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[Boss Doggie]

Yes I know that they have deadlines. Or is your argument that they're so terrible at budgeting their time that they can't make an appropriate Ganondorf?

Ganon and Ganondorf are one in the same. Why wouldn't the Smash team know that? They're working with Nintendo, yeah?

I feel like we're reaching for excuses now. Can't we just admit that the King of Evil deserves better?

My argument is that clones aren't really a big deal as they're shoed in for the sake of making the roster bigger while being constrained for time. This isn't poor budgeting as it is adding a few more because there's still some left over time. How this relates to "appropriate Ganondorf" baffles me.

Considering how the two looks different, and how Links can be shown differently, I don't see how they can make them separate. It's not reaching excuses if they're already on the plate to begin with.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Like Samus and Zero Suit Samus?

And Sheik and Zelda. And Mario and Doctor Mario.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

Slippy and Peppy might get Amiibos if Zero supports Amiibos (which it will). Waluigi could as well if they do a Mario series 2.

They're not going to release a separate line for Star Fox of all franchises when they already have a Falco Smash Amiibo on the way. Let's be realistic.

Doesn't Mario Party 10 already hint towards a Waluigi Amiibo?

No. The game shows three generic "non-Smash" Amiibos when you scan DK, Wario, or Rosalina, leading people to jump to conclusions about a hypothetical second wave, which Waluigi isn't even part of. Mario Party 10 bombed, so it seems unlikely at this point.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

This is hilarious. My argument is that clones aren't really a big deal as they're shoed in for the sake of making the roster bigger while being constrained for time. This isn't poor budgeting as it is adding a few more because there's still some left over time. How this relates to "appropriate Ganondorf" baffles me.

Considering how the two looks different, and how Links can be shown differently, I don't see how they can make them separate. It's not reaching excuses if they're already on the plate to begin with.

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not upset that he was a clone in Melee. I get that it was a last-minute thing. But if they know they're going to include him in the subsequent games, why wouldn't they take the time to do the character justice? They must know they want him in the next Smash games, so why wouldn't they set aside a little time to change him up? They did it for Bowser, Luigi, Yoshi (at least cosmetically, I don't know if it they actually changed his moves), Pit... Why is Ganondorf seemingly the exception? They even pointed out how they changed Bowser and Yoshi to be more in line with their games. But Ganondorf is still stuck as a clone of an F-Zero character? I just don't buy it.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about with Link though. Could you please explain it in a different way?

 

[kirby_fox]

Isn't Ganondorf a main of Sakurai? Not to imply he hasn't changed him because of that...but that's probably what it is.

 

[PushDustIn]

Sorry for bringing up posts from a page ago. Just saw these posts and wanted to address them.

I love Source Gaming, but I wish they stuck to translations and data mining/evaluation. That's how the site became popular. It's always disappointing when the site updates and it's just some op-ed piece or top ten list or prediction. It feels like they have a content quota to fill.

Actually when I was just doing data mining, I saw very little traffic to the site. It might have been because I just started and because I'm not good at PR, but most people are not aware of how much information Source Gaming has unconvered about Smash in the one year it's existed. This is because other blogs report on the stuff we find, and we actually get only a little credit. It's been better recently but that's because I've demanded that sites stop reposting our full translations, and to at least mention us by name.

It wasn't until I expanded the amount of authors and the types of articles that we did that we actually see real growth in terms of popularity. I'd love to do translations, data mining and research more often but they take up a lot of time...and frankly no one is supporting the site (fanicially). I work a full time job, and run Source Gaming. The research I did into what characters are being requested in Japan took over 20 hours of research. I'm running the site completely out of my own pocket, in my own free time for the good of the community.

Someone is donating 5 dollars a month to my patreon so I'm currently at -15 dollars a month. In 7-8 months, I risk not being able to afford hosting for the next year as I will be moving back to the States. I'm working my butt off to expand the site so it can be self sustainable.

Over a month ago, I've made it my goal to post something everyday. We've been largely successful in doing that (we might have missed a day or two somewhere). Sometimes it's something very "meaty" but it can't always.

