Dimitri LH
Member
.....anyone feel hopeful for KOS-MOS with that Project X Zone 2 reveal? ;w;
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Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
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Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
too lewd for Sm4sh
Dimitri LH
Member
balladofwindfishes
Member
Lucina is easily one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters, ever, and will continue to make appearances in games well into the future. She's not going anywhere, at all.
Also they wouldn't update Roy to the modern age, only to cut him again and have to remake him entirely if they needed him for Smash 6. He'll be around, pending any crippling time crunches, like Brawl had.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
shirtless furry men are fine, go ask DK!
Green Mamba
Member
I really doubt they care much about what the hypothetical roster of the Smash after the next is when coming up with rosters.
balladofwindfishes
Member
No game that came after FE6 outsold FE6 in Japan until Awakening. Roy's game absolutely was a standout game, at least in terms of sales. It's one of the better selling FE games.
Ike stays because he's a popular FE lord in the west, and his technique is unique. There's no other brutish heavy sword users in Smash, and not many to even pick from to replace him. Also in a series of fancy pants royals, Ike is just a really good mercenary.
Hey now DK is very clearly wearing a tie like a decent gorilla.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
NeonZ
Member
That's somewhat different though. The difference between Lucina and Marth at this point is basically just a balance mechanic, rather than actual different abilities. It's like saying that Marth wouldn't be Marth without his range, but yet it was cut down in SSB4.
Regarding differentiating her, the main issue is Sakurai's trend of wanting to keep the identity of characters that are originally introduced as clones. The next game won't have the ram issues of the 3ds, so they could do things like incorporating Dual Attack or even class changes, but that's all unlikely due to Sakurai's approach to differentiating clones.
As far as special attacks go, I guess her front B could be changed into her two hit Aether (which is an horizontal moving attack completely different from Ike's). For standard attacks, there's a triple stab in Fates and some leap slashes that are shared by both in Fates, but aren't used by Marth in Smash and could be added to just Lucina's moveset. It'd be hard to make her actually stand out though, even if her attacks are animated differently, while staying true to her animations in Awakening and Fates, if her character isn't heavily revamped in the first place. If Sakurai were willing to heavily revamp her, aside from using mechanics like dual attack and class change, she could easily get attacks with lances and spears and maybe even bows (Archer is one of Chrom's and Lucina's default classes, and she uses bows in Codename STEAM without any class change), which would easily make her stand out from Marth.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
is it dumb that I wish that Lucina would have Robin's Final smash since Lucina and Robin could have done something different since both uses swords.
Yes please
balladofwindfishes
Member
A new idle animation holding her sword up like she does and her standard attacks being changed could go a long way without really changing how she plays.
I find a lot of the superficial animations of clones go a long way. Stuff like run, walk, jumps and rolls can make a character feel a lot more different than they actually might be. Changing Smash attacks and Special animations work well too, even if they're functionally identical (Warlock Punch, Blazer or Flare Blade for example).
So far Doc is the only full clone in the series to return with no significant animation changes. But his circumstances are odd compared to other clones (being that he basically was a last minute addition in both the games he appears in) and Mario's changes means Doc has a few unique aspects.
So yea, if/when Lucina returns in 5, there's no reason at all to expect that she wouldn't have changes to make her more unique.
I think it's worth mentioning no neutral special in the series has ever been changed, except in the transition to side specials in Melee. Otherwise they've always remained exactly the same, besides updating animations. So Dark Pit bow and Shield Breaker are probably on them forever. It's too bad they didn't name them like Melee. Melee changed the names of basically every clone attack, even stuff like Roy's side special and Doc's Down Special, which were basically just stat changes. So at least there would be a hint of being unique.
I find a lot of the superficial animations of clones go a long way. Stuff like run, walk, jumps and rolls can make a character feel a lot more different than they actually might be. Changing Smash attacks and Special animations work well too, even if they're functionally identical (Warlock Punch, Blazer or Flare Blade for example).
So far Doc is the only full clone in the series to return with no significant animation changes. But his circumstances are odd compared to other clones (being that he basically was a last minute addition in both the games he appears in) and Mario's changes means Doc has a few unique aspects.
So yea, if/when Lucina returns in 5, there's no reason at all to expect that she wouldn't have changes to make her more unique.
I think it's worth mentioning no neutral special in the series has ever been changed, except in the transition to side specials in Melee. Otherwise they've always remained exactly the same, besides updating animations. So Dark Pit bow and Shield Breaker are probably on them forever. It's too bad they didn't name them like Melee. Melee changed the names of basically every clone attack, even stuff like Roy's side special and Doc's Down Special, which were basically just stat changes. So at least there would be a hint of being unique.
