Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Smash Tour is fun if you have people around playing it. Also it gives plenty of customs.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Smash Wii U & 3DS Downloadable Characters Discussion and Information on Smash Ballot
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
- Status
balladofwindfishes
Member
Only one clone in the series has never returned and we're still not even sure Pichu is gone forever.
The ease of developing clones means they have a better chance of coming back.
According to the Nintendo Downloads thread, Nintendo has been on vacation this week, and just got back today, which might explain the total lack of news for anything this week.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Tell that to all the kids at SmashBoards who want Young Link back. :/
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
They did! His new name is Toon Link. It sound much fancier! Also he got a new look, including those big cat-liked eyes!
I'd rather not make contact with them.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
I for one I'm still pissed that they replaced Ocarina of Time Link with Edgy Link.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I don't really know where this new found popularity for Young Link has come from. I've seen it around as well.
For basically, ever, people have always just considered Toon Link to be Young Link with a new design, but the same basic move set. Essentially, Young Link had never been cut, just renamed and redesigned visually.
People have this (recently popular) idea in their head that Sakurai would add Goron, Zora and Deku Link as transformations, effectively adding four Zelda characters at once. Not only is this kind of ridiculous to think there would be 6 different Links in Smash, but also that transformations are gone and probably not coming back.
There's even random cosmetic stuff Young Link would require to be unique. Toon Link inherited his idle animation and his hit sounds, which, at what point do you go "maybe these characters are meant to be the same character" when their idle animations are the same (but different from Link's). That's such a random, minor cosmetic thing for both to share, and there wouldn't really be a reason to make the idle animations exactly the same, as they needed to animate it all over again for Toon Link anyway (so they could have essentially made it anything). The hit sound is another thing, because Link and Toon Link use exactly the same sword, but Toon Link's still sounds like the Kokiri Sword.
It might be a combination of Roy and Doc coming back (clones people assumed were gone forever), along with Majora's Mask 3D selling well that got people anxious for Young Link back. But for the majority of people, Young Link never left and is still very much a character in Smash. It took me like a year to stop calling Toon Link, Young Link when Brawl first came out. And now when I play Melee, I call Young Link, Toon Link. I guess I can't really separate them in my head.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Actually, that reminds me of yet another cosmetic Young Link thing that Toon Link inherited.
Him being "classic" Link.
Young Link's trophy mentions how he's supposed to be the "classic" Link, which is a trait that Toon Link has inherited with two of his alt colors.
NeonZ
Member
Young Link from Melee was actually from Ocarina of Time, not Majora's Mask. That always bothered me, considering the Great Bay stage. He had the Deku Shield, rather than MM's Hero Shield, and his bow was just the same one used by adult Link with its size reduced (and randomly with fire arrows), rather than the one from Majora's Nask.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
I feel like Octoling could be a simple clone of Inkling.
Nocturnowl
Member
Forget that Young Link fella, the next Zelda rep will be a Toon Link clone called Triforce Hero to advertise the upcoming 3DS game, he will once again miss the opportunity to mix up the moveset with different tools but he will at least have the Toon Zelda costume so fans can finally get that fix.
Green Mamba
Member
I didn't say never return--Dr. Mario and Roy skipped a game, and Dr. Mario was definitely the easiest Melee clone to develop. But you didn't really answer my question. Whenever a character being potentially cut comes up you have an excuse for all of them why they won't be--so who do you think could miss out the next Smash?
balladofwindfishes
Member
Nobody.
I don't see a realistic situation where the development of Smash 5 starts from scratch and doesn't just start as a higher res port of Smash 4. The pieces are all there and they developed a style that will have longevity, along with making the game easy to expand.
How much more accurate or "nicer" could most of the characters and their animations possibly get at this point that would make it worth redoing them a fifth time?
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Pichu as a Marth clone!
I find it incoherent; it's just multiplayer event matches tied together by a board game using Calvinball logic, in my eyes. There're probably more frustrating features in the game, like an inability to reset event matches, and I respect that you like it, but Smash Tour just feels like you're watching some Elder God play Smash for you.