Either way, I try to make sure there's not just "I think BLAH, so therefore it is" kind of posts. There's usually some form of rational behind our thoughts. Even in this Ridley article, there's quotes to back up what Liquid said. There's data and quotes, and we source it.

On defending Sakurai:
We try to explain the rational behind some of the design choices. Sakurai is a guy that video taped himself, acting out the characters in Subspace Emissary just so the animators could animate the characters exactly how he wanted them. The color green on the Mario stage in 64 was fine tuned to Sakurai's TV.

Sakurai pays a ton of attention to little details. We try our best to show that in our posts. Frankly, explaining things with 'lol Sakurai bias' is lazy. There's a reason behind every little choice in Smash. It's not always a good reason, but I assure you it exists for some reason.

I think Spazzy_D's Case for ____ series does the best job of weighing a characters chances fairly. When people approach me to write a character article for Source Gaming, I tell them to read those posts. Again, there's quotes and rational behind what we are saying.

Why it can't be 100% "meaty"

1. Theres not enough time to always be researching
2. Most people get bored of the really heavy posts, and don't read them.
3. We have some long term projects that we are working on. Some you guys might not see or hear about until it's ready.
4. Content creation is difficult. If you don't keep your audience entertained, then they will move on. SG has a 60% repeat visitor rate almost daily. Having a daily post gives people reason to visit the site again, and remember that post we made.
5. "Meaty" and "non Meaty" have a certain lifespan. Now that Smash Wiki updated some of its articles to include some of the information we found, people have little reason to use our articles for their source. Most will be unaware of who researched it.

I've had a lot of people complain that our posts are too long. I'm looking into trying out podcasting in order to alleviate that issue, as I don't want to trim our content. 20,000+ read the first part of my 20+ page breakdown on Wario in Smash. ~4,000 read the second part. According to Google analytics the average time on the site is 3 minutes 30 seconds. I think it takes a lot more than 3 minutes 30 seconds to read a lot of our posts.

Sorry for the long post. That should at least explain some of the thought that is currently going into Source Gaming, and what our attitude towards content creation.

I'm not asking you to accept it, or like it. I'd like to do all research, etc but I can't. Not without collapsing from overworking myself or my team...or possibly imploding the site.

It's not all directed at you,Ryce as other people said some other things.

 

[Regulus Tera]

Like Samus and Zero Suit Samus?

I like to pretend the Samus in Smash is SA-X.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Ganondorf isn't changed because his moveset right now is popular and iconic of him in Smash.

Characters in Smash very rarely have any major changes. Smash 4 is the first game up specials have ever been changed, for example. Neutral specials have changed once, with the transition to side specials in Melee, and haven't been touched since.

Yoshi pretty much only got a new idle animation. Try walking or running with Yoshi and he suddenly "snaps" back to his Brawl pose. Bowser got as many animations as Ganondorf himself got in Brawl (a few new attack animations and new mobility animations). Pit and Falco have had a lot of changes in Smash 4 and Brawl but... still basically play the same.

 

[WonderRade]

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not upset that he was a clone in Melee. I get that it was a last-minute thing. But if they know they're going to include him in the subsequent games, why wouldn't they take the time to do the character justice? They must know they want him in the next Smash games, so why wouldn't they set aside a little time to change him up? They did it for Bowser, Luigi, Yoshi (at least cosmetically, I don't know if it they actually changed his moves), Pit... Why is Ganondorf seemingly the exception? They even pointed out how they changed Bowser and Yoshi to be more in line with their games. But Ganondorf is still stuck as a clone of an F-Zero character? I just don't buy it.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about with Link though. Could you please explain it in a different way?

Ganondorf was changed about the same degree as the other character you mentioned above during his transition to brawl and even a smaller degree into smash 4. What most people propose in regards to de-cloning Ganondorf is more of an overhaul rather than tweaking. No character has really ever been overhauled, falco is probably the closest in terms of his stats changing alot and giving him a tweaked down-b. So there isnt really a precedent for it. (Doesnt mean its impossible though)

Ganondorf being overhauled would probably wanna be handled in a very similar manner to the development of a new character based on my understanding of Sakurai's work ethic. Developing a new character, especially a non clone, is very time intensive, which means a de-cloning of Ganondorf has to be given a priority level over other character development.

