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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot

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PK Gaming

Member
The 3DS version is on track to becoming the best selling Smash game ever. Ice Climbers were worth the sacrifice.

Sales aside, I actually have the time to play the 3DS version of Smash, which makes it infinitely more preferable.

I barely have the time to sit down and play the Wii U version nowadays, and the people I usually play with barely have the time to sit down and play the Wii U Version with me as well.

The Ice Climbers sacrifice were not in vain.

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I have nothing but respect for them and the people who miss them.
 

NeonZ

Member
It's funny the influence that some last minute decisions in Smash can have in other games. If Lucina had remained a costume, she wouldn't be in Codename STEAM, Fire Emblem Fates or Mario Maker.

Oh I wasn't being facetious! I was trying to imply that you totally dismantled my post and used a gif to represent that, haha.

Ah, ok, sorry. I wasn't sure what you meant there.
 
Yea, Lucina and Dark Pit were very lucky.

Reading that Sourcegaming Olimar doc, it seems like Alph might have been planned as a semi-clone, rather than a real clone, as he's mentioned in the doc as being a planned clone before being downgraded to alt. The other clones were the opposite, planned a alts and then turned into fighters. Alph might have been a Lucas style planned clone for this game...

He got super screwed. Now the other clones are running around in tons of games as costumes and cameos and Alph is stuck being responsible for removing half of Olimar's colors.
 
One year since Smash 4
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One year ago, today Smash 4 launched in Japan. After a year and a half of daily hype images of Luigi touching his nose, Smash 4 3DS was finally out!

This was a pretty huge launch for the 3DS. Smash Bros hadn't ever been on a handheld before, and here was Smash 3DS, looking and feeling like a proper Smash Bros. They were able to push the 3DS to the absolute limits and have smooth, 60fps action with higher than average detailed models all while maintaining Smash's signature complex physics and fighting style.

Launching with a roster of 51 characters, Smash 4 was the largest roster Smash had ever seen. From all stars like Mega Man, Pac Man and Dark Pit to lesser known characters like Shulk, and even surprise appearances by Duck Hunt and Animal Crossing's Villager. The latter had been specifically said to not appear in Smash because Animal Crossing was a non-violent game, so it was a surprise to see him/her appear. Unfortunately, the release roster wasn't all that much of a surprise, as it had leaked months prior. BUT OH WELL, we'll pretend like we didn't know.

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Smash 4 3DS' release wouldn't be the end however. There was still the International version and the Wii U version. And many, many patches adding new characters, new stages, new modes and new costumes, along with major balance changes. Smash 4 is the first Smash game to make use of patches for balance, and in fact, one of the first Nintendo games to receive major balance updates. We saw the entire system for DI gutted and changed, probably the largest change the game had. Wario Lost the ability to fly wherever he pleases, Charizard's Seismic Toss went from a bland fairly useless throw to (rightfully) the best Kill Throw in the game and Lucina got some changes to declone her slightly, at least with damage numbers. And plenty of other changes.

And like other Nintendo games like Splatoon and Mario Kart, Smash has continued to receive new, free features and modes through patches!

New free content includes
- One entire new stage (for the Wii U). Miiverse, sometimes affectionately called Memeverse, is a slight variation on Battlefield that also features posts from Nintendo's famous message board, Miiverse. So now you can be told you suck and see lewd drawings of the female fighters while you battle! It also has a ton of music, featuring remixes from games like Nintendo Land and Mario Paint, which are kind of oddball games to remix, but they're appreciated. Dat Wii Shop channel remix.

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- One new free Mii Costume. Every player gets the K. K. Slider costume for free just by booting the game! Previously exclusive to 7-11 in Japan, you know what they say, "the first hit is free."

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- Lots more 8-Player maps (Wii U)! The game had a fairly small 8-player map rotation early on, but over time lots more maps have been made 8 player compatible. Interestingly, these maps also remove hazards, so they would be nice to have for regular matches, but this isn't Play Station All Stars! RIP balanced Pokemon Stadium 2.

Lots more features as well
- The ability to upload and share your Anime Inspired Miis online with others, along with questionable screenshots of Zero Suit Samus, custom stages with no blastzones (Wii U only) and replays of that amazing time you killed a Little Mac online by doing nothing.

- Day 1 saw the addition of Conquests, which earn you coins for using specific characters online in "themed" battles. Kind of a minor feature, but nice overall.

- All Star gets less bad and random (on the Wii U) with the change to how stages are picked. Now 8-Player variants are used when one exists, which means the majority of stages are hazard free in All Star now. And then you get a run into Garden of Hope and Wiley's Castle in the same run while trying for the Beat All Star in 6 minutes with Jigglypuff and you rage quit. I guess All Star should have less hazards to make it more balanced and fair, but we can't get a toggle for the same in normal modes?