I assumed it'd be a "Best of Both Worlds" kind of deal.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Ah yes, the Ganondorf debacle. The guy is a combination of king, warlock, thief, swordsman and athlete. He can create illusions, resurrect the dead, shoot lightning, cause earthquakes, copy himself, slice people up, spear people with a trident, and turn himself into a giant pig demon known as the King of Evil. He has arguably the largest possibility of potential diverse movesets in the whole game, with an insane amount of possible combinations that would all faithfully draw from who he is - one of the most powerful, recognizable, and evil villains in all of Nintendo's franchises. And what do they make him in Nintendo's fighting game franchise, a love letter to all of Nintendo's past and present?
A Captain Falcon clone.
I'm calling bullshit, Sakurai.
A Captain Falcon clone.
I'm calling bullshit, Sakurai.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Ganondorf has been in 3 Zelda games and one spin off. 3/4 of those came out after he was already in Smash with an established move set. Of those four appearances he has no consistent fighting style. I guess he's also mentioned in the story of two other games, but he never shows up in them (Four Swords Adventure and Link to the Past).
I'm not really sure when Ganondorf was ever an athlete. He's always been a tall, large, imposing man, not really an athlete. He also never used a sword when he was added to Smash, other than a tech video that's obviously not canon at all.
Also Ganondorf has never once used a trident.
Also being a thief-type character in Smash wouldn't work because Ganondorf sneaking around with a dagger would look silly.
I'm not really sure when Ganondorf was ever an athlete. He's always been a tall, large, imposing man, not really an athlete. He also never used a sword when he was added to Smash, other than a tech video that's obviously not canon at all.
Also Ganondorf has never once used a trident.
Also being a thief-type character in Smash wouldn't work because Ganondorf sneaking around with a dagger would look silly.
Starphoenix
Member
I feel like Ganondorf's move set is pretty much fine as is. My only complaint was the lack of a magic ball special.
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
If they are going to offer a DLC that would promote Alph into clone status for two dollars, then I'm all in for that.
If not then I'm still not sure about Alph's future because it's really depend on Pikmin 4. If they are going to use same three characters from Pikmin 3 in Pikmin 4 then I could see Alph become his own character.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Pros
- Doesn't require Ganondorf's now iconic moveset to be removed
- Is in far more games than Ganondorf, including more recent games
- Has a consistent design and a (mostly) consistent move set
- Has a trident
- Can shoot bats
- A beast
- Brass knuckles
- Is blue
Cons
- Has a tiny red hat
Ganondorf is as tall as a Smash character can be, and his beast form is supposed to be much larger than his humanoid form. A playable beast Ganon that's the same size as Ganondorf would look terrible and is probably never going to happen. That's what Ganondorf's Final Smash is for.
NeonZ
Member
I don't see why that's somehow a negative. It'd just give more material to be used for his character, if he weren't tied to C.Falcon's moveset. Like that site with an analysis of his animations pointed out, the animation changes in Brawl often took inspiration from animations from various games. However, what they don't actually mention there is that those homages often needed to be compromised in various ways to fit within the Melee Ganondorf mold and there are many important elements that can't be referenced due to the characters being stuck with that model.
Although, really, I think people would focus a lot less on Ganondorf if Zelda actually got new characters. But, after the big jump in Melee, with 4 characters added,although two were last minute clones, Zelda only got the Young -> Toon Link revamp. So, people will constantly complain about the lack of a new Ganondorf since there aren't new characters at all.
Ganon could easily use a body build similar to Bowser's with a thick and tall body, but curved legs. Bowser standing straight is even bigger than Smash Ganondorf. Reduce Ganondorf's size a bit more too and it works (he's already much smaller than in Twilight Princess anyway). Alternatively, there's Demise, who could also basically be used for an alternate take on Ganondorf.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Totally understandable for Melee. Not so much for Brawl and Wii U.