Adding new characters is probably a higher priority as far as I can see rather than changing Ganondorf. In addition Sakurai seems very interested in preserving the feel of a character once they get into smash. Which means if we propose a black shadow moveset inheritance now we are essentially proposing the development of 1.5ish characters.

I would love Ganon to be de-cloned and something to take his current place and I do think it is possible; however I do not think it is likely. I mean as much as I love how Ganondorf is repped and developed in something like hyrule warriors, I would much rather have a new character than a ganon declone.

 

[Zubz]

Doesn't Mario Party 10 already hint towards a Waluigi Amiibo?

If anything, it could serve as a hint about us not getting Waluigi. The game showed models for Mario series Amiibos for Rosalina, DK, and Wario, and was compatible with those 3 characters. Despite being playable in MP10, Waluigi, Daisy, Magikoopa, Spike, and Toadette don't have any unlockable boards. Unless someone datamines the game and finds that there's on-disc content for boards with these characters, it seems like there were no plans for them to have Amiibo Stages, which means there were no plans for them to have Amiibo.

They're not going to release a separate line for Star Fox of all franchises when they already have a Falco Smash Amiibo on the way. Let's be realistic.

Yeah; the way Miyamoto said that it was specifically tied to Falco makes me think that Zero only supports the Falco Amiibo, and that it just swaps Falco with Fox to make him the player character.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Kamek isn't in MP10

 

[Ryce]

Ganondorf was changed about the same degree as the other character you mentioned above during his transition to brawl and even a smaller degree into smash 4. What most people propose in regards to de-cloning Ganondorf is more of an overhaul rather than tweaking. No character has really ever been overhauled, falco is probably the closest in terms of his stats changing alot and giving him a tweaked down-b. So there isnt really a precedent for it. (Doesnt mean its impossible though)

Ganondorf being overhauled would probably wanna be handled in a very similar manner to the development of a new character based on my understanding of Sakurai's work ethic. Developing a new character, especially a non clone, is very time intensive, which means a de-cloning of Ganondorf has to be given a priority level over other character development.

Adding new characters is probably a higher priority as far as I can see rather than changing Ganondorf. In addition Sakurai seems very interested in preserving the feel of a character once they get into smash. Which means if we propose a black shadow moveset inheritance now we are essentially proposing the development of 1.5ish characters.

I would love Ganon to be de-cloned and something to take his current place and I do think it is possible; however I do not think it is likely. I mean as much as I love how Ganondorf is repped and developed in something like hyrule warriors, I would much rather have a new character than a ganon declone.

Pit received three new specials and a new Final Smash. That definitely qualifies as an overhaul. If Ganondorf got three new specials he would be golden; I really don't have a problem with his standard attacks.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

Ganondorf was changed about the same degree as the other character you mentioned above during his transition to brawl and even a smaller degree into smash 4. What most people propose in regards to de-cloning Ganondorf is more of an overhaul rather than tweaking. No character has really ever been overhauled, falco is probably the closest in terms of his stats changing alot and giving him a tweaked down-b. So there isnt really a precedent for it. (Doesnt mean its impossible though)

Ganondorf being overhauled would probably wanna be handled in a very similar manner to the development of a new character based on my understanding of Sakurai's work ethic. Developing a new character, especially a non clone, is very time intensive, which means a de-cloning of Ganondorf has to be given a priority level over other character development.

Adding new characters is probably a higher priority as far as I can see rather than changing Ganondorf. In addition Sakurai seems very interested in preserving the feel of a character once they get into smash. Which means if we propose a black shadow moveset inheritance now we are essentially proposing the development of 1.5ish characters.

I would love Ganon to be de-cloned and something to take his current place and I do think it is possible; however I do not think it is likely. I mean as much as I love how Ganondorf is repped and developed in something like hyrule warriors, I would much rather have a new character than a ganon declone.