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- The Wii U saw the addition of Tournies and Tournaments. This online only mode lets users create pseudo-lobbies with specific rulesets. Except it's missing 1v1 as an option, so its utility is somewhat less than it could be. Also Nintendo now hosts online Tournaments that run about every 15 minutes. These have various themes. Most allow Miis. So it's okay to use your Hitler Mii with randoms in this mode, but For Glory is completely off limits for Adolf to kick butt because of reasons.

- Improved 3DS AI. At release Olimar was basically useless. His Pikmin were determined to kill themselves, so he was a challenge to use. AI was also really, really bad. Even at 9, the AI would often just not recover, walk off ledges or just forget they were playing Smash. Those were all fixed and optimized and now the AI of Pikmin and CPU players is almost to the level of the Wii U. Nice job with this, optimization can be tricky, and they've managed to do well here.

- Youtube replays. On the Wii U you can record your replays and upload them to YouTube. This is useful because replays are made useless after every balance patch (every few months). But not quite as useful because it takes forever and is limited to around three minutes, much shorter than a lot of matches, which can run up to 8 minutes at times.

And of course DLC. What would a modern game be without DLC.

- Four new characters. Three vets and one New Comer. Fan favorite Mewtwo returns from a decade hiatus to torment the battlefield as the second lightest fighter in the game and one of the tallest fighters. A potent mix of glass and... sort of a cannon! For some reason the world's most powerful Pokemon has never quite fit well, balance wise, into Smash. He was also super glitchey at release, banning players if they used him in 10 Man Smash. Then came Lucas. Legit tears were shed by the Internet as Lucas returned to the battle after being cut rather surprisingly. Then came Our Boy and Ryu. Roy was a surprise addition to some because many assumed he wasn't really popular or there were too many Fire Emblem characters. Those people were wrong, Roy is the best. He was also decloned a bit, with new animations, and a great new redesign. Ryu was Smash's first DLC new comer. He came to Smash with a completely unique control scheme that lets you use fighting game inputs for special attacks and he has different standard attacks depending on how long you push the button. A really cool character people didn't know they wanted until he was in the game.

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- Four new stages. With Ryu came our first new DLC stage, Suzaku Castle, which is based on his stage from Street Fighter II. A really nice looking stage, but sorely lacks Guile's Theme. I guess it doesn't go with everything. We also got (arguably) the most balanced stage in the series, Dreamland 64. This stage also came with the sorely missed Fountain of Dreams music, along with other good music. A nice and appreciated stage. And then two more veteran stages from the 64, Peach's Castle and Hyrule Castle. They are basically the same as they've always been, and also come with new music. Six different versions of the Zelda Main Theme and some classic Mario Music.

- More Mii Hats! Taking a cue from Valve, Nintendo sells costumes for Miis including popular characters like Fighting Game Minecraft Man, One Armed Tan Swordfighter, Obese Wonky Eyed Crocodile, Freddie Fozbear, and Everyone's Favorite Stage Hazard™. On a serious note, the costumes are well designed and fun, Protoman is especially great because a well made Mii basically adds Protoman to the roster because of how well done the costume is.

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All and all, Smash 4 has a had a great year. It was one of the biggest games at EVO and always makes a huge splash when it's at tournaments. People enjoy watching and playing Smash 4 and the constant balance updates has turned a game that had okay balance into an extremely well balanced fighter with large character and stage diversity.

Who knows what updates and DLC will come in the future. What leaks will bring a tear to Sakurai's eye, and when it'll all end and the feeling of crippling emptiness will fall upon everyone until the Smash 5 hype train starts rolling? There's still the Fighter Ballot that's ending soon, and apparently a character will come from that, so we at least know DLC will go into next year. Will the entire roster of Melee return? Will Snake ever come back? When the heck are they finally adding Wolf like we all know they will? Will K Rool stay dead or will he rise again?

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Also, apparently some pop singer is literally bribing people to vote for Krystal. Hopefully this doesn't influence much.

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/status/641441078118187008

I've already marked the votes. I'm planning on posting the results with and without the influx of Krystal votes. There's ~400 of them, and they all occurred within a span of 30 minutes they are easy to identify.

That ballot is here, for those who haven't voted.