They can use elements of Ganon - there's no reason why not. Any attack Ganon did in a game can be translated to Smash. Energy balls, trident, anything. It still translates to the character of Ganon.
He rides horseback and uses a sword - he's an athlete. And he's used a sword in Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. And I didn't say he could use a dagger. My point is that there's so much to that character that they could build from and they don't use any of it.
I understand why he was a clone in Melee. That stops being a valid reason after that point. Especially since Luigi has changed so much from Smash 64 that he has very little in common with Smash Mario at this point.
I'm not sure why people are defending this. It's a shitty thing they've done to Ganondorf in Smash, and no amount of excuses will change that.
Beast Ganon and Ganon are different. One is a transformation Ganondorf controls, the other is a permanent change.
Also are we really applying Ridley is too big arguments for Ganny?
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
What? How so?
woopWOOP
Member
It'd be a cool way to cram in more different weapons/specials as B-moves/Final Smash. Inkling gets roller for whatever move, Octolings gets Octobrush, etc.
I have a feeling that in execution they'd just end up using the exact same stuff with minor stat differences though
Not all characters are technically fit for playability in Smash Bros. Rayquaza and Groudon and Andross wouldn't work, and neither would Ganon. I don't know why the "size argument" is seen as such a taboo in this community when it's very much a legitimate concern.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Ganon can scale down well. Him being the same height as Ganondorf wouldn't really look all that weird, I think that's an exaggeration. If they use the blue boar with the trident (which they would), he's only a bit taller than Link. Roughly the same proportion as Bowser to Mario in the older games. Ganon in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess is way bigger than Ganon is usually.
Check out how crazy short Ganon is in Link Between Worlds
.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20131118083733)
That's apparently his height in Link to the Past. Link Between Worlds reinforces this by showing Ganon being about the size of about two and a half Links (Toon Link).
Ganon is a wide, bulky character. Built pretty much exactly the same as Bowser. If Bowser can scale, so can Ganon.
.png/revision/latest?cb=20091117025305)
That's just a piece of art from the game. Ganon's actual character model is absolutely massive in Link Between Worlds.Ganon can scale down well. Him being the same height as Ganondorf wouldn't really look all that weird, I think that's an exaggeration. If they use the blue boar with the trident (which they would), he's only a bit taller than Link. Roughly the same proportion as Bowser to Mario in the older games.
Check out how crazy short Ganon is in Link Between Worlds
That's apparently his height in Link to the Past. Link Between Worlds reinforces this by showing Ganon being about the size of about two and a half Links (Toon Link).
balladofwindfishes
Member
1. Ganon is floating in that scene, so he's closer to the camera
2. Even if he wasn't, he's only the height of two Yugas. Yuga being roughly the same height as a normal adult.
3. It doesn't even matter because if Bowser can scale, so can Ganon. This isn't even like Ridley, as Ganon is built exactly the same as Bowser and can scale down better than Ridley could.
2. Even if he wasn't, he's only the height of two Yugas. Yuga being roughly the same height as a normal adult.
3. It doesn't even matter because if Bowser can scale, so can Ganon. This isn't even like Ridley, as Ganon is built exactly the same as Bowser and can scale down better than Ridley could.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
The problem with Ridley is not the size, it is the proportions. Wide wingspan on a skinny frame make it difficult to scale down properly. A hypothetical Ganon wouldn't suffer from this because he has a humanoid design. Think Bowser or K. Rool.
I dunno, Sly Cooper was pretty fun to play as in PlayStation All-Stars, and he was a pretty high tier character, too. Granted, that's because he had gadgets/sacrificed his ability to block for controlled invisibility. Ganondorf'd be an old, D&D style thief, though, so I don't think that'd work.
I'm fine with Ganondorf how he is at this point, though. Even if I really just wanted more F-Zero representation, and regardless of how fitting it is for the Dorf himself, his current moveset is perfect for Black Shadow.
Actually, that so-called "con" just convinced me on wanting Beast Ganon.