Yes, I do want an overhaul rather than tweaking. I was pointing out how he tries to bring other characters in line with their games but not Ganon. And yes I understand that would be a lot more work. I want him to do that work, even though I know he probably won't. "Feel of a character" be damned.

I think everyone is rushing to tell me that it's a lot of work to do what I desire, and I get that. But what I'm ACTUALLY saying is that it's a travesty that Ganondorf ended up as he did in Smash. I'm not proposing that they change it (although I would love for them to do that, and I think they should, I just know that they probably won't), I'm saying it's terrible that he ended up as he did. I'm thinking about what could have been or could be, and people think I don't understand how much effort that would be. I'm saying that his position is terrible and a real shame considering his potential. I don't think anyone would really argue that. Other posters seem to be stuck on the idea that I'm demanding changes now and giving me reasons why it can't happen. Guys, I get the reasons. I'm not making demands. I'm saying Ganon's position in Smash is shit, that's all.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ganondorf isn't changed because his moveset right now is popular and iconic of him in Smash.

Characters in Smash very rarely have any major changes. Smash 4 is the first game up specials have ever been changed, for example. Neutral specials have changed once, with the transition to side specials in Melee, and haven't been touched since.

That's just an interpretation, so you can't really say that with certainty.

The way I see it, Ganondorf has always been a low priority character for Sakurai's team. I don't think it has anything to do with being popular or iconic, Sakurai just seems to be content with the way he plays now. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of Ganondorf mains would be absolutely okay with an overhaul (even minor overhauls like the ones Yoshi and Wario received, would be appreciated).

Also you're actually wrong, since Brawl had special changes as well (Falco, Bowser).

 

[WonderRade]

Pit received three new specials and a new Final Smash. That definitely qualifies as an overhaul. If Ganondorf got three new specials he would be golden; I really don't have a huge problem with his standard attacks.

I'll agree is that pit is the most changed character but I wouldnt call it an overhaul. Especially when all 3 specials funstion very similiarly to how they were previously. Pit's kit overall isnt that big of a departure from brawl. Main differences being:

1. Up-b is probably the biggest change overall
2. Side-b Is now a kill move and a little bit worse of a reflector
3. Down-b Now covers both sides

Admittedly I would be arguing perceptions here, but I'll say this for clarifications sake.

Giving pit a Uprising makeover still didnt cause a huge shift in pit both thematically and mechanically. Changing Ganondorf to match a lot of the perceived losses of the character by fans would either result in a full character redesign or a variety of tweaks; with the former being a large work investment and the latter being (IMO) somewhat shallow.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Pit's down special is basically the same, just on both sides now. It's fundamentally the same move.

Pit also still basically plays the same as he did in Brawl.

Also you're actually wrong, since Brawl had special changes as well (Falco, Bowser).

Falco and Bowser's neutral specials (and up specials) remained the same. No neutral special has ever been changed since Jigglypuff and Link in Melee, where it got moved to their side special. Smash 4 is the first time up specials were touched.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

-ignore-

 

[Ryce]

As an aside, there’s still plenty of time to announce a special presentation for the 30th:

April 4, 2014 - Smash Bros. Direct announced for April 8 (4 days in advance)
July 11, 2014 - newcomer reveal announced for July 14 (3 days in advance)
October 20, 2014 - 50-Fact Extravaganza announced for October 23 (3 days in advance)

It’s also been over 100 days since the previous DLC characters were released. That’s a really long time.

 

[PK Gaming]

No, Pit definitely received an overhaul. His character was basically changed from the ground up, even if many of his "new" moves have similar functions. For reference:

+He has different properties on virtually all of his normals. Even if they look similar (forward tilt, down tilt, forward smash, etc), they've been changed in terms of speed, damage and range (mostly for the better)
+Outright has new normals (forward air and up tilt)
+New Final Smash
+New Specials
+His design, voice and run animation is straight from KI:U. His rolls/dodges even have the dodge sound effect from KI:U!