Thanks for sharing the new article. I'm glad to be finished with the research. I started it about a month ago, but I've been distracted with the Shovel Knight Rumors, and my promotion on SmashBoards. The article should explain how I collected the "votes" and the meaning behind the data. Let me know if you have any questions (though I'll be going to sleep soon...its 3:30 AM in Japan land)...I'll get back to them when I wake up.
 
http://www.sourcegaming.info/2015/09/13/japantopdlcpt2/

Great article that echoes what I've been saying for months. Also dispels the notion that "Pichu is super popular in Japan just because he's a vet!"

I'm not sure people were saying Pichu is super popular, more that he has some popularity and isn't outright hated. Honestly, top 20 isn't bad at all, especially with Pichu beating other characters like Ridley and Chrom you hear tossed around often.
 
I'm not sure people were saying Pichu is super popular, more that he has some popularity and isn't outright hated. Honestly, top 20 isn't bad at all, especially with Pichu beating other characters like Ridley and Chrom you hear tossed around often.

Ridley is a stage hazard and Chrom is part of Robin's Final Smash. Beating those two is hardly an accomplishment. :p
 
they never said that, don't twist their words, by that logic they want like five or six more Mario characters, plus two DK characters

Also yay for those results, Rool is the rooler!
 
they never said that, don't twist their words, by that logic they want like five or six more Mario characters, plus two DK characters

Also yay for those results, Rool is the rooler!

Well, the underepped part Japan does believe. Makes sense, Kirby is pretty popular in Japan.

I'm surprised K Rool actually went up in popularity, considering the Mii Costume.
 
Also I knew the Pichu train was a scam
Called it

WTf? How does "3 Kirby character in top 50" = "Japan wants 3 newcomers for Kirby added for a total of 6?" That's a falseity
 
I'm sure you're pleased that Japan feels the Kirby series is underepped and deserves three more reps, while Dixie's popularity slips slightly.

I don't think anybody would be outraged if Kirby receives more reps, but priority should be given to underrepresented franchises like Donkey Kong, which doesn't even have an Assist Trophy. It's madness, I tell you.

Also I knew the Pichu train was a scam
Called it

WTf? How does "3 Kirby character in top 50" = "Japan wants 3 newcomers for Kirby added for a total of 6?" That's a falseity

Yeah, those characters are effectively competing for spots. Saying "Japan wants six Kirby characters" is a bit disingenuous.
 
Also I knew the Pichu train was a scam
Called it

WTf? How does "3 Kirby character in top 50" = "Japan wants 3 newcomers for Kirby added for a total of 6?" That's a falseity
The Pichu train is in the top 20 right around people like Isaac. Would you say the "Isaac" train is a scam?

It doesn't, I was joking.

I don't think anybody would be outraged if Kirby receives more reps, but priority should be given to underrepresented franchises like Donkey Kong, which doesn't even have an Assist Trophy. It's madness, I tell you.
Well, it appears to Japan, Kirby is an underrepresented franchise.
 

Javier

Member
I've already marked the votes. I'm planning on posting the results with and without the influx of Krystal votes. There's ~400 of them, and they all occurred within a span of 30 minutes they are easy to identify.

That ballot is here, for those who haven't voted.

Thanks for sharing the new article. I'm glad to be finished with the research. I started it about a month ago, but I've been distracted with the Shovel Knight Rumors, and my promotion on SmashBoards. The article should explain how I collected the "votes" and the meaning behind the data. Let me know if you have any questions (though I'll be going to sleep soon...its 3:30 AM in Japan land)...I'll get back to them when I wake up.
Who's "Miciah" (#25)? Is that supposed to be Micaiah from Fire Emblem?

If it's her, that's a lot higher that I expected her to be.
 

jph139

Member
Yeah, mildly surprised to see that Japan sees Kirby as a "needs more reps" franchise, since it's firmly in the "nah, it's all set" category here in the West. Glad to see that the lack of DK characters is understood universally, though.
 
Yeah, mildly surprised to see that Japan sees Kirby as a "needs more reps" franchise, since it's firmly in the "nah, it's all set" category here in the West. Glad to see that the lack of DK characters is understood universally, though.

It's because the West always underassumes Kirby's popularity. Kirby titles sell a ton. They should be mentioned in the same breath as Zelda and Metroid, but rarely are over here.
 
Zelda > DK > Kirby > Metroid with regard to how major they are

I am glad DK fans did not stay quiet in the lead up to the ballot or else people might have just kept on saying that THE SERIES ONLY NEEDS DK AND DIDDY like they did right after K.Rool and Dixie got deconfirmed for the original game. Now they are a force around the world!!!
 

jph139

Member
It's because the West always underassumes Kirby's popularity. Kirby titles sell a ton. They should be mentioned in the same breath as Zelda and Metroid, but rarely are over here.