NeonZ
Member
The main issue that I see is that she has no niche of her own. Even if they give her the "holding sword in front of her face" stance, her basic concept "doesn't have a tipper, but is otherwise similar to Marth" really isn't a good foundation to make her stand out unless she branches out from it. I guess the lack of tipper could lead to her having more slashing attacks than Marth, but Marth's moveset itself already has many slash attacks, and only a few stabs. It'd also be ignoring her own source material, where she does have stabbing attacks too in addition to some slashes.
TheDinoman
Member
Technically, Dark Pit's neutral special does have a different name from Pit's Palutena Bow. It's the Silver Bow from Kid Icarus Uprising. One of the in-game loading tips calls it that as well.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Yea, but in Melee, his up special probably would have been called Pandora/Viridi Wings or something creative like that. In the guide for Smash 4, it's called Pandora Wings, so maybe they planned on naming it unique, but didn't end up finishing it.
Anyway, next week starts soon. I imagine we'll hear more about the 30th DLC hitting.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Since Brawl we had weird localization.
For instance all of Wolf's B moves have different names outside of Reflector, yes even the Final Smash. It's Claw Buster, Wolf Flash, Wolf Shoot, and Landmaster Change. For some odd reason they made it lazy and simply copy-pasted Blaster, Fire Wolf and Landmaster on him.
For instance all of Wolf's B moves have different names outside of Reflector, yes even the Final Smash. It's Claw Buster, Wolf Flash, Wolf Shoot, and Landmaster Change. For some odd reason they made it lazy and simply copy-pasted Blaster, Fire Wolf and Landmaster on him.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
I have a weird feeling that they are going to wait until September 28, or that would be only DLC stuff that we are going to get on September 30
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Last two weeks of the ballot. D:
balladofwindfishes
Member
Claw Buster is a cool name for his blaster.
Also lol Fire Wolf. No fire particles at all.
Also lol Fire Wolf. No fire particles at all.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Still a cooler name.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
That's best way for anyone to go with if anyone only care about characters. I'm hyped as heck for Super Mario Maker stage because it really look a lot of fun. I meant random generated stage with a lot of potential changes in the stage.
Only 12 more days with the ballots.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I'd be curious to see how well a new stage with no character will do.
Since the last DLC seems hardly owned by anyone from my observations of tourney more settings.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah my bad, still it's way cooler and more poignant than just Blaster. Right out the bat you're shown that it's a different move.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I think Wolf Shoot is the biggest offender. It's clearly supposed to be an entirely different move that's only vaguely similar in style to Fire Fox. But the name Fire Wolf makes it sound like a clone move.
Green Mamba
Member
Fire Wolf is fine--the move is like a bizarro version of Fox and Falco's, so whatever.
Names are pretty poor measures of how different a move is anyway, when Mario's Cape and Dr. Mario's Super Sheet are about as similar as clone moves typically come.
Names are pretty poor measures of how different a move is anyway, when Mario's Cape and Dr. Mario's Super Sheet are about as similar as clone moves typically come.
balladofwindfishes
Member
It works nothing like Fire Fox at all and doesn't even have fire. It's a poor name that makes an otherwise unique move seem like a cloned move.
It's more similar to Swordsman's Skyward Slash or ZSS' up special than Fire Fox.
It's more similar to Swordsman's Skyward Slash or ZSS' up special than Fire Fox.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yeah it is essentially ZSS's up b except you can aim it. It even has the final kick thing! It's why I was rightfully panicking when ZSS was shown to have a new move!
Green Mamba
Member
I dunno, I don't really want to get deep into an argument of semantics, but Fire Wolf feels like it's based on Fire Fox like Ganondorf's Dark Dive is based on the Falcon Dive, but it's missing the initial Melee step there and started out properly Luigified. I mean, if Wolf was on fire, I think there would be no question it is a Fox move. It, like the rest of his special moves, feels like they started with the Fox/Falco base, and looked at it and said "Now how can we make it very different?" It's Fire Fox, but without the charge, different animation, drags enemies, and has a final kick, much like his Reflector is like Fox's, but with a larger hitbox, different design, different reflecting power, and no stalling ability. Beyond the superficiality of the lack of fire, I think they're supposed to be the same base. It'd be strange if that was the one move in his special move repertoire that wasn't based on Fox and Falco. His normals are all different but I think it's clear his special moves are supposed to be "Bizarro Star Fox."