Pit's down special is basically the same, just on both sides now. It's fundamentally the same move.

Pit also still basically plays the same as he did in Brawl.



Falco and Bowser's neutral specials (and up specials) remained the same. No neutral special has ever been changed since Jigglypuff and Link in Melee, where it got moved to their side special. Smash 4 is the first time up specials were touched.

Don't forget Ness.

 

[Green Mamba]

A lot of Brawl veterans had their normals overhauled like Pit's were--Diddy, R.O.B., Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, Charizard, and Wario, among others, all had most of their normals edited, changed, and touched up to some point. I think it's fair to say that Pit still resembles his Brawl incarnation pretty closely. Two of his specials are quite different, but his normals received about as much of a once over as most other Brawl vets.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

Thanks for speaking up Source Gaming! I get what you are saying about traffic and all. And rationales from Sakurai too. I just do not like the stance that a lot of the site authors take that, just because there is a rationale, the outcome of that rationale is 100 per cent good and justified and desirable. May not always be the case in the opinion of a lot of fans.

 

[IntelliHeath]

As an aside, there’s still plenty of time to announce a special presentation for the 30th:

April 4, 2014 - Smash Bros. Direct announced for April 8 (4 days in advance)
July 11, 2014 - newcomer reveal announced for July 14 (3 days in advance)
October 20, 2014 - 50-Fact Extravaganza announced for October 23 (3 days in advance)

It’s also been over 100 days since the previous DLC characters were released. That’s a really long time.

I still hope so. My wallet is ready for anything to happens. We might hear something from tonight to Tuesday from the company to see if we would expect anything more than Super Mario Maker stage.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I think we're misunderstanding each other. I'm not upset that he was a clone in Melee. I get that it was a last-minute thing. But if they know they're going to include him in the subsequent games, why wouldn't they take the time to do the character justice? They must know they want him in the next Smash games, so why wouldn't they set aside a little time to change him up? They did it for Bowser, Luigi, Yoshi (at least cosmetically, I don't know if it they actually changed his moves), Pit... Why is Ganondorf seemingly the exception? They even pointed out how they changed Bowser and Yoshi to be more in line with their games. But Ganondorf is still stuck as a clone of an F-Zero character? I just don't buy it.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're talking about with Link though. Could you please explain it in a different way?

But they did though? Also I remember him justifying that people have gotten used to clone character movesets, that what he did to Ganondorf is a settlement. Has new stuff but remains familiar. Also the characters you mentioned aren't clones in particular.

I mentioned Link because Smash treats various Links differently, even Young Link.

 

[Ryce]

I still hope so. My wallet is ready for anything to happens. We might hear something from tonight to Tuesday from the company to see if we would expect anything more than Super Mario Maker stage.

I'm optimistic. The stage theory is really convincing. The select screen is missing a box in the videos and "stage_4" is missing from the site. Those are some very closely related coincidences.

 

[Beren the Empty-Handed]

But they did though? Also I remember him justifying that people have gotten used to clone character movesets, that what he did to Ganondorf is a settlement. Has new stuff but remains familiar. Also the characters you mentioned aren't clones in particular.

I mentioned Link because Smash treats various Links differently, even Young Link.

But they didn't though. He's no closer to his games' representation than he was in the previous 2 games. One custom move comes kind of close, even though it functions the same as a Falcon Punch still.

I never said they were clones... Bowser was made to be upright like how he is in Super Mario, Yoshi was made more upright, Luigi was given his special jump... I wasn't trying to compare them to clones. I'm trying to illustrate how they were made to be more in line with their respective games, while Ganon is still stuck where he is.

 

[NeonZ]

But they didn't though. He's no closer to his games' representation than he was in the previous 2 games. One custom move comes kind of close, even though it functions the same as a Falcon Punch still.

I never said they were clones... Bowser was made to be upright like how he is in Super Mario, Yoshi was made more upright, Luigi was given his special jump... I wasn't trying to compare them to clones. I'm trying to illustrate how they were made to be more in line with their respective games, while Ganon is still stuck where he is.