I don't know man, it feels like K. Rool has a decent shot of taking it
I'm joking of course, but everyone should just go ahead and vote for Isaac anyway.
I think "giant" characters could work in smash so long as there were changes made to accommodate their size and make every other character's size more meaningful too. But Sakurai is clearly not interested in making changes of that sort to the game, so as long as he's in control I don't see anything like that happening.
UglyRareCharacter
Member
People are so way too quick to say that things won't or can't work ever in smash
It is no wonder Sakurai so often shocks a fan base with so little creative thinking as to how to push the envelope with characters!
Giant characters would be sweet and would be balanced at least a little by being a huge target. Like people are like ARRR RIDLEY WOULD BE BROKEN BECAUSE HE IS STRONG WITH RANGE AND SPEED, but since he would be big and if Mewtwo is a sign, light too, it would even out.
Remember when Bowser was OHMIGAWD SO BROKEN because was strong with speed and some range? Now look at the poor guy
It is no wonder Sakurai so often shocks a fan base with so little creative thinking as to how to push the envelope with characters!
Giant characters would be sweet and would be balanced at least a little by being a huge target. Like people are like ARRR RIDLEY WOULD BE BROKEN BECAUSE HE IS STRONG WITH RANGE AND SPEED, but since he would be big and if Mewtwo is a sign, light too, it would even out.
Remember when Bowser was OHMIGAWD SO BROKEN because was strong with speed and some range? Now look at the poor guy
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
You do realize that deadlines exist in Brawl and Sm4sh too you know?
And you're forcing Ganon into Ganondorf. Smashverse considers the two separate, so if you really want pig moves on Dorf why not just request Ganon?
NeonZ
Member
I don't see why you think Bowser size wouldn't work. That's significantly bigger than Ganondorf already.
The real issue here is every Zelda character aside from Toon Link needing to come from the same game apparently.
Gonzo The Great
Banned
Tingle for next Zelda rep.
Speaking of Tingle, I noticed something in regards to the Amiibo costumes in Mario Maker. All of the extra costumes are for characters who probably won't get Amiibos in the future.
Waluigi - Assist Trophy (disqualified from Smash Ballot?)
Tingle - Assist Trophy
Ashley - Assist Trophy
Goomba - Too minor
Mahjong Tile - ???
etc.
The fact that they didn't include an unlockable Wolf outfit is probably a good sign.
Speaking of Tingle, I noticed something in regards to the Amiibo costumes in Mario Maker. All of the extra costumes are for characters who probably won't get Amiibos in the future.
Waluigi - Assist Trophy (disqualified from Smash Ballot?)
Tingle - Assist Trophy
Ashley - Assist Trophy
Goomba - Too minor
Mahjong Tile - ???
etc.
The fact that they didn't include an unlockable Wolf outfit is probably a good sign.
I don't think that's really an issue and just a coincidence. TP came out before Brawl and starred appropriate designs for the main characters and suited the graphical style of Brawl so they switched the OoTesque models for those. Also helped that even Sheik had a TP design.
However between Brawl and Smash 4 Ganondorf made no re-appareance, Zelda wasn't a princess and Link just sported baggier leggings so they probably felt it was best to just update the TP designs to match the style of Smash 4.
If they decide to include Ganon in the next game I don't think having to be from the same game will be a problem.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Slippy and Peppy might get Amiibos if Zero supports Amiibos (which it will). Waluigi could as well if they do a Mario series 2.
Wolf not having a costume is odd though.
Doesn't Mario Party 10 already hint towards a Waluigi Amiibo?
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Yes I know that they have deadlines. Or is your argument that they're so terrible at budgeting their time that they can't make an appropriate Ganondorf?
Ganon and Ganondorf are one in the same. Why wouldn't the Smash team know that? They're working with Nintendo, yeah?
I feel like we're reaching for excuses now. Can't we just admit that the King of Evil deserves better?
Like Samus and Zero Suit Samus?
- Status