Except the Landmaster, that's just red.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Oh Wolf definitely uses Star Fox template for his specials, but rather than simply copying them and altering some stats, they instead are different moves altogether but are familiar enough to fit the template.
Even his Reflector is more unique with the "evasion" effect that it acts more like a counter with reflecting properties.
Even his Reflector is more unique with the "evasion" effect that it acts more like a counter with reflecting properties.
balladofwindfishes
Member
If Fire Wolf were on any other character unrelated to Star Fox nobody would claim it was a modified move from Fire Fox.
People will claim they're derived from Fire Wolf however
People will claim they're derived from Fire Wolf however
GiantBreadbug
Member
Man talking about Wolf makes me miss him a lot more than I already did 
Fingers crossed that he gets a new FS when he comes back tho
Fingers crossed that he gets a new FS when he comes back tho
DICKS AHOY
Banned
If Lucas is any indication they'll take away even more from Wolf's FS. Didn't Lucas' unique pose he strikes in Brawl for Starstorm get swapped out with Ness' pose in Smash 4?Man talking about Wolf makes me miss him a lot more than I already did
Fingers crossed that he gets a new FS when he comes back tho
I'd be fine with Wolf having a Landmaster if it looked more like a counterfeit ripoff of Fox's redesigned to have more firepower rather than being a literal recolor. Falco should probably get an arwing just to differentiate him slightly more, plus so the main vehicle of Star Fox is actually usable for once in a Smash battle. Especially since they already show up in stages regularly.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Every unique aspect of Lucas' Final Smash was lost in Smash 4. The different colored meteors, his different pose, and the slightly different travel angle. They didn't even bother changing the sound to not be from Earthbound.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Man talking about Wolf makes me miss him a lot more than I already did
Fingers crossed that he gets a new FS when he comes back tho
I still hope to see Wolf coming back in Smash!
Yeah, I hoped that we would get Final Smash from Smash to different him from Ness but I guess there is a reason for that.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Lucina's Critical Hit and Lucas' PK Star Storm are the only Final Smashes in the game to be 100% cloned. All the others have unique attributes or unique visuals. Which is why Lucas' is jarring, because he's so different from Ness, but his Final Smash is identical (even when it previously wasn't).
I'm not sure why they didn't bother making Lucas' Final Smash unique at all and didn't even port his Brawl pose over. It really doesn't take a lot to recolor the particles yellow and rip a sound effect from Mother 3, and slap some +/- percents onto it.
Especially since they gave Roy a unique Final Smash lol
I'm not sure why they didn't bother making Lucas' Final Smash unique at all and didn't even port his Brawl pose over. It really doesn't take a lot to recolor the particles yellow and rip a sound effect from Mother 3, and slap some +/- percents onto it.
Especially since they gave Roy a unique Final Smash lol
Green Mamba
Member
I think you could argue similarly for Ganondorf's Dark Dive as it is now--had it been on a character entirely separate from a Captain Falcon source I don't think anyone would claim it was modified from Falcon Dive.
balladofwindfishes
Member
They wouldn't. Which means it's a unique move.
We don't know what other moves are based on what. Falcon and Little Mac share a few inconsequential animations. Based on that, Little Mac's side special could be a heavily modified Raptor Boost as well, for all we know. It's somewhat similar in that it's a horizontal leap with a punch at the end.
Which is why if a move is so drastically changed that it's barely recognizable from its base, it should be considered a unique move.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
FYI they only changed Lucas because of how PK Starstorm animated. It's the same reason why Triple D's FS is changed. Apparently many things on screen shits up the 3DS. By becoming a volley of meteor shower that moves really fast they save a lot of resources. The older PK Starstorm had slow meteors and are scattered, meaning many of them are on-screen.
So yeah go blame 3DS.
Wolf's FS change is merely statistical so I doubt they'd change his FS.
With that said I want them to go Road Roller on him.
So yeah go blame 3DS.
Wolf's FS change is merely statistical so I doubt they'd change his FS.
With that said I want them to go Road Roller on him.
That could explain it being mechanically identical to Ness'; but not why Lucas' pose was reverted, or the colour of the projectiles.
balladofwindfishes
Member
The pose is especially weird to omit, since they seem to have just ripped 90% of Lucas' animations directly from Brawl. Why not just make it 92% and rip the Final Smash animation...
MrSaturn99
Member
I'm still bummed Dedede didn't get Masked Dedede as an FS. What an obvious choice that was!
Gonzo The Great
Banned
Red Arremer
Member
The Kremling in the back is adorable.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
And before anybody asks, Nintendo Power used to mistakenly and frequently refer to Dixie as "Daisy Kong".
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