Ganondorf has received tweaks to be closer to the source, although mainly in Brawl. The issue is that it's all compromised in order to fit the C.Falcon based moveset. His Forward+B, for example, is similar to the way he kills a sage in Twilight Princess, the air grab version has an animation similar to the ground punch from the Ocarina of Time final battle, his Foward+A is a kick that he uses in TP's final battle, he uses two backhand punches in Wind Waker and the motion of his Warlock Punch was changed to a backhand punch in Brawl.

The issue with all that though, like I mentioned before, is that it's either heavily compromised in order to fit his moveset, like turning the ground punch into part of a grab or making the backhand punch a slow special attack, rather than just a fast backhand punch without effects like in Wind Waker, or they're very minor elements that wouldn't even be picked up if they weren't building his moveset from the Falcon base in the first place.

Although the special grab and forward A kick are cool, those just aren't the elements that leave the biggest impression out of TP Ganondorf. Sames goes to him using backhand punches in Wind Waker. No one would be whining if they weren't there and many people don't even notice that they're references. They only were chosen to be used in Smash in the first place because they wanted to keep that physical weaponless moveset, rather than because they're good choices to represent Ganondorf's abilities.

 

[Green Mamba]

Of all the returning veterans in SSB4 you would have thought Ganondorf and Toon Link would have received some of the most changes, but they're like two of the absolute least changed.

 

[Boss Doggie]

Oh yeah, the ballot is almost over huh? Thank god the drama and insanity from it will be over soon.

But they didn't though. He's no closer to his games' representation than he was in the previous 2 games. One custom move comes kind of close, even though it functions the same as a Falcon Punch still.

I never said they were clones... Bowser was made to be upright like how he is in Super Mario, Yoshi was made more upright, Luigi was given his special jump... I wasn't trying to compare them to clones. I'm trying to illustrate how they were made to be more in line with their respective games, while Ganon is still stuck where he is.

Hey, Star Fox cast don't really perform martial arts in their games and at most only shoot stuff, so the line probably doesn't apply to most characters. I get what you're trying to say, but that's what happens when you end up being a clone from Melee.

In some respects I'm glad Wolf wasn't picked back then.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

There will be some drama from who ever is chosen from the ballot but I am sure that whoever it is, people will yell about how amazing the character is until any one who is upset at the chosen ones is silenced, as is usual with Smash fans

 

[Regulus Tera]

Some K. Rool fans already do that with the rest of DLC candidates so same shit, different day.

Of all the returning veterans in SSB4 you would have thought Ganondorf and Toon Link would have received some of the most changes, but they're like two of the absolute least changed.

As a Toon Link main, I'm perfectly okay with that.

 

[javadoze]

Oh yeah, the ballot is almost over huh? Thank god the drama and insanity from it will be over soon.

The insanity will never end until the Smash4 DLC team disbands.

Spoiler

...Then the SmashV speculation shall begin.

 

[Ryce]

Speaking of Ganondorf, I’ve always hated the “Ganondorf fights like an F-Zero racer” complaint. That implies Captain Falcon has explicit F-Zero references in his move set, but he just uses generic fighting techniques invented for Smash Bros. The proper claim should be “Ganondorf fights like a generic martial artist,” which honestly isn’t that farfetched. It works for him, in a Heihachi/Gouken old master sort of way. He just needs a projectile and maybe a teleport for me to be content with his depiction.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Honestly I think the custom sword Neutral B can become his default, and give him a new Down B and maybe tweak his Up B more. Also tweak the animations and speed on some aerials.

And I understand the utility of Utilt but it's so hard to use.

Basically Ganondorf just needs a few adjustments before he truly leaves his roots as a Falcon clone. I think specials are his closest connections to Falcon, and even so Side B is fine and Neural B is almost fine.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I'm optimistic. The stage theory is really convincing. The select screen is missing a box in the videos and "stage_4" is missing from the site. Those are some very closely related coincidences.

Yeah, I could see that. Is everyone so sure that stage #4 isn't Suzaku Castle? I wonder if they just skipped number 4 because it's already assigned to the stage despite that it's not available as individual stage.