The fact that we still include Metroid as part of the "Major Nintendo Franchise" group is a bit odd, honestly. At this point it's fallen so solidly to the wayside that it's really more of an also-ran...

I guess there's good reason the "Big 4" in Smash has always been Mario, Link, Kirby, and Pikachu.
 
DK should of been the fourth series along with of those three not Kirby going by sales, but then again Sakurai

It is strange to see NeoGAF say that Metroid isn't major because it was NeoGAF yelling about how Retro should of made Metroid to be a "system seller" for the Wii U instead of ducking Donkey Kong
 

Zubz

Banned
But Roy's already in the game.

Maybe this is using pre-Roy statistics but was made post Roy-veal (Since it's using his Smash 4 art)? I mean, if he was such a high percentage of the votes, removing him would leave a chunk of the votes unaccounted for.
 

jph139

Member
Roy and Ryu are both being accounted for in the polls, so I assume this data was collected (in part, at least) before they were revealed but after Lucas was.
 

IntelliHeath

As in "Heathcliff"
I wonder if we are actually going to get 4th representative for Kirby franchise in the future. Japanese posters' requests were completely different from our requests, so I didn't expect to see two Kirby characters being in top 20.

Edited: to clarify something, I meant Bandana Dee is something that I would expected to see in top 20, but not other Kirby character.
 
If every new comer gets a stage bundled with them, as I think they will, that means another Kirby stage and more Kirby remixes with Waddle Dee ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Watching this makes me want Waddle Dee. He'd have a pretty interesting moveset, especially for a Kirby character. Quick with some decent range, only one jumps (probably, since his multiple jump animation is odd) and some interesting specials with spears that can charge to throw multiple or used quickly in the air to maintain air momentum like Jiggly's Pound.

Also if you search for Bandanna Waddle Dee on Youtube, it comes up with 75% Smash Bros related videos, about as much percent as K Rool's results.

Waddle Dee, the silent winner of the ballot?

Mii hat incoming

I wonder if we are actually going to get 4th representative for Kirby franchise in the future. Japanese posters' requests were completely different from our requests, so I didn't expect to see two Kirby characters being in top 20.

Edited: to clarify something, I meant Bandana Dee is something that I would expected to see top 20, but not other Kirby character.

I think Waddle Dee probably has the best shot of any new comer, pretty much entirely because of his popularity in Japan. I think the Japanese ballot will weigh more heavily than the western ballot.

I think this is the first time the west has even ever been included in one of these Smash suggestion boxes. That might be a good sign to some people that they're including more outside of Japan... but I just kind of feel like they did that just because they basically had to in the age of the Internet.

The game is a Japanese game made by Japanese developers, so the Japanese ballot probably falls more in line with what the developers envision as a popular character over what may actually have more "votes" overall due to international appeal.

If we go by the Mii Costume taking K Rool out (which it may have, we don't really know, but I believe so), then Waddle Dee is the #1 most request new comer.
 

Regulus Tera

Romanes Eunt Domus
The idea that a series deserves more reps than another series is honestly the worst part about Smash character discussions on the internet.
 
It's always the people who are happy with their series' stuff in Smash who argue that and say that those who aren't happy should just shut up and go away. Like I said it is a great thing DK fans have not done that, since it is not like universally accepted that the series got a raw deal.
 
It's always the people who are happy with their series' stuff in Smash who argue that and say that those who aren't happy should just shut up and go away. Like I said it is a great thing DK fans have not done that, since it is not like universally accepted that the series got a raw deal.

A lot of series are unrepped in Smash besides DK. Notably, Zelda.

Zelda has 2 clones, one of which is the main villain of the entire series in his human form. The series hasn't had a new character since Melee (sorry Toon Link), and only has a few stages compared to other series its size. There are 8 billion variations of the main theme and the dark world overworld, and the most visually interesting stage the series has ever had was cut for a model rip from Twilight Princess. And then they added basically a model rip of Ocarina of Time as DLC (with 6 different versions of the same song), so chances aren't good we ever get Pirate Ship back.

In the base Wii U game, Donkey Kong has as many stages as Zelda does. 20 million more lifetime sales than Donkey Kong (Wikipedia numbers) and much, much stronger legacy as far as mass appeal goes. If K Rool/Dixie gets in, Donkey Kong will have as many unique fighters as Zelda, a series that beats it, largely, in sales and brand awareness.

So you can't really say "DK beats Kirby in sales, therefore the character should go to DK" because then you have to ignore the elephant in the room of the Zelda series, since a Zelda fan can turn around and use the same argument.
 

