rather have Dark Pit hide under the character select screen as Pit's alternate costumes 9 through 16 altogether.

Would've much preferred Medusa as a Palutena clone with different snake-themed particle effects, like a giant snake being summoned out of the ground for her up-smash. Dark Pit will forever be lame.

 

[Triforce141]

Would've much preferred Medusa as a Palutena clone with different snake-themed particle effects, like a giant snake being summoned out of the ground for her up-smash. Dark Pit will forever be lame.

But Medusa's

Spoiler

dead

after the events of Uprising, then again, that never stopped Pit using the 3 Sacred Treasures for his final smash,

Spoiler

even if Hades destroyed them by a literal burp.

Maybe they can just retcon her and say that she was summoned from the underworld for no reason, it's never stopped Sakurai from being that faithful to his games.
(Pit and Dark Pit's arrows having their abilities swapped for Sm4sh.)

Edit: If there's any character that gets in as an alt. for Palutena, it'll be pseudo-Palutena, only differences aside from visuals would be some weird monster filter over her voice.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Would've much preferred Medusa as a Palutena clone with different snake-themed particle effects, like a giant snake being summoned out of the ground for her up-smash. Dark Pit will forever be lame.

Would have had to animate each of the snakes on Medusa's hair though. Dark Pit is literally a texture swap.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm kinda upset about how Uprising treats the grandmother of female Nintendo villains. :|

 

[Golnei]

Would have had to animate each of the snakes on Medusa's hair though. Dark Pit is literally a texture swap.

A texture/voice swap which was probably already done as an alt. As much as I would have preferred any other character if they were going for clones from the start, everything about Dark Pit suggests it was him or nothing.

...Has Sakurai actually said anything in the last year about why Alph wasn't considered for a promotion as well?

I'm kinda upset about how Uprising treats the grandmother of female Nintendo villains. :|

It's probably just a structure he's fond of using; if Master Hand's role in The Subspace Emissary is any indication (though that may have been Nojima's idea), as well as King Dedede in every Kirby game he's a boss in barring the first. Though it was unfortunate that it led to Medusa not getting enough screentime - hopefully she'll have some part in any future games, regardless of when they take place in relation.

 

[PK Gaming]

Awakening is fairly inconsistent about that, actually. The story and that one CG animation claim that Lucina has Chrom's style, but her actual in-battle animations were different from Chrom's (and were mostly homages to Marth's animations, both Smash ones and also ones from older FE games).

One of Lucina's unique animations in Smash (her counter) actually isn't used in-game by her, only in official artwork.

Compare them...


Note how she holds the sword with only one hand like Marth, rather than two like she does in Smash.

Yeah I remember that, though I figured that's a case of story and gameplay segregation. Can't exactly have her copy Chrom's motions because that would be boring, and Marth copying hers was out of convenience. He and Lucina have different fighting animations in Fates iirc.

But Medusa's

Spoiler

dead

after the events of Uprising, then again, that never stopped Pit using the 3 Sacred Treasures for his final smash,

Spoiler

even if Hades destroyed them by a literal burp.

Maybe they can just retcon her and say that she was summoned from the underworld for no reason, it's never stopped Sakurai from being that faithful to his games.
(Pit and Dark Pit's arrows having their abilities swapped for Sm4sh.)

Edit: If there's any character that gets in as an alt. for Palutena, it'll be pseudo-Palutena, only differences aside from visuals would be some weird monster filter over her voice.

You're overthinking it. He doesn't need to come up with some convoluted ploy to make her playable. I'm sure the hypothetical guidance for her would be incredibly tongue in cheek.

 

[IntelliHeath]

...Has Sakurai actually said anything in the last year about why Alph wasn't considered for a promotion as well?

Yes, he did. Apparently they ran out of time to work on Alph to become clone character since Pikmin and Alph might require more time to being worked on and being tested.

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/07/29/plucky-little-guys-olimar-and-alph-in-smash-4/

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/08/01/smash-clones/

What about Alph, then? Many fans have wondered this question after the full roster’s official confirmation. It turns out that Alph too was also meant to make the jump from alternate costume to a clone character. Rock Pikmin, a type of Pikmin introduced in Pikmin 3, in which Alph also debuted in, were meant to be part of the moveset. Whether Rock Pikmin were meant to be a distinguishing element between Olimar and Alph or not is unknown. Regardless, due to time constraints, the ideas were dropped and Alph remained a costume swap for Olimar and Rock Pikmin were not added as part of the moveset either.

It’s likely that, since Olimar was already a difficult character to implement due to his more complex moveset and 3DS limitations, it wasn’t as viable to make a clone character out of him, unlike Mario, Marth and Pit, who have more straightforward movesets.