Oh yeah, the ballot is almost over huh? Thank god the drama and insanity from it will be over soon.

Only 8 more days for Ballot, I'm under the assumption with the deadline being Oct 3rd 11:59PM.

There will be some drama from who ever is chosen from the ballot but I am sure that whoever it is, people will yell about how amazing the character is until any one who is upset at the chosen ones is silenced, as is usual with Smash fans

Why shitpost? It's not time for that right now.

The insanity will never end until the Smash4 DLC team disbands.

Spoiler

...Then the SmashV speculation shall begin.

My body isn't ready for Smash V speculation.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Maybe his forward Smash could work a bit like Mega Man's? Charges up an orb that when launched, breaks into four orbs that fly and come back in, in sort of an egg pattern?

Also maybe change a few of Falcon's moves and let Ganondorf keep them. Stuff like Ganondorf's down throw looks great on Ganondorf, just chucking the dude on the ground with one hand. That seems a better fit on Ganondorf.

Down Smash: Holds his fist in the air and them slams it down forcibly, sending a shockwave out

Up Smash: Already unique

Tilts: All unique, jab is unique as well.

Forward Air: Unique, but add if he hits the ground mid animation, it hands with a slam and shockwave

Back Air: Change Falcons', as I can't think of a back air that works for Ganondorf besides a back handed punch

Up Air: Slams his fist into his palm over his head

Down Air: Holds an orb over his head and then chucks it downward.

Up Throw, Ganondorf lifts the enemy over his head with one hand (like a pizza), charges them with energy and then jerks them into the air with a blast.

Back Throw: Ganondorf grabs them by the skull, flips around and throws them into the air launching four yellow orbs out that fly out and then home into the target

Forward Throw: Ganondorf takes both of his hands and formidably grabs the character's skull, releases electric energy, then opens his hands quickly, launching the enemy.

And keep his side and neutral specials. I'm not sure what to do with up or down specials.

I want the rest of Ganondorf's moves to be brutal, "I hold the most power in the entire world of Nintendo and I know how to use it" While still keeping him as the heavy brawler that he is.

Of all the returning veterans in SSB4 you would have thought Ganondorf and Toon Link would have received some of the most changes, but they're like two of the absolute least changed.

Link got a new roll and a new dash attack, which made Toon Link more unique. I do wish they'd change Link's forward smash as well and let Toon Link keep his more useful fsmash.

Also I never really noticed how silly Link's down throw was until I saw Toon Link do it, and thought it was a cute move and then noticed fully grown Link rolls around on the enemy using his shield and it looks stupid. So change that on Link as well.

 

[Ryce]

Yeah, I could see that. Is everyone so sure that stage #4 isn't Suzaku Castle? I wonder if they just skipped number 4 because it's already assigned to the stage despite that it's not available as individual stage.

Suzaku Castle came out long before Peach's Castle and Hyrule Castle, so it being #4 wouldn't really make any sense.

 

[Zubz]

My body isn't ready for Smash V speculation.

Well, that's too bad. Because the second we see "Character Bundle #2" hit the eShop, it's coming. The only exception is if they announce that more DLC's coming to Smash 4, so it's not like the ride's going to end. And we're all going to enjoy every minute of it. Even UglyRareCharacter.

There are two constants in this universe: Death, and Smash Bros. speculation. And the two constants shall never meet.

 

[UglyRareCharacter]

Sorry that was not a sh*tpost! But hypothetically does any one think there are characters who could of been chosen that all the message boards will not go out of the way to say "they did not win fan polls but who cares they are amazing in every way so don't ever be unhappy?"? I know NeoGaf for certain would not shed a tear if the final DLC was Pichu and Shovel Knight and Chorus Kids, and nothing more.

 

[Ryce]

But hypothetically does any one think there are characters who could of been chosen that all the message boards will not go out of the way to say "they did not win fan polls but who cares they are amazing in every way so don't ever be unhappy?"?

Hmm...