PK Gaming

Member
The idea that a series deserves more reps than another series is honestly the worst part about Smash character discussions on the internet.

Word

Smash fans are straight up fanatical when it comes to that sort of thing. I get wanting your favs to make it in, but I refuse to the subscribe to the notion that one particular series deserves more reps over another. I've always been a proponent of making interesting characters into fighters, regardless of franchise, and i'm super glad Sakurai has opted to follow that mentality
 
Well there are a few series that should have more characters than others, notably Mario and Pokemon should always have the most fighters just because those series are absolutely enormous, and no series in Smash even comes close to those two as far as cultural importance and sales. Sonic and Miis are the closest, and even then, Pokemon has 100 million more and Mario has 300 million more lifetime sales. And that's raw game sales, that ignores the piles of merchandise they have, especially Pokemon, which honestly, with merchandise, might beat Mario in raw dollar totals, but I don't think we'll ever really know.

I don't really think Mario and Pokemon could ever really have a "cap" on how many characters they "should" have.

If the size of the series truly determined the roster, 50% of the roster would be Pokemon and Mario characters, while loads of series wouldn't even be able to fit on the roster. So... it's kind of pointless to bring up what "size" a series is to try and figure out how many newcomers it "should" get.

I'm sure when picking a DLC new comer and deciding between Waddle Dee and K Rool, Sakurai isn't going to look up the sales of DKC compared to games B Waddle Dee has been in and pick the winner. Because that would be stupid.
 

jph139

Member
Taking the SourceGaming poll made me realize how much I prefer random obscure weirdo characters to mainstream, entrenched choices. Give me random NES characters, guys from forgotten Japan-only series, and supporting characters from GBA one-and-dones. The most interesting choices are always the ones you never expected.
 
The idea that a series deserves more reps than another series is honestly the worst part about Smash character discussions on the internet.
This, so much. I see people arguing stuff like this all the time. If they want to debate the merits of a character, that's fine, but acting like each series should have their own quota for fighters is totally ridiculous.
Taking the SourceGaming poll made me realize how much I prefer random obscure weirdo characters to mainstream, entrenched choices. Give me random NES characters, guys from forgotten Japan-only series, and supporting characters from GBA one-and-dones. The most interesting choices are always the ones you never expected.
I wouldn't say I want an obscure weirdo character, but pretty much all the characters I'd really want are left-field, and more than anything I want to be surprised by whoever we get. I think part of it is that Smash discussion feels pretty incestuous. It's always the same people talking about the same choices, so wanting to see a total upset isn't weird to me.
 

Dr. Buni

Member
The idea that a series deserves more reps than another series is honestly the worst part about Smash character discussions on the internet.
But it is true. It is easy to say that when your favorite Nintendo franchises are well represented, but not so much when your favorite franchise only have two playable characters while some crappy franchises have five ^_^
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
I'm always pro oddball characters. It's more fun to get a character that one never expected.

That's why the reveal was so great - An originally ruled out character (Villager), a retired third party character (MegaMan) and one no one guessed (Wii Fit Trainer).
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
Thing is, I'm pretty sure it was Eguchi that didn't want an Animal Crossing character to originally be a fighter. It was his mind that would need changing rather than Sakurai's.

Googling I can only find an old GameFAQs topic about the subject.

Interestingly, there was a fake interview with Eguchi posted back in the day which made out he helped design a Animal Crossing fighter for Sakurai and it basically predicted Villager perfectly.
 

Ryce

Member
Thing is, I'm pretty sure it was Eguchi that didn't want an Animal Crossing character to originally be a fighter. It was his mind that would need changing rather than Sakurai's.

Googling I can only find an old GameFAQs topic about the subject.

Interestingly, there was a fake interview with Eguchi posted back in the day which made out he helped design a Animal Crossing fighter for Sakurai and it basically predicted Villager perfectly.
I don't know how the rumor picked up steam, but there isn't anything linking Eguchi to Villager's exclusion from Brawl. It was Sakurai's decision to leave him out; at the time, Sakurai thought Animal Crossing was too peaceful to warrant a fighter. I'm guessing the series' massive jump in popularity since 2005 made Sakurai reconsider his position.
 

BGBW

Maturity, bitches.
I don't know how the rumor picked up steam, but there isn't anything linking Eguchi to Villager's exclusion from Brawl. It was Sakurai's decision to leave him out; at the time, Sakurai thought Animal Crossing was too peaceful to warrant a fighter. I'm guessing the series' massive jump in popularity since 2005 made Sakurai reconsider his position.

Brawl era was full of misinformation. Remember reports of Rosalina as an assist trophy?
 
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