You can't bring up Pichu, K. Rool, Isaac, Daisy, Waluigi, Shantae, or Shovel Knight without starting some kind of war. Even the Chorus Kids are a touchy subject.

Wolf, Dixie Kong, and Inkling are probably the least contentious among the popular characters. I don't think the masses would be upset to see those three -- they're generally understood to be important, deserving characters. There's also Snake, but there are still some people who don't think he fits Smash Bros.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Suzaku Castle came out long before Peach's Castle and Hyrule Castle, so it being #4 wouldn't really make any sense.

I dunno. I might have a weird theory about that but I guess I better wait until we see next stage update (in either way)

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Maybe you should just be happy we're getting DLC at all

I get disappointment about your favorite character not being selected but goddamn

You people can be pathological

 

[IntelliHeath]

Maybe you should just be happy we're getting DLC at all

I get disappointment about your favorite character not being selected but goddamn

You people can be pathological

Hey, don't put me with those group!

 

[Ryce]

I'd be happy with any character at this point. I'm just tired of waiting.

 

[IntelliHeath]

I'd be happy with any character at this point. I'm just tired of waiting.

Same here. I just want to see who would be first Nintendo Newcomer for DLC.

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Hey, don't put me with those group!

Ooooh I'd never dream of saying that about you, Heath. You've suffered disappointment and done so tactfully.

 

[Mizerman]

I'd be happy with any character at this point. I'm just tired of waiting.

Eh. I can agree to that.

 

[SaikyoBro]

But hypothetically does any one think there are characters who could of been chosen that all the message boards will not go out of the way to say "they did not win fan polls but who cares they are amazing in every way so don't ever be unhappy?"?

I feel like we already kind of got that situation with Ryu but there aren't very many other characters like him at this point. He was just a character we assumed was out of the equation thanks to some (possibly poorly translated) comments Sakurai had made in the past, but once he was leaked and eventually shown off I really didn't hear that much complaining about him.

I don't know if there are any other characters that could be "hiding under our noses" like that so to speak, but it's fun to think about characters we never would have expected but would make sense anyway. Maybe someone like Simon Belmont or another third party NES character? There's not really any reason to expect him but I'm sure a ton of people would be happy to see him, he makes sense in a lot of ways (and with Mega Man and Ryu debunking the implied "one character per third party company" rule, it wouldn't even rule out Snake!).

 

[Ryce]

I don't know if there are any other characters that could be "hiding under our noses" like that so to speak, but it's fun to think about characters we never would have expected but would make sense anyway.

I've always seen Excitebiker as that kind of character -- he's never requested, but he's from an iconic multi-million seller and would have a very distinct play style. Bowser Jr. proves that vehicle-riding characters are technically viable, and it's easy to envision a motocross-themed move set.

 

[IntelliHeath]

Ooooh I'd never dream of saying that about you, Heath. You've suffered disappointment and done so tactfully.

That's quite true.

RIP Playable Status. At least, I have good luck to summoned him in my battles, and always aid me to my victories!

Snake, Wolf and Isaac, I'm not giving up on all three of you yet until Sakurai said that he's done with downloadable contents.

I've always seen Excitebiker as that kind of character -- he's never requested, but he's from an iconic multi-million seller and would have a very distinct play style. Bowser Jr. proves that vehicle-riding characters are technically viable, and it's easy to envision a motocross-themed move set.

Heck, I don't mind to see Excitebiker since I'm pretty sure that his moveset would be entertaining as if it's possible.

 

[SaikyoBro]

I've always seen Excitebiker as that kind of character -- he's never requested, but he's from an iconic multi-million seller and would have a very distinct play style. Bowser Jr. proves that vehicle-riding characters are technically viable, and it's easy to envision a motocross-themed move set.

Yeah I feel like Excitebiker is almost an inevitability at some point. Him and a handful of other NES Action Series characters (Balloon Fighter and to a lesser extent Urban Champion and Bubbles from Clu Clu Land) are all from really well-known games and I feel like at some point they're just going to happen. Maybe not many people are clamoring for them, but I don't think anyone would be able to complain about them either.